The doctor said, " Your medical treatment options include "medically assisted dying".

Having physicians give you lethal drugs to end your life quietly and with dignity is legal in Canada. The discussion of it when it is discussed is by rational people, who are in no risk of dying soon, and if ill, the treatment is generally making them comfortable. The general consensus seems to be that people want to have control of themselves when, in the future, they are in difficult medical situations.

However, if you are elderly you may be told that the treatment options include surgery and medication, additional medical and nursing home care, but that it is expensive for the health system, and you will also have to pay out of your own funds. That it will be very trying on your tired family, any inheritance will be spent, and that there is this option of sedative drugs followed by another drug or two that will stop your heart, and you will drift off to sleep. basically asking "can we have you reviewed for your eligibility?".

Such is the sort of medical discussion that occurs now. It's not just doctors, it is also nurses and other practitioners. I'm horrified.

I have not told any health care providers to f*** off as it isn't my AP (aging parent) who discussed this with me, but I think I might if ever it occurs. It strikes me that it may be dangerous to allow a health care provider to talk individually with an AP or otherwise seriously ill person. After a little asking around, I'm having this sort of thing confirmed. I'm horrified.
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Comments

  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    I desperately wish I could arrange for that in the U.S. I'm horrified by the idea of wasting away for years with physical and/or mental disability with no quality of life. When my elderly dog reaches that point I will make the very difficult decision, knowing that while it will be painful for me, it is the most loving thing I can do for her. I wish someone would be able to do the same for me when the time comes, or that I could make pre-arrangements. I have a "living will," but I'm not sure that's worth the paper it's printed on, and I don't think it applies to severe dementia.

    Sorry to disagree with you NPNP.
  • Lily PadLily Pad Shipmate
    In our case, it was the exact opposite and my aging father had to be the one to raise the subject. I have never heard of what you are describing but I can imagine it could come out that way. In the nursing home where I volunteer, the attitude remains that there is no "out" even for those who fit the criteria for Medically Assistance in Dying. The physician who assists has to go through several steps including having a physician who does not already know the patient do an assessment. Health care providers have no role to play whatsoever in making or influencing the decision and it is framed in that way.
  • Having physicians give you lethal drugs to end your life quietly and with dignity is legal in Canada. ...
    [lots deleted here]
    ...I'm horrified.

    And you should be.

    I think the inevitable end of giving doctors the ability to end life prematurely is that the out of control spending on health care will enter into the decision of which care is "better".
  • edited April 23
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    I desperately wish I could arrange for that in the U.S. I'm horrified by the idea of wasting away for years with physical and/or mental disability with no quality of life. When my elderly dog reaches that point I will make the very difficult decision, knowing that while it will be painful for me, it is the most loving thing I can do for her. I wish someone would be able to do the same for me when the time comes, or that I could make pre-arrangements. I have a "living will," but I'm not sure that's worth the paper it's printed on, and I don't think it applies to severe dementia.

    Sorry to disagree with you NPNP.

    I presume you're not dealing with a life threatening illness, and are in distress about it just now. Your comments are exactly those which able and reasonably healthy people make. I've heard them in person, and in media this way. It does not unfold in this way for most.

    The topic as I raised it has actually got nothing to do with a fantasy of wasting away for years with a presumable difficult medical condition and no quality of life. It has to do with someone who has a condition which will require some public health money to be spent, usually elderly, whose concern for others is turned toward them and they are influenced to make a decision which they had not considered. They do have a number of consent checks along the way to the MAID procedure (medically assistance in dying), but it a distraction from providing palliative care, thoughtful and titrated pain medications. Why would practitioners be attentive to life needs if the person is going to be terminated?
    Lily Pad wrote: »
    In our case, it was the exact opposite and my aging father had to be the one to raise the subject. I have never heard of what you are describing but I can imagine it could come out that way. In the nursing home where I volunteer, the attitude remains that there is no "out" even for those who fit the criteria for Medically Assistance in Dying. The physician who assists has to go through several steps including having a physician who does not already know the patient do an assessment. Health care providers have no role to play whatsoever in making or influencing the decision and it is framed in that way.

    It perhaps has a different procedure elsewhere? I've no doubt that it is raised as a "treatment option" here.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    My instincts have been somewhat against medically assisted dying, though I would not say that my instincts are necessarily especially well informed. If it is really and truly being offered as a "treatment option" though it starts to look like a case of normalizing something that should not be straightforwardly normal.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    I presume you're not dealing with a life threatening illness, and are in distress about it just now. Your comments are exactly those which able and reasonably healthy people make. I've heard them in person, and in media this way. It does not unfold in this way for most. ...
    I have a terminal illness; a few weeks ago, after passing out during choir rehearsal at church, I found myself in a serious discussion concerning my DNR while lying prone on a gurney in the back of an ambulance.

    I do worry about the slippery slope. I definitely worry about the elderly and ill being pressured to choose that way out.

    On the other hand, I'm dealing with a fair amount of discomfort and pain already (I have breast cancer which has metastasized most significantly to my bones - my pelvis is in fragments), and things are not going to get better. I have resisted most painkillers - I like my brain better this way - but the time is probably coming when that will be unbearably difficult.

    I am not afraid of death, but I do fear the process of dying. Should it be too much for me to handle, I would like to have choices. I have held beloved cats, telling them that I love them, as they slipped painlessly out of this life. Shouldn't I have the same option?


  • The5thMaryThe5thMary Shipmate
    Rossweisse...dear God, I am so sorry to hear this. Yes, you should certainly have the option. I don't think I have ever known anyone that has spoken so honestly about their own imminent death. I'm just stunned...wow.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    I am not afraid of death, but I do fear the process of dying. Should it be too much for me to handle, I would like to have choices. I have held beloved cats, telling them that I love them, as they slipped painlessly out of this life. Shouldn't I have the same option?

    I would hope to have that option too having been with my father when he was dying in great pain and held my cats as they died.
  • :votive: for Rossweisse. I'm so sorry.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    I am in the same situation as Rossweisse . (But back down the track a-ways medically and pain-wise).

    I raised this almost a year ago with the hospital Social Worker - a Bright and Efficient Young Thing. The response was shock, horror and "not a chance - what with the Religious in this country" (Israel-Palestine).

    I also have a Piece of Paper (DNR, force-feeding, etc) all signed, sealed and saved on a computer somewhere in the Dept of Health - probably in the basement or a war-shelter being used as storage! So what weight it will carry in the event, I don't know.

    Luckily I live far from the centre of the Empire - so things are a bit less strict. Aswell, I am surrounded by people who have known me for decades (at the hospital). And I live on a kibbutz so have even more freedom from The Powers That Be ... it'd take them 20 minutes to even get here from the nearest garrison ... by which time any action would be academic
  • EutychusEutychus Admin
    edited April 23
    It perhaps has a different procedure elsewhere? I've no doubt that it is raised as a "treatment option" here.

    No doubt it is raised as a "treatment option" where you are, but that doesn't mean the option is raised, or always raised, in the precise and dystopian terms you depict in your OP.
  • Fawkes CatFawkes Cat Shipmate
    If things are as NPNP stated, then it's easy to take a moral position: pressure is being applied for people to end their lives, which is wrong: the reasoning is that it is better for the world in general rather than for the patient, which is also wrong.

    Yet it seems to be only NPNP who has seen this. So is there an issue local to NPNP's part of (I assume) Canada, or are the rest of our Canadian members (and anyone elsewhere where MAID is available) failing to see what is happening? Maybe we all need to check on what is really happening - and if the safeguards that we think are needed aren't working then protest and get effective controls into position.

    FWIW, my feeling is that MAID should be available as a route to a good death - but given the irreversible nature of the approach, it shouldn't be easily obtainable. The decision to use it should be the patient's, and taken because it is in their interests, not anyone else's.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    I would hope that the overall situation in Canada is not as NP describes it, but that said, cutting back on health spending is a consistent theme throughout the country. The danger, I think, is MAID progressing from being forbidden to being optional to becoming an actual social expectation for patients in certain medical situations. And what are the knock-on effects on other issues? If MAID is available, does first-rate palliative care become less important? I know what I think the answer should be, but in a chronically cash-strapped medical system there is a danger that the powers that be may not see things the same way.
  • Raptor EyeRaptor Eye Shipmate
    I think it a great shame if suicide is encouraged more than palliative care. In Britain, there are no NHS hospices. There are some run by charities, nearly always started and run by Christians afaik, but it is a postcode lottery. If the choice of a well run hospice were available, and people could see that they would be cared for and kept comfortable until the end came, suicide would be a less attractive option imo.
  • It's not at all about availability of assisted death nor an individual choice made freely. It's about pressures about it and about the effects which may be to not offer other care.

    There are some 20 pages of procedure documents about it locally. My concern is the offering as a treatment option by care providers whose other options are life saving. How does it also affect the care providers enthusiasm for providing life saving care? The procedures are designed to ensure legality and defensability.
  • ... Why would practitioners be attentive to life needs if the person is going to be terminated?
    ...

    I hope that's a rhetorical question, because we're all going to be "terminated" one day. I've not had any health care professional tell me, "Meh, why bother? You're going to die eventually from something."
    .... How does it also affect the care providers enthusiasm for providing life saving care? ....

    I think in the context of this discussion, the care providers usually know when they can only provide life-extending care to a patient, and nothing more. Not the same thing.

    Speaking of end-of-life care in general, it is my experience that many people don't understand what palliative care is, especially in immigrant communities. One of my colleagues was truly convinced that palliative care means the patient is given no medical care or food or water until they die.











  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited April 23

    Speaking of end-of-life care in general, it is my experience that many people don't understand what palliative care is, especially in immigrant communities. One of my colleagues was truly convinced that palliative care means the patient is given no medical care or food or water until they die.
    I teach a university module in end of life care and you are sadly right about people’s misunderstandings of what palliative care is, often due to fear. Yet there is evidence that moving some patients in end of life care from aggressive treatment to palliative care actually extends their life. I agree with your observation of the difference between life-saving and life-extending care, this is an important distinction for good quality end of life care.
    BBC iPlayer recently had an interesting Horizon programme on palliative care and when to stop treatments called ‘we need to talk about death’ but it doesn’t seem to be available at the moment.
  • This is a topic that strikes me deeply because of how both my parents left their bodies.

    My first impulse is to say don't worry the way the system is set up right now there's no danger of slippery slope, in fact, quite the opposite.

    My father begged to be taken out into the parking lot and shot, he was suffering so badly. I won't go into his condition but he was compos mentis and had the right to invoke his DNR which the attending physician refused to acknowledge. He was the first patient in that hospital to request assisted suicide. They had no policy or procedure and it was a total shitshow.

    The process here in Ontario has to pass several sniff tests that are set up to protect the physician not to help the patient expedite their deliverance from suffering.

    The sword "Primum non nocere" has two edges. In my father's case, two physicians had to sign off on the process. One refused to and did not appoint an alternate, and as physicians rotations go during holidays, my father was looking at six more days of torture before the next one could be brought into the loop. And then at least two more weeks of blah blah and paperwork review. For that poor man, six days might as well have been six years.

    He yanked his feeding tube seven times before the hospital capitulated and acknowledged his DNR. He ended up committing suicide - by refusing fluids - under heavy sedation administered by nurses. The "official" physician assisted never happened, Dad was gone seventy two hours after his wishes were respected.

    It became clear to me that nurses have been quietly assisting suicide in this manner for a long time and there has been no "slippery slope" that I can detect.

    AFF




  • SusanDorisSusanDoris Shipmate
    I have had a Lasting Power of Attorney for my sons for a long time and now have n extra Health and Welfare , registered, additional legal document which means that if doctors want to continue with treatment just to keep me alive, then my sons can override that decision and say, 'Turn it off' or whatever is appropriate.

    I know, though, that I would not choose deliberately assisted dying; not for any particular principle but I just know it's not for me
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    My family almost lost our 94 year old mother this spring. She fell and broke her left femur just below the ball socket to the hip. They replaced the ball socket. While recuperating she developed pneumonia and had a bladder infection. The long term recovery people called my brother who has power of attorney in matters of health. He told them to send her to the hospital. The infection was determined to be septic and they hit it with all they had. Had she slipped into a coma she has a DNR which we would have honored.

    A Social Worker asked her if she ever thought of death. She was offended by the question and said "Hell, no. I have everything to live for."

    Now she is home. Walking around the house with the aid of a walker.

    End of life decisions are really quite complicated. I think it depends on the individual. For those who have chosen to opt out when they think it is time. Go in peace. For those who want to live on, blessings.
  • BabyWombatBabyWombat Shipmate
    In the US there are 7 states, plus Washington, DC, that have legislation in place to allow what some call "Death with Dignity", others call "Assisted Suicide". Each has regulations in place regarding availability of the process.

    I live in one such state, where an individual can, after applying through the process, have a lethal dose on hand for use when they feel it is time to take it. Admittedly the process for obtaining the dose might be burdensome to some, but its purpose is to support a well thought out decision.

    Two concerns arise: the potential that a family member or care giver could intentionally hasten death by giving the dose to the patient, passing it off as a different medication; also the potential that the individual may expire without the assistance of that drug, and someone may either accidently take it or use it to murder someone.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    The key cases that lead to MAID in Canada are the Rodriguez and Carter Supreme Court decisions.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I'm inclined to think that quality of life is important. At the age of 90, my father went into the local-authority-run old people's home, and shortly afterwards was told by his GP that he needed a pacemaker. Being of a generation that never questions doctors, he had it fitted, but I don't think he ever felt comfortable with it. He lived for a further three years (which he may not have done without it), but I doubt that it improved his quality of life.

    A couple of weeks before he died, the staff at the home started to administer "end-of-life" treatments (having consulted my siblings; I don't know if Dad was compos mentis at that stage), which I understand to mean a change in medication which accelerates death.

    The cynic in me couldn't help noticing that the suggestion of end-of-life treatment coincided rather neatly with his savings running out; they'd cheerfully taken £1,000 a week from him, but if his pension (which was generous but not quite that generous) no longer covered his fees, they'd have had to stump up.

  • LandlubberLandlubber Shipmate
    I have on two occasions sat with (different) family members in a consultation to discuss their options for life-extending treatment. On both occasions, the doctors made an appointment for the treatment to be started, so if the patient chose not to go ahead but to opt for palliative care it would be their own free choice to cancel the treatment. In the circumstances (neither was in pain and both were able to make informed decisions) it seems like good practice to me.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited April 23
    Piglet wrote: »
    A couple of weeks before he died, the staff at the home started to administer "end-of-life" treatments (having consulted my siblings; I don't know if Dad was compos mentis at that stage), which I understand to mean a change in medication which accelerates death.
    In the UK, end of life treatment does not purposely involve changing to medication which will accelerate death. It might mean removing treatment which is not deemed to beneficial to quality of life though as end of life treatment aims to make patients comfortable. Sometimes treatments may accelerate death as a side effect of making patients comfortable (called double effect and sedation could be an example) but treatment must not have an intent of bringing about death.
    Contrary to many people’s beliefs, things like antibiotics are often still prescribed in end of life care as to not do so will cause the patient more distress.
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    I am not afraid of death, but I do fear the process of dying. Should it be too much for me to handle, I would like to have choices. I have held beloved cats, telling them that I love them, as they slipped painlessly out of this life. Shouldn't I have the same option?

    Yes, of course you should - but No_prophet's sceptre of the young hospital administrator pointing out to Mrs. Smith just how much of a burden she's being on the overstretched healthcare system, and isn't it an awful strain on her family, and wouldn't it be easier... also has a ring of possibility about it.

    I don't know how to support your rights whilst preventing the kind of Mrs. Smith who takes the merest hint from a medical professional as an order from being railroaded into a premature death she doesn't really want. Both of you are important.

    My instinct is to start by suggesting that assisted dying should never be offered by a medical professional, but that if a patient brings the subject up first, then there can be a discussion. But I'm not sure that's quite right either.
  • I don't know how to support your rights whilst preventing the kind of Mrs. Smith who takes the merest hint from a medical professional as an order from being railroaded into a premature death she doesn't really want. Both of you are important.
    It is not the medical professionals I fear but Mrs Smith’s relatives. The reason I object to assisted dying is that I have seen many elderly people in hospitals being manipulated in their decision making by their families.
  • MooMoo Kerygmania Host
    SusanDoris wrote: »
    I have had a Lasting Power of Attorney for my sons for a long time and now have n extra Health and Welfare , registered, additional legal document which means that if doctors want to continue with treatment just to keep me alive, then my sons can override that decision and say, 'Turn it off' or whatever is appropriate.

    My daughters have a medical power of attorney for me, but one of them asked me to sign a DNR myself. She said she would feel uncomfortable telling the doctors not to resuscitate me because she will inherit money when I die.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Piglet wrote: »
    A couple of weeks before he died, the staff at the home started to administer "end-of-life" treatments (having consulted my siblings; I don't know if Dad was compos mentis at that stage), which I understand to mean a change in medication which accelerates death.
    In the UK, end of life treatment does not purposely involve changing to medication which will accelerate death. It might mean removing treatment which is not deemed to beneficial to quality of life though as end of life treatment aims to make patients comfortable. Sometimes treatments may accelerate death as a side effect of making patients comfortable (called double effect and sedation could be an example) but treatment must not have an intent of bringing about death.
    Contrary to many people’s beliefs, things like antibiotics are often still prescribed in end of life care as to not do so will cause the patient more distress.

    Very much so. We've discussed this ourselves and with Dlet. At the right stage, the only treatment should be to make us comfortable and if we make that decision ourselves that is to be respected. If we're unable to make that decision, then we want the other to give appropriate instructions to the doctors and staff. We'd also like to go to a hospital in a neighbouring suburb which specialises in palliative care, that being supportive.

    There's a well known Catholic priest here, Fr Frank Brennan, who argues that the proper treatment may well be to withhold fluid and food, just moistening lips to minimise discomfort. He says that that is not euthanasia nor the sort of supported suicide that the OP talks of. In other words, an updated and thoroughly argued version of Clough. No church figure has ever come out to argue against him or denounce what he's said.
  • Clough? Google offers a lot of options ...
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    The5thMary wrote: »
    Rossweisse...dear God, I am so sorry to hear this. Yes, you should certainly have the option. I don't think I have ever known anyone that has spoken so honestly about their own imminent death. I'm just stunned...wow.
    Thank you, @The5thMary. I've had a lot of time to think about it! I have had a truly blessed life in many ways, and I'm supported by many generous and helpful friends. I try hard not to be a burden; although I suspect that needing to be pushed in a transport chair means that I qualify, said friends are consistently cheerful.

    I also have great docs, and I'm trusting that they won't let me suffer unduly. I love life, but one doesn't want to overstay one's welcome.
    :votive: for Rossweisse. I'm so sorry.
    Thank you. At least I've had time to go through some of my stuff and make arrangements. (I think I have someone to take my cats.)
    Galilit wrote: »
    I am in the same situation as Rossweisse . (But back down the track a-ways medically and pain-wise). ...
    And you are in my daily prayers. No surrender!


  • Palliative sedation. Which is what you describe with quiet induced almost asleep. Airway patent. Just comfort. Completely different. Felt reverent to me.
  • Scared by the idea of assisted suicide (NOT DNR, that's a very different thing). Because given the American healthcare system, and its non-affordability, I can so totally see how dozens of people I care for might be convinced that they ought to do this (suicide) for their family's financial sake, regardless of their own wishes. Some of them might do this against both their own and their children's wishes, even, purely on financial grounds.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    @Lamb Chopped, that's the part that frightens me. No one should ever be pressured or bullied into it.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Clough? Google offers a lot of options ...

    You shall not kill, but you need not strive
    Officiously to keep alive.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Arthur Hugh Clough, A Modern Decalogue
  • Raptor EyeRaptor Eye Shipmate
    It's not at all about availability of assisted death nor an individual choice made freely. It's about pressures about it and about the effects which may be to not offer other care.

    There are some 20 pages of procedure documents about it locally. My concern is the offering as a treatment option by care providers whose other options are life saving. How does it also affect the care providers enthusiasm for providing life saving care? The procedures are designed to ensure legality and defensability.

    The pressures are surely the greater on a dying patient to take the 'way out' if there is no caring palliative care available at all, and they know it.

    If there is life-saving treatment which might be given but is withheld for financial reasons, it would surprise me if that held up legally, however many pages of procedure they produced.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited April 25
    ((((Rossweisse and Galilit))))

    I'm not in favor of assisted suicide. My work with people living with a profound disability militates against it. I fear it becoming the easy way out for families. Most families are brilliant, but there are some you never see, and others who are right bastards. There is joy in the lives of all my clients. I see and hear it, joy even in a client that doesn't communicate intentionally. She is a slow walker, with a couple of habitual things she does, but she will make her way outside and sit in the sun if you leave the door open. She will grab greedily for her food before she sits down sometimes. She will laugh to herself unexpectedly. She will move close to you sometimes when you are assisting her.

    I hear and understand the stories of parents in great pain, parents asking to die. I have experienced mental anguish which might have approached that intensity, but I had the capacity to kill myself and stayed my hand. Because I didn't kill myself, I now have a second life, a better life. I never even considered this possibility when I considered killing myself. I couldn't do it to those around me. Death is the end of possibility in this life. Perhaps there is nothing left for people crying out for death. Deep down though, I don't believe that's true.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    I think I mean that I don't have the capacity within myself to believe that there is nothing left for people crying out for death. I'm sure they believe it with their whole being at that point.
  • I am concerned also about the effect on the people expected or requested to facilitate the death. For professionals expected to do this regularly, what does this do to them ? For family and friends, how do you tell someone you love you will not - if you can not bear to, what does it do to you if you do as you are asked despite how you feel about it ?

  • I am concerned also about the effect on the people expected or requested to facilitate the death. For professionals expected to do this regularly, what does this do to them ? For family and friends, how do you tell someone you love you will not - if you can not bear to, what does it do to you if you do as you are asked despite how you feel about it ?

    Medical practitioners can opt out of being involved in abortions, right? I'd assume that you could opt out of assisting in a patient's suicide in much the same way.
  • Yes, it would be a similar ethical opt out to abortion.
    Re: the family of those choosing assisted dying, I have read of a woman whose husband had a degenerative disorder and decided to opt for assisted dying. She didn’t want him to do so, she felt she had no say in the decision and had wanted to care for him. It read as if she has had part of her identity removed by his decision.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited April 25
    That gets really problematical, as the chances are high that the person requesting that is either in custodial care (and moving out of that isn't easy) or is in a hospice or hospital setting where he/she has a limited number of caregivers. Finding a willing one could be really hard, particularly with the Hippocratic Oath and all. And in response to that fact, I can just see government deciding to come crashing down on the unwilling caregivers for not providing this service, much as they have done on pharmacists etc. who have ethical issues with certain prescriptions. Basically, in a great many places it's going to be a lot easier to bully a care provider into going against conscience than it is to find an alternate source of medically assisted dying. And those who refuse will be made to look and feel like monsters for being so uncaring.
  • Lily PadLily Pad Shipmate
    In practice, it is turning out that there are doctors in an area who are interested in helping patients who have chosen MAID and they are put in touch with each other. The independent doctor who does a separate assessment is extremely particular in having the patient explain their choice. Locally, we have a doctor who is also trained as a lawyer and he has helped establish a way to have the discussion when asked that is caring and is within the palliative care program. This option/decision is only for those whose lives will be ending in a relatively short time.

    Heavenlyannie, when we went through the steps as a family, we felt similarly to that family. But the decision is in the hands of the individual. It was an extremely thorough discussion both with our family member and with the doctor separately.
  • Lily Pad wrote: »
    Heavenlyannie, when we went through the steps as a family, we felt similarly to that family. But the decision is in the hands of the individual. It was an extremely thorough discussion both with our family member and with the doctor separately.
    That must have been a very difficult time for all of you.
    As you say, the decision is for the individual - autonomy is important in good end of life care (I have a bunch of students currently writing an essay on that subject).
  • You can opt out as a practitioner here. You're required to either refer or to inform what the options are to access. It's hospital based here for actual injections / IV which ends life. The hosp people confirm the decision before doing it. Locally it is a different hospital which houses people waiting for long term beds which are freed up when long term care patients die, but the administration for all of the hospitals is a single authority, which also controls all of the long term care homes.

    The issue which continues to trouble me is that the info about the procedure is out there. People who are not those who do the assessments and provide it are influential about it. I trust the ethics of medical people rather implicitly; this one makes me worry. Has anyone else heard of nursing home personnel raising it?
  • Lily PadLily Pad Shipmate
    NP, here it is available for people in the home, in the same way that there is a strong program to support those who wish to die naturally at home.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, 8th Day Host
    ...Basically, in a great many places it's going to be a lot easier to bully a care provider into going against conscience than it is to find an alternate source of medically assisted dying. And those who refuse will be made to look and feel like monsters for being so uncaring.
    And that worries me just as much as the agony that cancer often brings to the dying, or the pressure being put on the "inconvenient" to go ahead and go.

    When it comes down to it, I will probably just tough it out.

  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    This is the legislation that covers MAID in Canada. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/2016_3.pdf
  • edited May 23
    This showed up in the local newspaper today. "Euthanasia by organ donation". They take you an operating room and being to remove your organs. The last one being your heart.

    One can only imagine someone needing a liver, kidney or heart in the same hospital.
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