No Hands.

As a newbie can I ask a question that might be old hat in terms of the forum? ( and I hope this is the correct subforum) Are there any churches left in the London area that are not Anglo Catholic and do not wave their hands in the air, or deploy guitars and screens?

Comments

  • As a newbie can I ask a question that might be old hat in terms of the forum? ( and I hope this is the correct subforum) Are there any churches left in the London area that are not Anglo Catholic and do not wave their hands in the air, or deploy guitars and screens?

    I should have made it clear that I meant Anglican churches.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    O, I daresay there are quite a few - for instance, those advertising 'Parish Eucharist' or 'Parish Communion' as their principal Sunday service!

    They may well be what are sometimes called 'central' or 'middle-of-the-road' (MOTR) churches, but they're none the worse for that, IMHO.

    Try searching the C of E website 'A Church Near You'. If
    their entries are up-to-date, you should get a fair idea of what a church might be like.

    If you're thinking of really central Central London, St Martin-in-the-Fields springs to mind, but there are many others, I'm sure.
  • Thank you.
  • My pleasure - and I'm sure other denizens of Eccles will be along in due course with more suggestions!
  • Are you sure that hand waving is entirely absent from Anglo-Catholic churches? It (and guitars) are certainly not absent from Roman Catholic churches, even conservative ones, and even ones that have otherwise relatively traditional liturgies (such as ones in immigrant communities here in the US)).

    Taize in Anglo-Catholic churches can get a little hand-wavy and guitar-y, for example - and I have certainly heard guitar-y Vatican-II style hymns in Anglo-Catholic churches, although they were accompanied by organ (as they unfortunately also are in many RCC churches, which often makes them sound pretty awful).

    I've definitely seen screens in RCC churches too. Do they have them in any Anglo-Catholic churches? I'm sure it's a possibility.

    What exactly is the definition of Anglo-Catholic here? Is it all about music and hand gestures?
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Interestingly, though about 18000 kms from London, I am in a diocese in which the boss is happy to raise his hands in the air when not crossing himself
  • As does our (very) evangelical Father Helping-Us-Out! And as, indeed, do I, on occasions when suitably moved.....
    :wink:
  • As a newbie can I ask a question that might be old hat in terms of the forum? ( and I hope this is the correct subforum) Are there any churches left in the London area that are not Anglo Catholic and do not wave their hands in the air, or deploy guitars and screens?

    I personally find this a very interesting request, as whenever I am visiting London, or indeed any other part of the UK, I would love to find a church that has all the things that the original poster is trying to avoid!

    What I would love to find, although it probably doesn’t exist, is an Anglo Catholic Church (preferably more of the FinF type) with a variety of music including modern worship songs led by a good quality music group. I would be quite happy with some hand waving etc if appropriate and I might even find myself joining in if it’s all done decently and in order within meaningful liturgy. Screens wouldn’t bother me as long as they didn’t detract from the altar.
  • As a newbie can I ask a question that might be old hat in terms of the forum? ( and I hope this is the correct subforum) Are there any churches left in the London area that are not Anglo Catholic and do not wave their hands in the air, or deploy guitars and screens?

    I personally find this a very interesting request, as whenever I am visiting London, or indeed any other part of the UK, I would love to find a church that has all the things that the original poster is trying to avoid!

    What I would love to find, although it probably doesn’t exist, is an Anglo Catholic Church (preferably more of the FinF type) with a variety of music including modern worship songs led by a good quality music group. I would be quite happy with some hand waving etc if appropriate and I might even find myself joining in if it’s all done decently and in order within meaningful liturgy. Screens wouldn’t bother me as long as they didn’t detract from the altar.

    HTB Queensgate (formerly St Augustine, South Kensington) offers an Anglo-Catholic Sung Eucharist. It might be charismatic also.
    Otherwise, St Joseph the Worker, Northolt or St Barnabas, Northolt might be worth trying.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I would be quite happy with some hand waving etc if appropriate and I might even find myself joining in if it’s all done decently and in order within meaningful liturgy. Screens wouldn’t bother me as long as they didn’t detract from the altar.

    Screens by their very being attract attention and thereby detract from what is going on at the altar. Even if what is being shown is a close-up of the altar, that means that there will be some looking at the screen version and thereby detract from the unity of our worship.

    Hand-waving and doing things decently seem an oxymoron to me

  • Catholic MaxCatholic Max Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    Gee D wrote: »
    I would be quite happy with some hand waving etc if appropriate and I might even find myself joining in if it’s all done decently and in order within meaningful liturgy. Screens wouldn’t bother me as long as they didn’t detract from the altar.

    Screens by their very being attract attention and thereby detract from what is going on at the altar. Even if what is being shown is a close-up of the altar, that means that there will be some looking at the screen version and thereby detract from the unity of our worship.

    Hand-waving and doing things decently seem an oxymoron to me

    Church of the Nativity, Timonium is a very influential Church in the Catholic-Christian tradition and uses a lot of technology in their Sunday Masses, and yet is highly orthodox both theologically and liturgically.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    As an aside, in the liturgy when the priest says 'Lift up your hearts' and we say 'We lift them up to the Lord,' I always feel an instinct (which I suppress) to mime removing my heart and lifting it up to God! I'm not a hand waver, but when the words talk about lifting, I always want my body to be doing what my words are saying. I wonder whether there are any churches where people do raise their hands in parts of the liturgy.
  • fineline wrote: »
    As an aside, in the liturgy when the priest says 'Lift up your hearts' and we say 'We lift them up to the Lord,' I always feel an instinct (which I suppress) to mime removing my heart and lifting it up to God! I'm not a hand waver, but when the words talk about lifting, I always want my body to be doing what my words are saying. I wonder whether there are any churches where people do raise their hands in parts of the liturgy.

    I've been Roman Catholic churches where the congregation lift up their hands at "lift up your hearts."

  • It’s fairly common practice, as is gesturing both hands towards the presider when responding “and with your spirit”.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host
    Ah, that's interesting. I would like a service where we did those gestures, but no Catholic church I've been to has done it. Only the beating of the breasts for 'by my fault, by my fault, by my most grievous fault.'
  • fineline wrote: »
    Ah, that's interesting. I would like a service where we did those gestures, but no Catholic church I've been to has done it. Only the beating of the breasts for 'by my fault, by my fault, by my most grievous fault.'

    You may have also at least heard of RC parishes where the congregations joins hands for the Our Father and the lifts their joined hands at the "for the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever."

    I've seen the above at a variety of parishes, but at in a Dominican (as in from the Dominican Republic, not the Dominican Order) RC congregation in the US that was particularly charismatic, in addition to plenty of hand-waiving, I've also heard something akin to hushed speaking in tongues at the elevations of the host and chalice (along with strumming a guitar). I'm not sure if it is actual speaking in tongues or speaking in Spanish words that they feel just "flow through them" in the moment. I went to a charismatic prayer group at the same church and heard a lot of the same.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    I would be quite happy with some hand waving etc if appropriate and I might even find myself joining in if it’s all done decently and in order within meaningful liturgy. Screens wouldn’t bother me as long as they didn’t detract from the altar.

    Screens by their very being attract attention and thereby detract from what is going on at the altar. Even if what is being shown is a close-up of the altar, that means that there will be some looking at the screen version and thereby detract from the unity of our worship.

    Hand-waving and doing things decently seem an oxymoron to me

    I think that silent awe and reverent spoken/sung prayer on the one hand and ecstatic joyful waving, clapping, even dancing, are all perfectly appropriate responses to the proclamation, offering, and reception of the gospel and the eucharist. Different congregations have different cultures and visitors should respect them - although no one is ever forced to wave hands if they don't want to!

    As for screens, I'm sure that once was and to some degree still is criticism to putting printed material in the pews or handing them out as a distraction from active listening to readings and prayers, as well as from keeping one's sights on the liturgical action. A screen actually focuses everyone's attention more on the same thing than multiple prayer books, bibles, hymnals, etc. (not to mention service leaflets and parish bulletins). Plus, in big older churches there are often quite a few seats with no view of the altar or a partially obstructed view. Therefore, unless one wants to contemplate the column in front of them, having a screen helps one better visually participate in what is going on. I'm not an advocate of screens in all places. But in very large churches, I definitely understand their use. They may be useful who have poor eyesight and may not be able to make out very clearly what is happening near the altar at all if it is particularly far away. Screens also help the connection between a preacher and the congregants in far away seats who have trouble seeing the preacher's face clearly.

    When screens display the text to prayers and songs, they do a lot to help unify the congregation's worship, especially for those people who come every Sunday and never crack open a hymnal and often mumble through the prayers they don't know or spend the entire time the creed is said flipping through a book trying to find it.

    Finally, my interest in more traditional catholic liturgy was largely spurred by wanting to see and understand all the little gestures and actions being done around the altar, but I often can't see all of them from where I am sitting. Screens could actually help draw more deeply into the liturgy someone like me who was relatively new to this style of worship and/or new to in general and could there fully aid greatly in evangelism.
  • I’ve never been a fan of screens in church, generally speaking.

    With that out of the way, I went to a funeral in a church I had not been in before. I found it to be a very attractive and worshipful space.

    We were halfway into the funeral before I realized there were screens in the walls on each side of the chancel. They were not used during the funeral, and when off they were unobtrusive and blended in well with the walls themselves. My hunch is they are used selectively, when they can assist rather than detract—such as by providing lyrics or texts. (There were hymnals in the pews.)

    It did make me wonder if even I could tolerate and get used to screens, at least in sine circumstances.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited December 2018

    Church of the Nativity, Timonium is a very influential Church in the Catholic-Christian tradition and uses a lot of technology in their Sunday Masses, and yet is highly orthodox both theologically and liturgically.

    I'm afraid that I have not had the time to watch more than the first few minutes of that link. I'd never say that hand waving etc was not theologically orthodox, not as sure I'd say it's liturgically so.

    As to screens, I'd like to think more about your comments and those of others. They are useful at funerals - here it is pretty common to use them to show a series of photos from infancy to death and that's clearly a legitimate role for them.
  • ....You may have also at least heard of RC parishes where the congregations joins hands for the Our Father and the lifts their joined hands at the "for the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever." ...
    Sounds a bit like doing the hokey-cokey to me.
  • It rather depends on where the screens are. The one I walked out on Sunday was in front of the chancel, high altar and triptych behind the high altar, positioned against the rood screen on the nave side. It wasn't going to project the action, just the words and films/pictures not necessarily in synchronicity, if the last time I saw this was anything to go on. The screens I am not polite about in a couple of other places are also in front of the chancel or cover the religious picture behind the altar.
  • Thank you everyone for your replies.
    I have to say though that I perhaps was not clear enough in what I was seeking..which was Anglican churches in London where there is no danger of encountering screens, which I find distracting, or hands-in-the-air which I find frankly embarrassing. I am a member of a well known Anglo Catholic church and wondered where I might experience a very different type of Eucharistic celebration, one that conforms closely to the BCP rubric.
  • I've always had the impression that the Chapels Royal e.g. the one at St James's Palace do that kind of thing well- anyone know from experience? Also heard good things of the Royal Naval College Chapel at Greenwich in that line, tho' again I've never been there.
  • Albertus wrote: »
    I've always had the impression that the Chapels Royal e.g. the one at St James's Palace do that kind of thing well- anyone know from experience? Also heard good things of the Royal Naval College Chapel at Greenwich in that line, tho' again I've never been there.

    Thanks for that. Actually, we live near Hampton Court and I plan to attend their choral Eucharist soon. I have heard good things.
  • St. Helen's in Bishopsgate don't use clapping, dancing and hand-waving as far as I know (at least not very much.) I fear though, that they do make use of the dreadful OHP.
  • They have also stepped out of the Apostolic Tradition.
  • Mark Betts wrote: »
    St. Helen's in Bishopsgate don't use clapping, dancing and hand-waving as far as I know (at least not very much.) I fear though, that they do make use of the dreadful OHP.
    They don't use any kind of projection. Only LCD TVs
  • Mark BettsMark Betts Shipmate
    edited December 2018
    They have also stepped out of the Apostolic Tradition.

    What do you mean by that?
  • Thank you everyone for your replies.
    I have to say though that I perhaps was not clear enough in what I was seeking..which was Anglican churches in London where there is no danger of encountering screens, which I find distracting, or hands-in-the-air which I find frankly embarrassing. I am a member of a well known Anglo Catholic church and wondered where I might experience a very different type of Eucharistic celebration, one that conforms closely to the BCP rubric.
    There must be hundreds of places that meet that criteria. Where in London are you looking? It’s a huge place.
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