Brexit thread III

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  • On holiday in a gite in SW France some years ago with family (my sister lives in France, and my b-i-l is Slovenian), we were neighbours to some French people (no surprise there), and a Dutch couple.

    One evening, we were joined by a Belgian family, who were in the final stages of a pretty-well-all-round-the-world journey in a converted Army vehicle (we thought it was the local dustcart arriving!).

    They said they were quite pleased - although still a long way from home - to be back in 'European Culture'. Thinking about it, we all saw what they meant.
  • You can be emotionally and psychologically closer and closer to your wife, you can’t become a merged person.

    And the two shall become one flesh?

    Seriously, I'd argue that by getting married, we became functionally a merged person. Sure - we're still two bodies, and have our own interests, but we have common finances, common scheduling, common decision making, and are in several circumstances interchangeable (if somebody needs one of us to represent the family or to make a decision, it doesn't really matter which one they get.)

    And in this context, you can probably sum up most of Brexit with the idea that the average Brit doesn't really want to marry France.
  • BlahblahBlahblah Shipmate
    Oh goodie, another election.
  • And in this context, you can probably sum up most of Brexit with the idea that the average Brit doesn't really want to marry France.
    You are not going to find a reasoned position, accurate or not, that explains most people's view of Brexit because they do not have one.

  • Blahblah wrote: »
    Oh goodie, another election.
    Yay. And, the result will be known on Friday 13th. Auspicious timing.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Blahblah wrote: »
    Still, one thing we can say for certain after today is that Bercow is still an enormous windbag.

    As John Crace accurately observed in his Commons sketch today

    "The Speaker took a huge amount of pleasure in telling the government it was taking the piss and devoted the best part of 40 minutes to his own self-congratulation. Even when he’s doing the right thing by sticking up for parliament, his amour propre doesn’t leave much room for anyone else’s amour. Bercow is going to really miss himself when he’s gone."

    He really is something else.

    Lord Bercow I trust. Superb. The very best of British.
  • Blahblah wrote: »
    Oh goodie, another election.
    Yay. And, the result will be known on Friday 13th. Auspicious timing.

    FWIW: I've heard that somewhere (maybe one of India's cultures?) 13 has the meaning of "giving to all".

    Just figured you folks have enough stress, without worries about the number.

    YMMV.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    Bercow is a windbag and I'm concerned about the bullying allegations. But I think he has done a pretty good job in defending Parliament against the attacks of an overweening executive. I also think he understands the Speaker's role very well and carries it out confident!y and with authority.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Barnabas62 wrote: »
    Bercow is a windbag and I'm concerned about the bullying allegations. But I think he has done a pretty good job in defending Parliament against the attacks of an overweening executive. I also think he understands the Speaker's role very well and carries it out confident!y and with authority.

    Yes. He has spoken much as his predecessors did when the monarch was the executive.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    So the PM has been wrong footed again. They gave him his election, which is of course JC’s plan all along. I wonder how long JB will last before the party retire him from PM. He has proven not to be the strong PM he promised
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited October 30
    I will also note, the Labour Party always said they would support the election, once it wouldn’t leave open the possibility of crashing out - and they dropped opposition to the election at the point formal confirmation of the extension was given by the EU.

    Corbyn has been consistent about this.
  • Also, FYI, the bbc is carrying this explanations of abstentions on the vote:
    Joe Owen, from the Institute for Government, says there were "crossed wires" among some Labour MPs last night.

    104 Labour MPs abstained in the vote for a general election.

    "Some of the MPs were saying they got a text saying 'don't vote on the next vote, we're going to abstain'.

    "And the next vote was supposed to be something else but that vote never happened because it wasn't called.

    "So they thought the next vote meant abstain on the general election final motion.

    "It was just crossed wires basically in the kind of furious whipping arrangements in the House of Commons with MPs texting each other, it all got a bit mixed up."
  • BlahblahBlahblah Shipmate
    I will also note, the Labour Party always said they would support the election, once it wouldn’t leave open the possibility of crashing out - and they dropped opposition to the election at the point formal confirmation of the extension was given by the EU.

    Corbyn has been consistent about this.

    I don't think No Deal is off the table. Maybe not now on 31 October, but at the end of 2020 it seems highly likely if the transition deal passes the House of Commons in December/January.
  • Until A50 is revoked, no-deal will always be on the table. What changed was that with the extension granted there's no chance of a no-deal Brexit happening during the campaign for an election. It's not as good as taking away the possibility entirely, but it's enough to allow people to enter an election campaign without fear that we'll crash out during that process.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Until A50 is revoked, no-deal will always be on the table. What changed was that with the extension granted there's no chance of a no-deal Brexit happening during the campaign for an election. It's not as good as taking away the possibility entirely, but it's enough to allow people to enter an election campaign without fear that we'll crash out during that process.

    Yep. We can now have an election with out a sword hanging over our heads. As far as I can see Labour will run a more traditional Labour campaign. Taking back the railways etc into public hands. Funding the NHS properly all that kind happens f thing. That will mean spending a lot of money but the Conservatives wanted to spend a lot of money as well. Brits unlike the Germans are allergic to taxes, even when they can see where it goes. Labour are known as the tax party
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    And the Tories should be known as the tax evasion party. They certainly don't deserve to be called the 'pro-business' party, after the shambles of the last three years.
    And in this context, you can probably sum up most of Brexit with the idea that the average Brit doesn't really want to marry France.

    Oh, I think that's going a bit too far. I am sure la vie en rouge will be along in a moment to point out that many Brits *have* actually married France (or at least, a representative thereof). I am equally sure that a significant number of others would not be averse to, let us say, a passionate affair. Brexiters such as Lord Lawson, for example, with his French chateau and his resident's permit.

    But you're right that a lot of the objection to the EU stems from identity. The Welsh and Scots are used to having a dual identity (Scottish and British, Welsh and British, Irish, it depends who you ask). The English, not so much. The other part of the objection seems to be that many people think 'democracy' means 'everyone doing what the English tell them to do'. Which is basically how the "United" Kingdom works, because England's population is so much bigger than those of the other three nations.

    I am perfectly happy to be in the European Union, because I am comfortable thinking of myself as English and British and European. Many people aren't.

  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I thought we drank cordial with the French.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    I was thinking of starting a UK election rant thread in Hell as things could get... interesting. I am unsure though.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    I am getting completely brassed off with these people buggering about over my children's (and grandchildren's) future. Don't they realise that this could well end up with people getting killed - and not only in Ireland?

    A bit late on this but it shouldn't be forgotten that thanks to Cameron's, May's and now Johnson's governments thousands of people have died at the very least unnecessarily or earlier than they should have thanks to underfunding the NHS, Universal Credit and PIPs.

    We're in the "Never Forget" season. This shouldn't be forgotten either.

  • sionisais wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I am getting completely brassed off with these people buggering about over my children's (and grandchildren's) future. Don't they realise that this could well end up with people getting killed - and not only in Ireland?

    A bit late on this but it shouldn't be forgotten that thanks to Cameron's, May's and now Johnson's governments thousands of people have died at the very least unnecessarily or earlier than they should have thanks to underfunding the NHS, Universal Credit and PIPs.

    Yes, and this is fairly well attested to.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    I am getting completely brassed off with these people buggering about over my children's (and grandchildren's) future. Don't they realise that this could well end up with people getting killed - and not only in Ireland?

    A bit late on this but it shouldn't be forgotten that thanks to Cameron's, May's and now Johnson's governments thousands of people have died at the very least unnecessarily or earlier than they should have thanks to underfunding the NHS, Universal Credit and PIPs.

    Yes, and this is fairly well attested to.

    That's 120,000 people with shorter lives in 7 years. What would have stopped that? With what opportunity cost? Including in shorter lives in other contexts?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    So, all ready for 00:00 hours tonight then? And what will the mortality rate do then?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Some at my work are still saying we need no deal to be in the table. I really don’t get this. The EU has been ready for us to leave for a while. They have everything in place. Also there are 27 nations they just need to re-jig supply lines and they are good. No deal gives us no advantage what so ever
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I reckon Johnson knows that, but he’s painted himself into a Brexiter corner and has no way out.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    I reckon Johnson knows that, but he’s painted himself into a Brexiter corner and has no way out.

    Everybody seems to get painted into a corner on Brexit. Boris has the advantage that he will just lie about it. Leaving on 31 October? Don't be silly.
  • The question I will ask (should I still be awake at 00.01 tomorrow morning) is this:

    ARE WE NOW GREAT AGAIN?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Lie? We debase the word.
  • How so? Lying is lying is lying...what word should we use?
  • We do not debase the word, we exemplify it.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    How so? Lying is lying is lying...what word should we use?

    One that accurately describes his pronouncements in this august forum.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The honourable gentleman (?) has been somewhat liberal with the truth.
    Is that better Martin
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    The honourable gentleman (?) has been somewhat liberal with the truth.
    Is that better Martin

    Not for me. Mendacious Toad would be better.
  • I think the phrase should be 'economic with the truth' - in other words, there's not much of that commodity being handed out.
  • To repeat Keith Waterhouse "There are three kinds of lie: lies, damned lies and Sun exclusives".

    I think we can replace the Sun with the Daily Mail, although the Mail has never had more than a tenuous acquaintance with the truth.
  • Interesting analysis in relation to Farage's arrival, that most Labour voters in Leave areas, voted Remain, although there is a widespread idea that most voted Leave. For some reason, this is known as the ecological fallacy, I would have thought it's a geographical fallacy. But encouraging Tory leave voters to switch to Farage, would help Labour.
  • Farage: "Johnson's deal is not Brexit".
  • Jane RJane R Shipmate
    Ah, the No True Brexit fallacy!
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    Since we're post 31 October, I think we'd better close this thread. We're in the fourth phase now, so I'm going to create, for those who still want to rap on this issue, a thread entitled Brexit IV; do or die in a ditch? Shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.

    Barnabas62
    Purgatory Host
This discussion has been closed.