Morning & Evening Prayer

2

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  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    my usual times (11am and 9pm.) This quirk is well-enough known that if I am being particularly obnoxious or cranky, Mrs. PDR, and also her best friend will ask 'have you read Matins/Evensong?' quote]
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    edited June 17
    11 am!!! That is really late in the day for MP!
    (I cannot pray after I have eaten breakfast, but I guess that is a thing divides the world into those who can and those who can't pray on a full stomach)

    I have had that very question ("Did you pray this morning?") put to me on several occasions but to me it is like the old "Are you getting your period?" response - makes me even more furious
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    My body clock is off by about 2 hours, which is a nuisance, but I have not being able to reset myself to a more normal schedule.

    I know what you mean about the 'Did you pray this morning?' line. It can result in the person who says it getting the death ray stare.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    I find that if I don't do MP first thing, other issues intervene, and it just doesn't get done, for the most part.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    You and 99.5% of (lay) Christendom!
  • I've started doing morning and evening prayer according to the Irish BCP... I notice there is a lot of flipping around of pages, which I can get used to, though I wonder if other BCP's have a more streamlined format.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I am usually on US 1928, and use a combined BCP and Bible. I have to flip four times - for the psalms, the OT lesson, the NT lesson and the collect. I think that is pretty standard.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    CW:DP can be a flipping nuisance too.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    The worst was the Anglican Breviary....
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I've said this before when threads have come up on this subject. I think there's a great value in accepting the discipline of using the form of prayer that is provided by the ecclesiastical household to which you belong. If you're CofE, that means Morning or Evening Prayer from either the 1662 BCP or Common Worship.

    As an introduction to that discipline, Common Worship also suggests using its Prayer during the Day as a a framework to wrap around a daily Quiet Time and Bible study.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    And what if you're a Presbyterian/ Church of Scotland?
    Says she who is using Taize now - brain fried by chemo so slipped down the candle
    I do say a decade of the Rosary and an Our Lady Untier of Knots prayer ( writ by Pope Francis in May 2013) at the end though
  • Galilit wrote: »
    And what if you're a Presbyterian/ Church of Scotland?
    Says she who is using Taize now - brain fried by chemo so slipped down the candle
    I do say a decade of the Rosary and an Our Lady Untier of Knots prayer ( writ by Pope Francis in May 2013) at the end though

    I believe the Book of Common Order includes an order for daily prayer, though I don't think it has a lectionary for it.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited June 19
    Galilit wrote: »
    And what if you're a Presbyterian/ Church of Scotland?
    If you're willing to go outside the Church of Scotland but still stay Presbyterian, the PC(USA)'s Book of Common Worship has full orders for Daily Prayer (Morning, Midday, Evening, Night), complete with seasonal variations, psalms and lectionary. (Two lectionaries, in fact. There is a two-year lectionary, and there is the three-year Revised Common Lectionary, where the reading for Monday–Wednesday are linked to the RCL readings for the previous Sunday, while the readings for Thursday–Saturday are linked to the RCL readings for the following Sunday.)

    If you don't want the full 1216-page, 2.8-lb. book, there is a 672-page, 14 oz. Daily Prayer edition available here.

    Or, there is an app available. You can find info on that here. While I like holding a book, the app does make it easy as there is no juggling of books—everything, including the readings (from the two-year lectionary, I think), is in the app.
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    What causes all the flipping in books like The Anglican Breviary is the space-saving practice of not repeating a text. So there's a series of layers one must navigate: the ordinary of the hour, ordinary of the season, common of saints, proper of saints, etc. The whole structure can be lovely and elegant and rational while hard as heck to figure out.

    My current office book (when not praying in person with my monastic community) is the new incarnation of A Monastic Breviary from the Order of the Holy Cross, in a small binder. The one thing you have to decide on is whether the basis of the current hour will be the regular office of the day or one of the commons. Once that's determined, you turn there and need to flip back only for the psalms (given in full and in order). The readings need to be looked up in a separate Bible in any case. But the invitatory psalm and antiphons, and the office hymn and Gospel canticle, as well as the standard opening and closing materials, are all given in that one place where you started the hour.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    Well for about a century within the Reformed traditions individuals have been publishing their own form of daily prayer; a classic would be A Diary of Prayer by John Baillie but there are others. Also there is the PCUSA Daily Prayer1, but the URC one1 is in my opinion unuseable.

    However, I would take the Reformed Freedom in Worship as a given and do what I liked. That over the years has included:
    My own versions are eclectic and combine stuff from a number of offices. This is almost essential as someone committed to using the Iona Office which needs supplementing for morning and evening prayer.

    So I would say you have a full license within the Reformed tradition to do whatever you want.

    1You will need to scroll down the pdf to find them
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Also there is the PCUSA Daily Prayer1….

    1You will need to scroll down the pdf to find them
    FWIW, the PDF at that link is the 1993 BCW. The version to which I linked above is the 2018 BCW. There is not significant difference between them in the orders for Daily Prayer, but there is some. (I think the app I mentioned uses the orders as they appear in the 1993 BCW.) Given that the PDF is the whole book, I suppose that if you have a program that can edit PDFs, you could cut everything except the Daily Prayer section, the psalms and the daily lectionary to make it a little more manageable.
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    So I would say you have a full license within the Reformed tradition to do whatever you want.
    Totally agree.

    And @Galilit, I’ll add that I’ve used Praise God: Common Prayer at Taizé from time to time over the years.

  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited June 20
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've said this before when threads have come up on this subject. I think there's a great value in accepting the discipline of using the form of prayer that is provided by the ecclesiastical household to which you belong. If you're CofE, that means Morning or Evening Prayer from either the 1662 BCP or Common Worship.

    As an introduction to that discipline, Common Worship also suggests using its Prayer during the Day as a a framework to wrap around a daily Quiet Time and Bible study.

    House rules is pretty much what keeps me on the BCP. Left to my own devices I would probably use Matins and Vespers out of the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal which are (a) a lot simpler, and (b) have a decent lectionary.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate


    Jengie Jon wrote: »

    However, I would take the Reformed Freedom in Worship as a given and do what I liked. That over the years has included:


    Oh yes! Reformed Freedom is one of my Immovable Foundations of Faith!
    That is a wee cutie - till it got over-cute and I went back to BCP 1662. I have beeswax under my fingernails from going up and down the candle

    I chop and change a lot - every 6 months or so
  • I guess if you wanted to be super Presbyterian you could use only the psalter.
  • Jengie Jon wrote: »

    I gotta ask... what is "the Celtic Tradition"?
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    edited June 20
    Now I am going to have to ask you what you are asking because there are a number of replies.

    First I take it that you have heard of "Celtic Christianity"?
    Do you want me to place Philip J Newell within that?
    Are you asking my actual opinion on what "Celtic Christianity is?

    I am quite well read in that area and as such have some idea of the definitions and the doubts when using that terminology. I would not say I am scholar in this aspect, just well read, but I am influenced by scholars.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    edited June 20
    Brilliant reply!
    Have you considered a career in the Foreign Office, Jengie Jon?
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    I've said this before when threads have come up on this subject. I think there's a great value in accepting the discipline of using the form of prayer that is provided by the ecclesiastical household to which you belong. If you're CofE, that means Morning or Evening Prayer from either the 1662 BCP or Common Worship.

    As an introduction to that discipline, Common Worship also suggests using its Prayer during the Day as a a framework to wrap around a daily Quiet Time and Bible study.

    I theoretically agree, but, while the NZ Prayer Book / He Karakia Mihinare O Aotearoa has its moments (many borrowed from Jim Cotter) the daily offices feel very much as if they were written by a committee. I tend, in private, to segue subtly to the Australian order (I do for funerals, too, though I don't see many of those these days).
  • Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
    Church of Scotland could Seriously do with an online or app y thing.
    .
    I ve resorted to using The Scottish Episcopal Church's very helpful link
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I guess if you wanted to be super Presbyterian you could use only the psalter.

    Yep, but you had better make sure it is metrical. ;)

    I go through periods when I find the MP/EP regime a bit minimalistic, and add the RC Office of Reading, and some form of Midday Prayer/Prayer during the day to the routine. This usually lasts until we get a week of reading from the documents of Vatican II, and then I get very 'proper' Anglican again. I guess it is a relic of my early flirtations with the modern Anglo-Catholic style coming to the fore.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Thank you to all who posted here, and particular thanks to those who mentioned Universalis. I can't say I'm using it every day, but it is helpi
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Thank you to all who posted here, and particular thanks to those who mentioned Universalis. I can't say I'm using it every day, but it is helping me to at least return to some form of Christian expression in my life.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited August 14
    I quite like the Universalis site too, and I am really glad it has got you back into doing something semi-regularly. I sometimes say that of it wasn't for the Daily Office I would not have a spiritual life. When I am one of my kicks of saying the Office of Readings I usually do it from the site rather than mess with the books. My current infatuation seems to be with the Monastic Breviary, but I am "having a phase" - the stress level is pretty high at the moment.
  • ECraigRECraigR Shipmate
    I too pray the daily office. Sometimes I’ll use St Augustine’s Prayer Book if I’m in a hurry, or just want to change things. That’s designed for Anglo-Catholics though, I think.
  • I ideally try to do the full morning and evening prayer but usually I only have time to do the "daily devotions for individuals" section of the 79 BCP. I also have the recent edition of the St Augustine Prayer Book which has some short forms, which I haven't tried yet.
  • ECraigRECraigR Shipmate
    I forgot about the daily devotions section. I think the St Augustine forms are basically the same, with a Hail Mary thrown in and some additional words.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited August 16
    I seem to have gone through a number of variations through the years. Much as I love the BCP Offices they often do not fit with the demands on my time. At one time I worked for the Royal Mail which put me on permanent "earlies" which made Morning Prayer a problem. These days I have plenty of time in a morning, but the late afternoons and evenings are often quite crowded, and chopped up. I have always made pretty heavy use of the old rule that provided it gets said, anytime between midnight and midnight you are OK, but then I am obliged to say the Office privately, if not publicly, being a priest.

    My other problem with the old BCP office was what to do in the middle of the day, so for many years I have usually had a little book of some description with at least Midday Office and Compline in it to help fill out the daily round. I used the SSM (Kelham) version for years; these days it is usually the Monastic Diurnal. The Monastic Diurnal also comes in useful when travelling as it is a smallish book one can slip in a pocket of one's jacket or cargo shorts!

  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Galilit wrote: »
    11 am!!! That is really late in the day for MP!
    (I cannot pray after I have eaten breakfast, but I guess that is a thing divides the world into those who can and those who can't pray on a full stomach)

    I have had that very question ("Did you pray this morning?") put to me on several occasions but to me it is like the old "Are you getting your period?" response - makes me even more furious

    My batshit crazy body clock has shifted again, so I am now usually up by 7:30am, and have my nose in Matins by 8:00am. Unfortunately I am still not asleep until 1:00am, and I don't see me getting to bed any earlier until it cools down in September. We have no A/C and I live in Virginia...
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Compline is your answer!
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    edited August 16
    @Galilit - Right now Compline is my friend, as are the monastic versions of Prime, Terce, Sext, and None, which are shorter than the secular ones, and give me something to 'brew' on until it is time to read EP. The pattern that seems to work with the current fragmented day is MP with three lessons, the Lesser Hours, EP shortened down to one psalm, one lesson and one canticle, then Compline. The frequent short offices help me stay on track in what is currently a very fragmented daily schedule.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    I used the (Lancelot Andrewes Press) Monastic Diurnal over a decade and a half ago. I found it fitted what I needed spiritually at the time perfectly. I lost it in a move.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    I am using the LAP Monastic Diurnal at the moment for the lesser hours but the Lauds and Vespers slots are taken by the BCP Offices - though they might pick up an office hymn and the antiphon on the Benedictus and Mag if I am in the mood. I also have a copy of the LAP Matins according to the Rule of St Benedict on the shelf, and it is getting really tempting to give it a go.
  • ECraigRECraigR Shipmate
    I just looked at the LAP Monastic Diurnal and it looks quite interesting. Thanks for the mentions!
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    One catch to the MD is you have to get the various formats in your head to start with, then after that there are just enough hints to keep you straight. Compline is the easiest, because it is almost invariable; then Prime; then the Day Hours, and finally Lauds and Vespers. The two night/early morning offices are long in the monastic tradition. Lauds this morning was Psalm 67, 51, 143 a & b, the Song of Sirach, and Pss. 148 - 149 -150. On the other hand Vespers is consistently four psalms.

    Where the Monastic Breviary according to RB makes its investment of time and effort is Matins. This mornings would have had Pss, 3, 67, a nocturn of six psalms, lesson and responsory; six more psalms, short lesson, Lord's Prayer and Collect, which is more or less the short Summer Office, but with a longer first lesson for the BVM on Saturday. Sundays and Class I Feasts see the opening responses, "O Lord, open thou our lips &c." (times 3); Pss 3 and 95; two nocturns of six psalms and four lessons; then a third nocturn of three canticles and three lessons. Te Deum, Gospel reading, Short Canticle and Collect.
  • DavidDavid Shipmate
    If you’re feeling really hardcore, you can invest in the Matins volume (1,200 pp) from the same publisher.
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    One catch to the MD is you have to get the various formats in your head to start with, then after that there are just enough hints to keep you straight.

    When I've used the MD, I've sometimes checked myself using this useful website, choosing the "Pre-Trident Monastic" option. It lays everything (except Matins lessons) out for you.
  • ECraigRECraigR Shipmate
    David wrote: »
    If you’re feeling really hardcore, you can invest in the Matins volume (1,200 pp) from the same publisher.

    Usually I’m pretty hardcore. But pardon my ignorance: what’s the difference between the two volumes?

  • DavidDavid Shipmate
    The Diurnal has the day hours, the Matins volume has, well, Matins.
  • DavidDavid Shipmate
    Thanks for the link, Scott. I didn’t even know there was a St Hyacinth the Confessor!
  • ECraigRECraigR Shipmate
    Matins needs it’s own huge volume? Well my my, maybe I will need to be hardcore! I’ve always wanted to be a monk, afterall.
  • DavidDavid Shipmate
    ECraigR wrote: »
    Matins needs it’s own huge volume? Well my my, maybe I will need to be hardcore! I’ve always wanted to be a monk, afterall.

    The huge volume is a considerable abbreviation!

  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Oh I have just heard the most beautiful Compline!!
    Since the St Mark's, Seattle chaps are on a pilgrimmage to England ... the "Women's Schola in Residence" is (are) doing it.
    https://complinepodcast.org
  • If you find a copy of the old Book of Common Prayer as Proposed in 1928 it has an Order for Prime and for Compline in the Appendix.
  • PDRPDR Shipmate
    Oblatus wrote: »
    PDR wrote: »
    One catch to the MD is you have to get the various formats in your head to start with, then after that there are just enough hints to keep you straight.

    When I've used the MD, I've sometimes checked myself using this useful website, choosing the "Pre-Trident Monastic" option. It lays everything (except Matins lessons) out for you.

    Website duly bookmarked with mental note that I need to set it to the 1962 Monastic rubrics for my use.

    Monastic Matins is a bit of a beast. I went through a phase with the Anglican Breviary the last time Anglo-Catholicism and I were on speaking terms about ten years ago, which helped me a lot, but the numbers are different. Instead of 9 psalms & 3 lessons, or 3 & 3 X 3 there are more permutations with Monastic Matins because it adjusts to the length of the night. Right now ferias are both Nocturns are 6 psalms & 1 lesson except on Sundays. Sundays weigh in at a whopping 6 psalms and 4 lesson for the first and second Nocturns, and three Canticles and three lessons for the third, followed by the Te Deum, Gospel, short Canticle and dismissal, which takes about 45 minutes in private recitation if you are reasonable familiar with the book.
  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    PDR wrote: »
    Oblatus wrote: »
    PDR wrote: »
    One catch to the MD is you have to get the various formats in your head to start with, then after that there are just enough hints to keep you straight.

    When I've used the MD, I've sometimes checked myself using this useful website, choosing the "Pre-Trident Monastic" option. It lays everything (except Matins lessons) out for you.

    I should add that the linked site uses the Septuagint psalm numbering, where most of the psalms have a number that is one lower than if they were using Hebrew numbering (so "The Lord is my shepherd" would be Ps. 22, not 23, in Septuagint numbering). The all-English Lancelot Andrewes Press Monastic Diurnal uses Hebrew numbering. Google "psalm numbering" for tables showing the differences.

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