Brexit thread III

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  • MoyessaMoyessa Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    It is a matter of political courage. Nothing more, nothing less.
    I think the only thing rarer than that right now in the UK is a Brexit unicorn.

    Agreed. It is a sad, but fascinating spectacle.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    A friend said to me, inter alia, that if we get closer and closer to a cliff-edge, and no deal, the markets will be spooked and will go haywire, and UK plc will suffer badly. Not being a cognoscente of markets, I have no idea, but it sounds plausible. Does anyone have a clearer idea?
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    The markets like certainty. To them anything less is bad. The uncertainty over Brexit is already causing them problems. If we leave without a deal that would mean chaos and business would really suffer. They have been telling the government and the runners for the new PM this but some will not listen.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    Hugal wrote: »
    The markets like certainty. To them anything less is bad. The uncertainty over Brexit is already causing them problems. If we leave without a deal that would mean chaos and business would really suffer. They have been telling the government and the runners for the new PM this but some will not listen.

    Simple investment and trading markets like certainty, but many futures, hedge fund and (re)insurance traders depend on uncertainty for their daily bread. I'd check the portfolios of the various Tory leadership candidates and prominent Brexiteers.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Elderly, yes. Rich by some standards, yes. But whatever makes you think I'm self-satisfied?
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Sorry, that last post should have gone in the 'European Tribes' thread. Kindly host, please move or delete it.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The markets like certainty. To them anything less is bad. The uncertainty over Brexit is already causing them problems. If we leave without a deal that would mean chaos and business would really suffer. They have been telling the government and the runners for the new PM this but some will not listen.

    Simple investment and trading markets like certainty, but many futures, hedge fund and (re)insurance traders depend on uncertainty for their daily bread. I'd check the portfolios of the various Tory leadership candidates and prominent Brexiteers.

    Interesting
    When I get up in the morning the business news is on. They are always saying markets like stability. It is almost a mantra
  • GwaiGwai Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    Eirenist, we generally don't delete posts. Discussion will go around it. It's okay. (And happens to most of us.)
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    Hugal wrote: »
    The markets like certainty. To them anything less is bad. The uncertainty over Brexit is already causing them problems. If we leave without a deal that would mean chaos and business would really suffer.

    Simple investment and trading markets like certainty, but many futures, hedge fund and (re)insurance traders depend on uncertainty for their daily bread.

    No, those folks also hate uncertainty. What they like is risk. Here's an illustration of the difference between those two things from the fun-filled world of actuarial markets.
    Next summer, I will be taking my kids to the North Carolina beach several times. If I give an actuary the name of the beach, the weekend that I will be there and whether or not my kids have any open bleeding scabs, that actuary can create a model. That model will rely on known data of shark migration patterns given the time of year, it will rely on a species distribution, it will rely on a deep data set of the past. The actuary will run that model a couple of thousand times through a Monte Carlo program and spit out a probability distribution that my kids will get bitten by a shark. If I pay the actuary a bit more, I’ll get an expected cost of insuring my kids against shark bites.

    This is risk management. There is known data with identifiable distributions. The estimate will always have a bit of fuzz to it but the estimate will be close.

    Now let’s replace this scenario. If I give an actuary a map of an unknown location where the only useful information on it is “There be monsters” the actuary will have a nervious breakdown if I ask them to give me a model of monster attacks. That is a model of extreme uncertainty as the data provides no guidance.

    So let’s keep this in mind when we think of risk (sharks) and uncertainty (monsters).

    From my (admittedly non-expert) perspective Brexit seems a lot more like a sea monster than a shark.
  • I like that illustration - but I understood something different from the stability / uncertainty idea. If I were investing x million in a plant to make y in order to sell them to z, I'd want to be able to model (like your actuary) the ins and outs in order to give me an idea how long it takes to make my money back - so stability rules. But if I 'make' money based on bets in a casino where every dice will roll a two for the next 5 years, no-one will give me any odds and I make no money. Whereas betting on nice spikey graphs could well make me a mint, if I'm good at betting on the ups _and_ the downs. I guess this is what hedge fund people do, while there's still a real economy to bet on, so the chaos is pretty exciting for them.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited June 7
    I like that illustration - but I understood something different from the stability / uncertainty idea. If I were investing x million in a plant to make y in order to sell them to z, I'd want to be able to model (like your actuary) the ins and outs in order to give me an idea how long it takes to make my money back - so stability rules. But if I 'make' money based on bets in a casino where every dice will roll a two for the next 5 years, no-one will give me any odds and I make no money. Whereas betting on nice spikey graphs could well make me a mint, if I'm good at betting on the ups _and_ the downs. I guess this is what hedge fund people do, while there's still a real economy to bet on, so the chaos is pretty exciting for them.

    No, that's still risk rather than uncertainty. To borrow a (slightly) more technical explanation from Barry Ritholtz:
    Risk: We don’t know what is going to happen next, but we do know what the distribution looks like.

    Uncertainty: We don’t know what is going to happen next, and we do not know what the possible distribution looks like.

    In other words, if you've got a probability distribution (even an estimated one) of what's going to happen with those "nice spikey graphs" you're dealing with risk. If you don't have any graphs to work from or any idea what those three and four letter ticker abbreviations stand for then you're dealing with uncertainty. Part of this misunderstanding comes from treating "uncertain" as a synonym for "unknown", but the future is always unknown until it happens so this is a useless tautology.

    To use your example of rolling a (presumably six-sided and unbiased) die, the result is unknown until you make the roll, but you do know the possible range of results (an integer number ranging from no less than 1 to no more than 6) and the probability distribution of results (equal if the die is unbiased). That makes it an example of risk, whereas uncertainty would be if you had no idea what the range of possible results would be, or even if a result would be an integer number (or even a real number).
  • Thanks, I see more clearly what you mean.

    Well, whether we have risk or uncertainty, it seems (and I quote the current Private Eye No 1497 p7 'Treasure Island', in case we're afeared of libel lawyers) that
    ...one of the winners from the Brexit-era financial turmoil in which she [Andrea Leadsom] played no small part is...her husband, Benjamin... Since stock markets had [a bad] year in 2018...Leadsom's firm's remarkable returns must have involved some very successful financial bets... A drawn-out Brexit process is the perfect environment for such a firm.

    In case all this is getting you down, The Eye also notes Farage (speaking in The Mail in 2016) just below the article I quote above, as saying
    If we vote to Remain on June 23 it is the end of the steel industry in this country. Simple as that.

    Copies available on a newsagent's shelf near you, UK readers.
  • In fairness [I know, I know] Farage didn't say it wouldn't be the end of the steel industry if we voted leave.

    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal of an imprisoned Labour MP in a seat that voted 60% leave. There's a photo around of the Brexit Party candidate giving a thumbs down during the new MP's victory speech. Do they have anyone who isn't a compulsive wanker standing for election? As to their excuses about Labour relying on the Pakistani vote and houses with 14 people in them, I'd consign them to hell but I think the denizens would spit them out for a complete lack of class.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    It also shows Corbyn isn’t the doorstep liability people claim, he’s been up in Peterborough campaigning along with other members of the shadow cabinet.
  • RocinanteRocinante Shipmate
    It also shows Corbyn isn’t the doorstep liability people claim, he’s been up in Peterborough campaigning along with other members of the shadow cabinet.

    I don't think anyone doubts his old-school campaigning ability after 2017, though he was up against the least inspiring Tory campaigner since Alec Douglas-Home. About many other aspects of his leadership, there are plenty of doubts.
  • RocinanteRocinante Shipmate
    Farage blithering about how BXP lost because "By-elections are all about data, and we had zero data". He seems to have completely lost it, in a number of ways.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Shipmate
    Silly thought, after an election the leader with confidence of the house goes to the queen. Who then appoints them to govern.
    Does the same apply after a leaving pm (it normally being implicit that it is the will of parlinet and the people, both of which are normally confirmed)
    If, however, the new pm is explicitly planning to avoid the house and public then surely the queen is entitled and dutyvbound to appoint someone who will put it to the people or representatives
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    In fairness [I know, I know] Farage didn't say it wouldn't be the end of the steel industry if we voted leave.

    Though Patrick Minford - the Brexiters chosen and rather lone economist - said that of the car industry.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Rocinante wrote: »
    Farage blithering about how BXP lost because "By-elections are all about data, and we had zero data". He seems to have completely lost it, in a number of ways.

    On the other hand, after the defeat of his party this morning, he got slots on the Today Programme and BBC Breakfast.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    They probably booked him on the assumption he'd win.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    The BBC give him far too much air time.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    They probably booked him on the assumption he'd win.

    Today interviews are normally of the phone in sort, they do and have invited people on a relatively ad-hoc basis, there's no reason they couldn't have changed their running order or kept it open till the results came out.
  • The fact that the media thrive on controversial figures doesn't help.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited June 7
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Fixed link. BroJames. Purgatory Host
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    edited June 7
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    What has been said, or endorsed, by Lisa Forbes or Jeremy Corbyn or any other Labour MPs* or members is as nothing compared to the deaths brought about by the Austerity policies of this government and its predecessors. Careless posting and comments costs votes. Deliberately cruel, mean and selfish policies, rooted in greed, cost lives. Get things right. Concentrate of the true evil.

    In other news, thanks to Croesus for clarifying any number of things in a way that neither politicians nor commentators have managed. I can at least claim some credit in motivating him!

    In more news, Brexit were looking pretty damn smug at the weekend, but Labour pulled the stops out. Also, the Tories got, in the circumstances, a surprisingly good share of the vote and I suspect a fair number of would-be LibDems voted Labour to keep the Scum out.

    *Except George Galloway.

    Fixed link in quoted post. BroJames. Purgatory Host
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate
    edited June 7
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Carelessness with liking a video without reading the accompanying text =/= anti-Semitism. The boundary for anti-Semitism seems to be getting wider and wider.

    Fixed link in quoted post. BroJames. Purgatory Host
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Carelessness with liking a video without reading the accompanying text =/= anti-Semitism. The boundary for anti-Semitism seems to be getting wider and wider.

    Netanyahu's government will have very few friends unless it can redefine anti-Semitism.
  • Especially when the reported comments in response to this from Lisa Forbes are:
    Forbes said she would undertake antisemitism training regardless of whether she was elected. “Antisemitism is abhorrent and has no place in our society,” she said. “Standing up against hatred towards one group of people must never be allowed to become hatred of another.

    “Regardless of whether I am elected, I will deepen my understanding of antisemitism, so I can act as an ally, challenging antisemitism wherever it occurs.”

    From the same article linked above, with a working link
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Carelessness with liking a video without reading the accompanying text =/= anti-Semitism. The boundary for anti-Semitism seems to be getting wider and wider.

    Netanyahu's government will have very few friends unless it can redefine anti-Semitism.

    Careful, you'll be accused of it yourself with comments like that. That's how it's getting.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    I can hear the Blairites and Tiggers and Guardian editorial writers grinding their teeth that Corbyn pulled off another win. Damn the man, why won't he lie down and die, so we can have a right-wing Labour leader, as nature intended.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    I can hear the Blairites and Tiggers and Guardian editorial writers grinding their teeth that Corbyn pulled off another win. Damn the man, why won't he lie down and die, so we can have a right-wing Labour leader, as nature intended.

    No thanks. Blair was Thatcher 2. :angry:

  • RocinanteRocinante Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    In more news, Brexit were looking pretty damn smug at the weekend, but Labour pulled the stops out. Also, the Tories got, in the circumstances, a surprisingly good share of the vote and I suspect a fair number of would-be LibDems voted Labour to keep the Scum out.

    Labour's vague (lack of) Brexit policy does allow them to remain competitive in leave-voting marginals. However, that doesn't mean it's the right policy nationally.

    The unexpectedly high Tory vote might indicate that the appetite for "Brexit at any cost" is less among Tory voters (as opposed to Tory members) than the candidates for leadership may be assuming. Rory Stewart should by rights get a boost from this, but the Tory membership and most of the parliamentary party are beyond all reason.
  • alienfromzogalienfromzog Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    sionisais wrote: »
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Carelessness with liking a video without reading the accompanying text =/= anti-Semitism. The boundary for anti-Semitism seems to be getting wider and wider.

    Netanyahu's government will have very few friends unless it can redefine anti-Semitism.

    Careful, you'll be accused of it yourself with comments like that. That's how it's getting.

    Herein lies the major problem. Criticism of Israel =/= antisemitism but this cuts both ways.

    Defenders of the illegal and morally repugnant actions of the Israeli state scream antisemitism in order to defend the indefensible. Conversely many antisemites use the aforementioned issues of the Israeli state as a convinient cover for their hateful behaviour.

    Then, in terms of antisemitism and Labour there's a second level. Many dishonest actors weaponize and exaggerate antisemitic issues in order to attack Labour and particularly Corbyn. Some Corbyn supporters are so stuck in their siege mentality that they believe that because the MSM and the establishment so hate Corbyn that they use AS to attack him that means that none of it is real.

    Thus these extreme Corbynytes accuse Jewish victims of AS of dishonesty and the genuine victims think no one believes them. It's a perfect storm that many right wingers cheerfully stir up whilst pretending that AS doesn't exist outside the Labour party. (It does. At higher rates). Oh and don't mention Islamophobia and the Tory party...

    AFZ
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Alien, very good post. It's like crying wolf, many of my friends now switch off when anti-semitism in Labour is mentioned, as so much of it seems synthetic, or in fact, fraudulent. So no doubt, genuine complaints get overlooked.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    The last few days were strange, Brexit Party were 1/5 at the bookies to win Peterborough at one point, then rumours started of a switch to Labour, some said because of Trumps comments on NHS. I've no idea if any of this is accurate, it's more likely to be the people on the ground for Labour, knocking on doors.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Yes, I agree with @alienfromzog , and I'm in the camp that thinks Labour is too soft on anti-Semitism. There is something rather unattractive about the siege mentality that says everyone who calls out anti-Semitism is lying and what they really want is NHS outsourcing, but at the same time, even I would agree that dredging up a single post from years ago is silly. If it was a pattern of posts then I'd agree there was a case to answer, but carelessness seems like a perfectly believable explanation in the circumstances.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    edited June 7
    I can hear the Blairites and Tiggers and Guardian editorial writers grinding their teeth that Corbyn pulled off another win. Damn the man, why won't he lie down and die, so we can have a right-wing Labour leader, as nature intended.
    Yes - that's the only reason people are critical of Corbyn's leadership. All the people who voted Green instead of Labour at the European elections only really wanted to enable the right-wing of the Labour Party to take back control.
    Anytime someone says they want to remain in the EU they're just saying that as a cover for ousting Corbyn.

  • Dafyd wrote: »
    I can hear the Blairites and Tiggers and Guardian editorial writers grinding their teeth that Corbyn pulled off another win. Damn the man, why won't he lie down and die, so we can have a right-wing Labour leader, as nature intended.
    Yes - that's the only reason people are critical of Corbyn's leadership. All the people who voted Green instead of Labour at the European elections only really wanted to enable the right-wing of the Labour Party to take back control.
    Anytime someone says they want to remain in the EU they're just saying that as a cover for ousting Corbyn.

    Very few Blairites, tiggers or Guardian editorial writers are Green voters so what exactly was your point?
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Carelessness with liking a video without reading the accompanying text =/= anti-Semitism. The boundary for anti-Semitism seems to be getting wider and wider.

    Actually a bit more than just hitting the "like" button. Ms Forbes responded to a tweet from someone who tweets as Ismail Ibn Saeed, in which he said, amongst other things,
    "David Cameron is trying to create a civil war ... He is using ISIS and other extremist to support his views. ... evidence in hand of the funding and of the creation of such extremists by the CIA and Mossad supported by British Imperialism..."

    Ms Forbes response, far from being just a "like" was as follows:

    "I have enjoyed reading this thread so much. ..."

    I know that Labour HQ have tried to minimise things and to claim that she just clicked a button but she actually admits to reading the whole thing - unless she was lying, which in this instance would be better but how good is that, better be thought a thoughtless liar than a thoughtful anti-semite.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    I can hear the Blairites and Tiggers and Guardian editorial writers grinding their teeth that Corbyn pulled off another win. Damn the man, why won't he lie down and die, so we can have a right-wing Labour leader, as nature intended.
    Yes - that's the only reason people are critical of Corbyn's leadership. All the people who voted Green instead of Labour at the European elections only really wanted to enable the right-wing of the Labour Party to take back control.
    Anytime someone says they want to remain in the EU they're just saying that as a cover for ousting Corbyn.

    That doesn't follow, which is why I didn't mention Greens. I don't see them as right wing, but maybe you do.
  • In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Carelessness with liking a video without reading the accompanying text =/= anti-Semitism. The boundary for anti-Semitism seems to be getting wider and wider.

    Actually a bit more than just hitting the "like" button. Ms Forbes responded to a tweet from someone who tweets as Ismail Ibn Saeed, in which he said, amongst other things,
    "David Cameron is trying to create a civil war ... He is using ISIS and other extremist to support his views. ... evidence in hand of the funding and of the creation of such extremists by the CIA and Mossad supported by British Imperialism..."

    Ms Forbes response, far from being just a "like" was as follows:

    "I have enjoyed reading this thread so much. ..."

    I know that Labour HQ have tried to minimise things and to claim that she just clicked a button but she actually admits to reading the whole thing - unless she was lying, which in this instance would be better but how good is that, better be thought a thoughtless liar than a thoughtful anti-semite.

    That looks more like a conspiracy theory than anti-Semitism, and plenty of people enjoy reading those for the entertainment value. Given that someone clearly spent time trawling Forbes' every recorded communication in the hope of finding something controversial do you not think if she actually held anti-semitic views there might be something a little more substantive?
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    I can hear the Blairites and Tiggers and Guardian editorial writers grinding their teeth that Corbyn pulled off another win. Damn the man, why won't he lie down and die, so we can have a right-wing Labour leader, as nature intended.
    Yes - that's the only reason people are critical of Corbyn's leadership. All the people who voted Green instead of Labour at the European elections only really wanted to enable the right-wing of the Labour Party to take back control.
    Anytime someone says they want to remain in the EU they're just saying that as a cover for ousting Corbyn.

    Very few Blairites, tiggers or Guardian editorial writers are Green voters so what exactly was your point?

    Well as far as I can see, when the Grauniad attacks him these days it's because he doesn't back a second referendum with sufficient enthusiasm.
  • Ricardus wrote: »
    Dafyd wrote: »
    I can hear the Blairites and Tiggers and Guardian editorial writers grinding their teeth that Corbyn pulled off another win. Damn the man, why won't he lie down and die, so we can have a right-wing Labour leader, as nature intended.
    Yes - that's the only reason people are critical of Corbyn's leadership. All the people who voted Green instead of Labour at the European elections only really wanted to enable the right-wing of the Labour Party to take back control.
    Anytime someone says they want to remain in the EU they're just saying that as a cover for ousting Corbyn.

    Very few Blairites, tiggers or Guardian editorial writers are Green voters so what exactly was your point?

    Well as far as I can see, when the Grauniad attacks him these days it's because he doesn't back a second referendum with sufficient enthusiasm.

    They attack him with whatever they think will stick with their fluffy-capitalism target audience. The fact that some on the left might agree with the criticism is incidental. The key demographic for the Guardian is wealthy middle class liberals, not socialists. They have a few socialist columnists in the same way as they have a few tory ones.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Yes, the Guardian has been unremittingly hostile to Corbyn. I see them as forming a bloc with the Blairites, in hoping that Corbyn messes up, and can be replaced by someone more palatable, i.e., a Blairite.
  • RocinanteRocinante Shipmate
    Speaking for myself, I couldn't care less whether the leader of the Labour Party is a Blairite, a Corbynite, a Mennonite or a whatever-the-fuck-ite, if they can somehow rescue us from the current clusterfuck.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    In good news, the Brexit Party couldn't even win in Peterborough when given an open goal ...

    In bad news, the Labour Party has just replaced a crook with an anti-semite- read more here.

    Carelessness with liking a video without reading the accompanying text =/= anti-Semitism. The boundary for anti-Semitism seems to be getting wider and wider.

    Actually a bit more than just hitting the "like" button. Ms Forbes responded to a tweet from someone who tweets as Ismail Ibn Saeed, in which he said, amongst other things,
    "David Cameron is trying to create a civil war ... He is using ISIS and other extremist to support his views. ... evidence in hand of the funding and of the creation of such extremists by the CIA and Mossad supported by British Imperialism..."

    Ms Forbes response, far from being just a "like" was as follows:

    "I have enjoyed reading this thread so much. ..."

    I know that Labour HQ have tried to minimise things and to claim that she just clicked a button but she actually admits to reading the whole thing - unless she was lying, which in this instance would be better but how good is that, better be thought a thoughtless liar than a thoughtful anti-semite.

    That looks more like a conspiracy theory than anti-Semitism, and plenty of people enjoy reading those for the entertainment value. Given that someone clearly spent time trawling Forbes' every recorded communication in the hope of finding something controversial do you not think if she actually held anti-semitic views there might be something a little more substantive?

    So saying that Mossad are doing nefarious stuff, is anti-semitic? There is certainly a dilution going on. Look, I'm going to say the Z word, Zionism, that's me fucked.
  • RicardusRicardus Shipmate
    edited June 8
    @Rocinante -

    Indeed - on that note, it is over a month since I emailed my local (PV-supporting, anti-Corbynite) Labour MP to ask how Labour was proposing to avoid a no-deal, repeating some of the arguments I've made on the Ship. I'm still awaiting an answer.

    I appreciate that events have moved on a bit since my email, and that if there is some Cunning Plan, they can't necessarily share the details with some random on the Internet - so I'd accept a generic 'Yes there is a plan but we can't tell you what it is', but utter silence is not reassuring ...
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Yes, the Guardian has been unremittingly hostile to Corbyn. I see them as forming a bloc with the Blairites, in hoping that Corbyn messes up, and can be replaced by someone more palatable, i.e., a Blairite.
    Clearly the only possible reason that someone might be critical of Corbyn is that they want a Blairite.

  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Yes, the Guardian has been unremittingly hostile to Corbyn. I see them as forming a bloc with the Blairites, in hoping that Corbyn messes up, and can be replaced by someone more palatable, i.e., a Blairite.
    Clearly the only possible reason that someone might be critical of Corbyn is that they want a Blairite.

    Well, no, obviously that's not the only possible reason for opposing Corbyn. Further to your earlier point, it's likely that some Greens are critical of him over the issue of a second referendum, not because they want a right wing Labour leader. But the Guardian has been hostile to Corbyn since he became leader, and they seem to favour the Blairites. My memory is that they had orgasms over the Tiggers, but then omne animal post coitum triste sunt. (Animals feel miserable after a shag).
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Ricardus wrote: »
    Well as far as I can see, when the Grauniad attacks him these days it's because he doesn't back a second referendum with sufficient enthusiasm.

    They attack him with whatever they think will stick with their fluffy-capitalism target audience. The fact that some on the left might agree with the criticism is incidental. The key demographic for the Guardian is wealthy middle class liberals, not socialists. They have a few socialist columnists in the same way as they have a few tory ones.
    Wait, Corbyn's a socialist now? I know the Tory-Brexit Party papers have been claiming that he'll nationalise the means of production the day he gets in, but the last time I fact checked he was a fluffy capitalist too.

    Your presumption of insincerity on the part of the Guardian seems to me motivated by the belief that criticisms of Corbyn can't be sincere. It's not persuasive. It certainly doesn't reassure me that criticism of Corbyn is unjustified.
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