Did Judas have a choice ?

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  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 28
    Nenya wrote: »

    So I want to play Good Guy and you agree to be my Bad Guy to give me that experience. Where would we be together to have that discussion and make that agreement before we come into this life and do that?

    In between incarnations.

    Some narratives can play out in episodes ... like stay tuned for the next exciting chapter coming next life.

    I love the Hindu expression "Everything will be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's not the end."



    AFF



    I just realized I didn't answer the question.

    The way I see it, our human form is an expression or fractal iteration of a larger being within which we have our being, and that is a fractal iteration of another one and the magnifications continue outwards.

    We simply withdraw to the level of being that contains this one, where barriers to communication are lowered. To my way of looking at it, we are still communicating at that level of being, in stage whispers.

    In mathematical terms, there is an infinity between 0 and 1, the alpha and omega as it were. We have our being between the 0 and 1, which is the ultimate expression - which is the Totality of Being, and the ultimate Unity of Being.

    AFF
  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    Nenya wrote: »

    So I want to play Good Guy and you agree to be my Bad Guy to give me that experience. Where would we be together to have that discussion and make that agreement before we come into this life and do that?

    In between incarnations.

    Some narratives can play out in episodes ... like stay tuned for the next exciting chapter coming next life.

    I love the Hindu expression "Everything will be all right in the end, and if it's not all right, it's not the end."
    AFF

    But if, in between incarnations, we love each other as you say, why would I choose an experience in which you get hurt or abused?

    I have also seen your later post - thank you - and am sitting with it as I don't yet know what to think or say.
  • An interesting hypothesis is while Judas was predestined by God to betray Jesus, he still had the possibility of returning to Christ. Instead he hung himself.

    BTW, here is an apparent contradiction in the Bible. Matthew 27.5 says he went back to the high priest and threw the 30 shekels on the ground then hung himself. But Acts 1:18 says Jonah took the 30 shekels and bought a field, and then he hung himself. Acts goes on to say the field became a paupers cemetery.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    MPaul wrote: »

    As stated above, this is determinism. There is no room for individual independence. The Bible does not teach this. How can he be just if he both controls us and holds us responsible?

    I agree.

    False dichotomy.

    God is not an either/or. He is a both/and.

    If paradox exists it's because He is it. He will not be put in a box circumscribed by our left hemisphere.

    AFF
    Well I am glad you think God can be a contradictory being.
    If you ignore the Bible, he can actually be anything you want I guess.

  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited February 28
    MPaul wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »

    As stated above, this is determinism. There is no room for individual independence. The Bible does not teach this. How can he be just if he both controls us and holds us responsible?

    I agree.

    False dichotomy.

    God is not an either/or. He is a both/and.

    If paradox exists it's because He is it. He will not be put in a box circumscribed by our left hemisphere.

    AFF
    Well I am glad you think God can be a contradictory being.
    If you ignore the Bible, he can actually be anything you want I guess.

    I don't ignore it.

    I just think it isn't the first last and only word. Only God has that.

    God can be anything He wants. It's you who thinks He is only what is described in the Bible.

    AFF
  • Nenya wrote: »

    But if, in between incarnations, we love each other as you say, why would I choose an experience in which you get hurt or abused?

    I have also seen your later post - thank you - and am sitting with it as I don't yet know what to think or say.

    What if the Adam and Eve story isn't the story of some mythical forebears?

    What if it's the story of our archetypal selves, one level out, who decided to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and to "fall" into this creation?

    How would we go about gaining an understanding of good and evil if we didn't have a place to experience it? Both sides? Like what it feels like to be the Good Guy and what it feels like to be the Bad Guy?

    AFF

  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    An interesting hypothesis is while Judas was predestined by God to betray Jesus, he still had the possibility of returning to Christ. Instead he hung himself.

    I don't believe Judas hanging himself scuppered his chances of returning to Christ but then I'm a universalist.

    AFF - thank you again. I'm considering all this.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    I just think it isn't the first last and only word
    Yep..pity really.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    An interesting hypothesis is while Judas was predestined by God to betray Jesus, he still had the possibility of returning to Christ. Instead he hung himself.

    BTW, here is an apparent contradiction in the Bible. Matthew 27.5 says he went back to the high priest and threw the 30 shekels on the ground then hung himself. But Acts 1:18 says Jonah took the 30 shekels and bought a field, and then he hung himself. Acts goes on to say the field became a paupers cemetery.

    Aye, despite the somewhat loaded dice, he's only got himself to blame in the penultimate circle.
  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    What if the Adam and Eve story isn't the story of some mythical forebears?

    What if it's the story of our archetypal selves, one level out, who decided to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and to "fall" into this creation?

    Yes. I've believed for a long time that those narratives are a depiction of what living the human condition means every day, rather than the story of how sin came into the world.
    How would we go about gaining an understanding of good and evil if we didn't have a place to experience it? Both sides? Like what it feels like to be the Good Guy and what it feels like to be the Bad Guy?
    Yikes! I don't know. I'll have to keep thinking about that one.

    I don't believe the Bible is the first, last and only word either. God is much greater, bigger, more complex than anything we can describe in words. And inclusive, rather than contradictory... where paradox and mystery are held...
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Nenya wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    An interesting hypothesis is while Judas was predestined by God to betray Jesus, he still had the possibility of returning to Christ. Instead he hung himself.

    I don't believe Judas hanging himself scuppered his chances of returning to Christ but then I'm a universalist.

    AFF - thank you again. I'm considering all this.

    Just because what I said was an interesting hypothesis does not mean that I accept it. I am more of a universalist myself.
  • MPaul wrote: »
    I just think it isn't the first last and only word
    Yep..pity really.

    Well thank you for that. But those are your feelings, not my own.

    My life is a sacred text. And IMO so is yours. And so is everyone's.

    But IMO you can only do, say, write, feel and think what's in your Script, so it's all good. And I hope you feel that it is. I hope you have the same faith in the goodness of your life as I do in mine.

    Hugs
    AFF




  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Nenya wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    An interesting hypothesis is while Judas was predestined by God to betray Jesus, he still had the possibility of returning to Christ. Instead he hung himself.

    I don't believe Judas hanging himself scuppered his chances of returning to Christ but then I'm a universalist.

    AFF - thank you again. I'm considering all this.

    Just because what I said was an interesting hypothesis does not mean that I accept it. I am more of a universalist myself.

    My apologies. I read it that you meant you thought that the interesting hypothesis was that Judas could have returned to Christ in spite of the fact that he betrayed him, but that you also thought he lost that possibility by hanging himself.
  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    BTW, here is an apparent contradiction in the Bible. Matthew 27.5 says he went back to the high priest and threw the 30 shekels on the ground then hung himself. But Acts 1:18 says Jonah took the 30 shekels and bought a field, and then he hung himself.
    Worse, Acts does not say he hanged himself, but that he fell headlong and burst his guts. As Acts 1 presents it, Judas' death wasn't necessarily a suicide but an accident--you know, what the insurance companies call an "act of God." :grin:
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Did Judas return to Christ in the end? Yes, he could have repented like Peter and experienced the forgiveness of the Risen Christ. But some views of the Harrowing of Hell think that Christ met Judas there instead and released him with all the other captives who were awaiting redemption.
  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    However it happened I'm convinced that Judas and Christ are together now.
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