Please see Styx thread on the Registered Shipmates consultation for the main discussion forums - your views are important, continues until April 4th.
Kerygmania: Does God change His mind ?
The psalmist says, 'Our God is in heaven and does as He pleases' (Ps 115: 3).
However, Samuel tells Saul that God does not change His mind - but at the same time he informs him that God has changed His mind about who should be king of Israel.
'the Glory of Israel will not recant or change His mind; for He is not a mortal, that He should change His mind' (1 Sam 16: 29).
Who is more correct about God: the psalmist or Samuel?
However, Samuel tells Saul that God does not change His mind - but at the same time he informs him that God has changed His mind about who should be king of Israel.
'the Glory of Israel will not recant or change His mind; for He is not a mortal, that He should change His mind' (1 Sam 16: 29).
Who is more correct about God: the psalmist or Samuel?
Comments
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
It sure looks here like God had planned to do one thing, then changed his mind and did something else, based on what the people of Ninevah did.
Most Christians of course have a problem with this-- we have been so influenced by the notion of God's immutability that the notion of God changing his mind, even in response to human action, is unthinkable for us. And yet, almost all Christians pray as if God is changeable-- as if the future is open-- even if we tag on a hasty "if it be your will..." at the end.
Joel 2:13
"Rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil."
It's another case of us thinking we can tell God what He can and can't do.
Of course, if someone just wants to rely on the language in Scripture and not the greater body of Christian writings, teachings, and philosophy framed to explain Scripture, then the concept of God's immutability may not be important, or may (someone may decide) be false.
There are problems theologically with positing God as outside of time (and this is a point debated by religious physicists-- but that discussion is way above my pay grade).
I would agree that the concept of immutability is not found in Scripture, but it quite prevalent in extrabiblical lit. The question, as always, is how much weight to give that extrabiblical lit-- i.e. how do we weigh tradition v Scripture?
I think immutability-- with the implication of impassivity-- is completely incompatible not only with Scripture but with the larger arc of historic Christian witness (tradition) as well as our experience of God. But I do think there is a way to harmonize God's sovereignty with God's "changeableness". Trying to avoid getting into the familiar, tangled weeds of Open Theism, I would just say that a sovereign deity can still choose to create a universe where the future is at least partially open and determined by the truly free choices of truly free creatures. God still moves and acts in that open universe to accomplish His purposes and insure God's promised future (prophesy). Which is why you see "repentance" or "changing his mind" language in reference to God-- those instances always come in conjunction with the consistency of God's character and purpose-- they are part of the ways the Sovereign God is adjusting and adapting to human choices-- all in alignment with the unchanging nature of God's character-- loving, gracious, self-giving.
It seems to me that doctrines of both God's immutability and his impassivity are yet more examples of human thinking that 'our ideas about God means he has to be like this'. At the core of that is the assumption that if God doesn't fit in with the perceptions of him that our somewhat finite and inadequate brains have worked out, then it must be God who is wrong rather than us.
Numbers 23:19:
God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
To the question, though, does God change God's mind? Yes.
Pardon?
It seems the things God will repent of (eg. curses and damnations) are different from the things God will never repent of (eg. blessings, promises.)
I'm thinking quite a lot of prayers in the OT can be said to be appeals for God to change his mind - or at least to start acting to change things that at present are not changing.
Whereas prayer in the gospels seems to be more about acceptance of the reality of life.
Even the ideas of love for enemies and forgiving wrong appears to start from a position of acceptance of the reality of the situation and ask instead for a personal changed perspective rather that trying to change the deity's mind about (I don't know) turning them to dust, making them pay or even making them quiver in fear and stop being so horrid.
If you think it's "obvious" that we made up any idea of God blessing or cursing, what grounds do you have for believing anything the Bible allegedly tells us about God is anything more than anthropocentric projection?
I've no idea, given that I've given up reading your posts if I don't understand the first sentence.
So God offers us life and blessings and even urges us to choose them. But the freewill choice still remains our own.
I'm not sure if I think it is obvious but I guess I'm pretty sure God is not like that, and if he is then he isn't worth spending a lot of time worrying about.
I'm increasingly thinking that if Jesus is the vision of humanity we are supposed to emulate and desire to be like, that is because he is the perfect image of the deity.
So for me it makes no sense for the deity to do things he tells us not to do, and acts in ways we should not act.
And I can see that OT passages which portray him as a kind of Hobbesian Leviathan* (or even an Olympian god) scaring people into better behaviours - because there is someone who notices, even if you think your dirty secrets are hidden - have a certain value, I increasingly can't believe in a God like that, and am therefore forced to conclude that those scriptures are not accurate.
Fwiw, I think the projection of a deity who destroys enemies is much more in keeping with base human nature than a deity who is loving.
* Which I appreciate is ironic, in this context
But change? We are not in a place to exclude that possibility. And how could we tell?
Could you @ whoever you are expecting to answer? I thought you were asking me.
There is, however, a lot of God's steadfastness and unchangingness in the Old Testament as well as the New, particularly in the Psalms. "For his steadfast love endureth forever."
Other proof texts:
I want the incarnation to be so. In the face of rationality.
It's meaningless.
So in summary, your position is cognitive bias is OK if it favours the Incarnation, but not if it postulates God blessing and/or cursing? This seems far from "obvious" to me.
What makes you think I haven't? (Oooh & E, I have OK?)
No, I don't begrudge you it at all. What I'm gently trying to point out, though, is that while you think you've thought all this through (and certainly give that impression), in fact you haven't really (cf my previous paragraph).
Your world seems to be split into absolute rationality on the one hand and "cognitive bias" and "made-up stuff" on the other. I think this is a mistake. I think you're missing the Spirit and refusing to acknowledge his existence and presence despite your avowed experience to the contrary. It's my best assessment that what lies between you and atheism is not your cognitive bias but the indwelling Spirit - who may not be as the worst perversions you suffered in the past would have you believe.
On a point of order following on from @mr cheesy's earlier comment, it helps if after you've hit "post comment" you hit F5 or reopen the thread on your phone/tablet to see what cross-posts there might have been. This would make it a lot easier to untangle some bits of your answers. Working out what you were answering there took me quite a while...
An army chaplain serving in the Vietnam War noticed that whenever he had to address the traumatised and cynical young soldiers they would not listen - except when he spoke from Ecclesiastes. They thought that he knew what he was talking about when he said that life was meaningless.
There are times when we all feel disillusioned with life and wonder what it is all about. The psalms are quite candid with God about how let down the speaker feels. But they still include God in the conversation.
Without going into ancient languages, I'm not sure I'm on strong ground but I wonder if there might be a difference in some of the thoughts/words here.
Again, I might be entirely wrong here - but I can think of occasions where I can have a long-term plan but be prepared to haggle over details.
So I might be telling my family about my plans for a worldwide holiday. My daughter might say "don't do that, it is really daft at your age, haven't you got better things to be doing you stupid old fart.."
And I might reply "No, sorry darling. I've made my mind up and there is nothing you could possible boy say to change my mind.."
And then (after some hours) she will eventually give up trying to persuade me and might say something like
"Ok, you fool. At least change your itinerary so that you don't travel to Libya.."
And I might say "oh ok I suppose so"
--
One can, in normal language, be steadfast in plans whilst still be able to be talked into changing minds.
I want to catch the next train to Gare du Nord. But they ain't runnin' are they?
You give me the hope of hope. Don't worry. I take full responsibility.