Anglican Church of North America

I was intrigued to discover whilst reading the recent MW Report on Grace Church that if one clicks on the 'denomination' link it takes one to all reports for that denom, so I read all the reports filed for ACNA.

I was surprised to discover, for an ecclesial grouping that seems mainly to have come about over concerns of the Episcopal Church USA's 'regrettable' liberalism, what they mainly seem to share in common is heterophilia and over-head projectors.

And a quick nose around their website seems to indicate whilst the 1662 BCP is 'authorised' for use, their newly promulgated Pray Book 2019 is wholly in modern language -- including the unfortunate 'We believe' in the Credo that even the Roman Catholic Church restored to 'I'.

What's going on here? Are these Anglican versions of Con Evos? The preaching style in the reports seems very evangelical.

Discuss!
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Comments

  • The church name sounds like a clue to me.

    In the UK there are lots of churches called things like "Christ Church X Y Z" and their leaders describe themselves as 'Anglican Vicars' but they have nothing to do with the CoE although they are part of the Anglican Communion. They are very much Gospel Coalition types as far as I can tell. 'Grace' in a church name is often indicative of that.
  • Has the ACNA been growing? Declining? Are the different parts of it getting along well with each other?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    What's going on here? Are these Anglican versions of Con Evos? The preaching style in the reports seems very evangelical.
    Based on my limited exposure to ACNA congregations, and my even more limited exposure (as only descriptions on the Ship) to English Con Evos, I think that may be a good guess. In terms of worship style, some (not all) of the ACNA churches around here seem to be quite a distance from the TEC they broke away from. And there does seem to be a to-each-congregation-its-own approach. Some around here have been using TEC's 1979 BCP, which I think has been default until now. The generally predominant use in TEC (and groups that broke away from it more recently) of Rite II from the '79 BCP is probably at least in part the source of the preference for modern language you see in the new ACNA BCP.
    . . . including the unfortunate 'We believe' in the Credo that even the Roman Catholic Church restored to 'I'.
    This is probably a tangent, but my understanding is that while the singular "I believe" has been the liturgical tradition in Eastern Orthodoxy and in the Western Church (with the exception of translation of the ICET), the text of the creed as adopted by the Ecumenical Councils is the plural "We believe."

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Eutychus wrote: »
    ... In the UK there are lots of churches called things like "Christ Church X Y Z" and their leaders describe themselves as 'Anglican Vicars' but they have nothing to do with the CoE although they are part of the Anglican Communion. ...
    Not exactly 'lots'. There's a notorious one in Newcastle, and I think there's one somewhere in south London. If there are others, they have either kept very quiet about their existence or aren't having the impact they presumably would like to claim.

    In the ordinary CofE I would reckon being 'all services 1662' and 'having overhead projectors' would be two non-intersecting circles on a Venn diagram.

  • There is or was a Christ Church in Brighton and there is at least one here in France.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    There are lots of 'Christ Churches' in England but most are firmly part of the C of E. Quite a few are a fair way up the candle. By the way I would be surprised if the self-styled schismatic ones are in fact part of the Anglican Communion. They might call themselves Anglican and share some cultural and liturgical likenesses, but unless they were an integral part of an Anglican church from another country how could they be part of the AC?
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Yes, I don't think Christ Church as a church dedication is necessarily indicative of churchmanship, though there is a conservative evangelical one near me. I've encountered RC Christ Churches and con evo dedications to All Souls (not just the famous one).

    Also con evo Anglican churches in evangelical dioceses tend to have a much stronger relationship with the church hierarchy. Evangelical bishops tend to have a close relationship with evangelical churches locally, certainly that's the case in my own evangelical diocese.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    IIRC, Peter Jensen participated at a consecration of a schismatic bishop at that Newcastle church. Surely such an action would place him formally outside the Anglican Communion also.
  • My guess would be that many (although certainly not all) of those who left the Episcopal Church over dead horse issues, but who were higher up the candle, ended up in the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, leaving the ANCA rather evangelical by default. More "conservative" Anglicans seem to be polarized liturgically.

    My observation of the Ordinariate, which is perhaps unfair but has been reasonably extensive, is that they aim to be liturgically both more Anglican than the Anglicans and more Roman than other Latin-Rite Catholics. Predictably, I actually rather like the resulting liturgies, but they do give the impression of trying quite hard to make an impression.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate
    I recall one particular breakaway church group, the Anglican Mission in America. We called them "Anglicans Missing in Action," which seemed more apropos.

  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    I recall one particular breakaway church group, the Anglican Mission in America. We called them "Anglicans Missing in Action," which seemed more apropos.

    I see they have a parish here in Phoenix. Guess what will be happening soon? :wink:

    BTW, the home page of the website of the Anglican Mission in America displays the following error message: "Incorrect slider name. Please make sure to use a valid slider slug." Rest assured, there is an infinite list of things that Miss Amanda would rather do than use an invalid slider slug.
  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    angloid wrote: »
    There are lots of 'Christ Churches' in England but most are firmly part of the C of E. Quite a few are a fair way up the candle. By the way I would be surprised if the self-styled schismatic ones are in fact part of the Anglican Communion. They might call themselves Anglican and share some cultural and liturgical likenesses, but unless they were an integral part of an Anglican church from another country how could they be part of the AC?

    Yes but there is at least this one in Sheffield which claims to be Anglican but not CofE. It may or may not be in the same grouping as the Newcastle one. It comes out of a CofE parish (Christ Church Fulwood) who are Conservative Evangelical but it seems to now be entirely independent.

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 26
    'Anglican' seems to be used sometimes as a sort of adjective - perhaps it should be spelt with a lower-case 'a'?

    Christ Church Central, Sheffield, certainly has some 'anglican' features - the 1662 BCP, the 39 Articles - without at the same time being part of the mainstream C of E.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited April 26
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    I recall one particular breakaway church group, the Anglican Mission in America. We called them "Anglicans Missing in Action," which seemed more apropos.

    I see they have a parish here in Phoenix. Guess what will be happening soon? :wink:

    BTW, the home page of the website of the Anglican Mission in America displays the following error message: "Incorrect slider name. Please make sure to use a valid slider slug." Rest assured, there is an infinite list of things that Miss Amanda would rather do than use an invalid slider slug.

    Just spotted this. How better to deter peeps from your website/church than by ordering them to use a Valid Slider Slug?
    :grimace:

    I note, however, that Miss Amanda, as one might expect, is Not To Be Put Off.
    :wink:

  • OblatusOblatus Shipmate
    What grates me is conversations that include questions like "Are you Episcopalian or Anglican?" Both, of course, and Catholic too, but it's annoying to have "Anglican" co-opted and restricted to describing a new denomination.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    The time is long gone when 'Anglican' meant 'in communion with +Canterbury.' Things change. I am a Lutheran but I don't pretend to be in communion with every Lutheran out there.
  • churchgeekchurchgeek Shipmate
    I don't personally know much about the ACIA, but I wouldn't put much stock in what a name like Grace Church or Christ Church means in the UK having any relevance in the US. In my diocese (Michigan, which doesn't include the whole state, though long ago it did), there are at least 3 Christ Churches, and all of them are rather high up the candle. The Grace Church I'm familiar with in Detroit is rather unusual, because they haven't had a priest in over a decade but are managing to stay afloat by faith and gumption. They seemed MOTR to me back when I did visit, while they did have a priest.

    Here in Detroit there's a real anomaly, though: Mariner's Church, which used to be part of my diocese but split off many years ago (over the ordination of women, I think). It now styles itself as an "independent Anglican Church." I wonder where they get episcopal oversight? I guess I don't wonder enough to have looked into it. But I think "independent Anglican" is an oxymoron for sure! IIRC, they use the '28 BCP.
  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick Admin Emeritus
    In re: dedications. There is a Grace Church not a million miles from here that advertises 'Requiem Eucharist' and where incense is swung. Christ Church New Haven is one of the cradles of the Anglo Catholic movement in the US. That said, the famously 'low' diocese of Virginia is peppered with churches dedicated to Christ, Emmanuel, Grace, and an astonishing number of [Placename] Church.

    Another visit to the ACNA website raises another conundrum. Their dioceses in some cases are huge and in almost all cases over-lapping. Is ACNA a confederation of extra-mural Anglicans? Several dioceses, for example, seem to overlap all over North Carolina.

    And on liturgical matters: much of their web presence asserts the centrality of 1662, but I would be surprised to find any of them actually use it liturgically (it's hard enough to find in England!).
  • It's probably a marker of some deep fault in my character that I find the larger "continuing Anglican" bodies distasteful, but harbor a guilty affection and even some perverse admiration for the sort of bodies with names like "The Orthodox Anglican Old Liberal Catholic Church of North and South America," and which all seem to operate out of a chapel in suburban living room and consist of an archbishop, an auxiliary bishop, a mitred abbess and their dachshund.

    I even once shared a Prayer Book with Archbishop Simmons of the Anglican Church of the Americas at Mattins in Christ Church, Oxford. This was during the International Patristics Conference, at which exotic religious figures are known to abound. I did not then recognize him as the author a respectable book on Arnobius of Sicca, which I had in fact read.
  • It seems odd that the term "Anglican" is unlike any other one-word Christian denominational name -especially among major denominations - in that people, including many here, argue that it can only refer to one communion. I can't think of any other.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    IIRC, Peter Jensen participated at a consecration of a schismatic bishop at that Newcastle church. Surely such an action would place him formally outside the Anglican Communion also.

    Should. But the precedent of Donnie Robinson consecrating Dudley Foord was treated with lots of ooohs and aaahhhs and some hand-wringing, and that seems to be about the end of it.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    That's a bit different, as what was then CESA had as good a claim as CPSU to be the valid Anglican Church in Sth Africa.

    As an aside, Robinson was not in a good way for quite a while before he died, his mind having gone badly. He had no idea that he was in a church, let alone there because it was Marie's funeral and he was wearing purple because he was an archbishop. A sad end. He was nearly as popular throughout the whole diocese as Harry Goodhew.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    In Australia we are known as Anglicans. Anyone who says Church of England probably hasn't been to church since childhood.
  • CyprianCyprian Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    . . . including the unfortunate 'We believe' in the Credo that even the Roman Catholic Church restored to 'I'.
    This is probably a tangent, but my understanding is that while the singular "I believe" has been the liturgical tradition in Eastern Orthodoxy and in the Western Church (with the exception of translation of the ICET), the text of the creed as adopted by the Ecumenical Councils is the plural "We believe."

    Your understanding is correct. However, this is only because the Symbol was originally written as a conciliar statement. All of the decrees of the councils are in the plural form: we decree, we anathematise, we believe, &c. They were statements of the gathered fathers of the councils.

    It isn't necessarily a precedent for the liturgical use of the text.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Gee D wrote: »
    That's a bit different, as what was then CESA had as good a claim as CPSU to be the valid Anglican Church in Sth Africa.

    As an aside, Robinson was not in a good way for quite a while before he died, his mind having gone badly. He had no idea that he was in a church, let alone there because it was Marie's funeral and he was wearing purple because he was an archbishop. A sad end. He was nearly as popular throughout the whole diocese as Harry Goodhew.

    :cry:

    I hadn't heard that, and while I was no fan of his, I would wish that on no person.

    (Except maybe Deranged Donald and the imbecilic Feckless* Franklin barBilly).

    *I would use a stronger alliterative adjective but this is Ecclesiantics and as a Hosty Person™ I'm supposed to set a good example of edifying discourse 😏 😇
  • I wouldn't worry. All the evidence suggests that Trump is well down that road already. What you should worry about is whether he manages to start a war as a result.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate
    It's probably a marker of some deep fault in my character that I find the larger "continuing Anglican" bodies distasteful, but harbor a guilty affection and even some perverse admiration for the sort of bodies with names like "The Orthodox Anglican Old Liberal Catholic Church of North and South America," and which all seem to operate out of a chapel in suburban living room and consist of an archbishop, an auxiliary bishop, a mitred abbess and their dachshund. ...
    ...all of them wearing obviously home-made stoles...


  • I was once addressed in a fairly aggressive manner by a postulant of the Diocese of Southeast Florida as I had described myself as Anglican. He had understood me as identifying with one of the dissident groups because I had not identified as Episcopalian. After a few minutes of telling him that I was Canadian, and we had no Episcopalian church there (this puzzled him, but knowledge of Canada in the US is always a tad spotty), he visibly relaxed.

    ACNA in the Ottawa area is, as far as I can gather, stumbling along. To address a complicated departure dispute, they were allowed to buy an older downtown church (once S. George's but now SS Peter & Paul's), provided the signage relieved passersby of confusion. Another departing congregation uses a theatre on Sunday's and I am told is managing, while a suburban mission has filled a gap where the Anglican Diocese closed down a small congregation. I don't see them as expanding much, but I don't see them disappearing. They have an evangelical take on the BCP but use albs with stoles for most of their services, with an occasional cope thrown in.
  • We have a few of this sort of church in Ukland, but they seem to be very small (not that the mainstream CofE is doing all that well!), and, in some cases, declining rapidly towards oblivion.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    I recall one particular breakaway church group, the Anglican Mission in America. We called them "Anglicans Missing in Action," which seemed more apropos.

    I see they have a parish here in Phoenix. Guess what will be happening soon? :wink:

    I visited the Phoenix parish today. Report is up.
  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick Admin Emeritus
    edited May 14
    Miss Amanda has sent me down another internet rabbit hole as I attempt to disentangle ACNA, the Anglican Mission in (North) Americas etc. But down to the engaging report on Dessert Mission Anglican: more acoustic guitars! More overhead projectors! And grape juice!! The guitars and OHPs are unfortunate, but doesn't grape juice violate the rubrics. I suppose the question is which rubrics...
  • I once met an ACNA ordinand at a conference here in the UK and he seemed moderately high with a penchant for British ale. Which is exactly as it should be ... ;)
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Don't confuse the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA) with the Anglican Mission in America (AMIA), which is the denomination of the church reported on. They are not connected.

    From the latter's website's FAQ page:
    The Anglican Mission is grateful for the opportunity to have helped start the ACNA. We . . . support their ministry, and bless their people. It is our desire and privilege to come alongside any person, church, or diocese in the ACNA and serve them in introducing people to Jesus, making disciples, developing leaders, and starting new three-stream churches.
  • What do they mean by a 'three-stream' church?
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I believe they mean a church in which “three streams” of worship style and theological emphasis—Anglo-Catholic, Charismatic and Evangelical—peacefully co-exist.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    Actually, by "three stream" they mean Scripture, Sacraments and Spirit. An alternative take on the Anglican "three legged stool": Scripture, Tradition, Reason.
  • 'Scripture, Sacraments, and Spirit' (please note the Oxford comma) is quite a useful description, tying in, I guess, with Nick's post.

    Incidentally, thanks are due to Miss Amanda for clarifying the difference between ACNA and AMIA. The 'Anglican' church in America seems almost as fissiparous as 19thC Nonconformity in the UK!
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    Yeah, lots of Anglican grouplets moving around. There is an Anglican church near me that belongs to the Diocese of the Holy Cross, one of the "continuing" jurisdictions that broke off from the ECUSA in '77 when the latter decided to ordain women. From what I gather, this group is in communion with the Anglican Catholic Church and a few other "continuing" groups, and now apparently they are also linking up with the Polish National Catholic Church and the Union of Scranton. However they will not link up with ACNA or any "conservative" group that nonetheless ordains women. The joy of sects.
  • Quite so.

    And, without wishing to be uncharitable (really!), does anyone else actually care?

    We have several of these little 'Anglican' grouplets in Ukland, and some of them can only number their adherents on the fingers of one hand...whereupon, of course, their Archbishops etc. etc. assume ever more grandiloquent titles...
    :sunglasses:

    Someone I know described them as pimples on the bum of the Body of Christ.
    :flushed:
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Actually, by "three stream" they mean Scripture, Sacraments and Spirit. An alternative take on the Anglican "three legged stool": Scripture, Tradition, Reason.
    I think, as @Bishops Finger suggests, that could be another way of saying the same thing.

    FWIW, I got my info from here (pdf). The author of the document, Bishop Eric Menees of the Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin (an ACNA diocese) seems to connect Anglo-Catholics to Sacrament, Charismatics to the Spirit, and Evangelicals to Scripture.

  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    I think Howard Rice (but it could be David Cornick) in his book on Reformed Spirituality says something about three emphases in spirituality: the festal, the mystical and the rational. It is fairly easy to map those three onto the three streams. I think it is worth pointing out that the Reformed are the rationals of the rationals in their emphasis. It therefore is quite a skewed spirituality.
  • This might be a daft question, but bear with me as someone from this side of the Pond who has only visited New York - but who was a '£10 Pom' in Australia as a child in the early '60s ...

    The question is this ...

    How does the 'Anglican' aspect play out in the US as it's 'Anglo' connections recede into the dim and distant? Two nations separated by a common language and so forth.

    I can see how 'Episcopalian' can hold traction as it's descriptive of a particular ecclesiology, ie 'we have bishops and so aren't Presbyterian or Congregationalist'.

    You don't have to be Anglican to be Episcopalian in polity.

    Does the 'Anglican' angle - however defined - attract or repel?

    The ACNA ordinand I met came from the buckle of the Bible-belt way down in Tennessee. He told me that his church was bulging at the seams with refugees from 'Bible Churches', megachurches and all manner of conservative evangelical or fundamentalist churches who wanted 'more' in terms of liturgy, structure, the church year, ceremony and a sense of mystery etc.

    You could have all of that without it being 'Anglican' of course. Wouldn't some Lutherans in the US be able to offer something very similar?

    I 'get' Anglican churches in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa and other former colonies like Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria etc - even if it's a form of Anglicanism that might look strange to UK Anglicans.

    So it shouldn't be a puzzle to me to find an 'Anglican' emphasis in the US even after all this time since the original 13 States were among His Britannic Majestie's Dominions.

    But does the 'Anglican' element consist of? The ACNA ordinand I met was a huge Anglophobe - in quite an old-fashioned way for one so young.

    Is a certain studied 'Englishness' part of the equation? A Hollywood or Disney ersatz Mary Poppins thing? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
  • Whoop! I meant 'huge Anglophile'.

    He was far from Anglophobic.

    He seemed big on C S Lewis, Chesterton and the idea - contrary to the Bible Belt churches he described - that it was ok to enjoy a drink, a good meal or a fine cigar.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate
    ... He seemed big on C S Lewis, Chesterton and the idea - contrary to the Bible Belt churches he described - that it was ok to enjoy a drink, a good meal or a fine cigar.
    I would dispute that there is any such thing as a "fine cigar" (eww! the stench!), but I'm fine with the rest of it.

    The AMIA is frequently known as "Anglicans Missing in Action."

    For me, being a member of the worldwide Anglican Communion is important; it helps to set us apart from do-it-yourself church bodies. I value our British heritage, while also appreciating our homegrown aspects. (Well, most of them.)
    ...But does the 'Anglican' element consist of?
    Besides the Apostolic Succession (aka the Historic Episcopate), there's the liturgy. For me and my ilk, there's the Anglican musical tradition. My parish choir has sung at many British cathedrals (for me, the most spiritually important experience was at York Minster), and there is a definite sense of cultural connection.


  • WulfiaWulfia Shipmate
    The ACNA ordinand I met came from the buckle of the Bible-belt way down in Tennessee. He told me that his church was bulging at the seams with refugees from 'Bible Churches', megachurches and all manner of conservative evangelical or fundamentalist churches who wanted 'more' in terms of liturgy, structure, the church year, ceremony and a sense of mystery etc.

    You could have all of that without it being 'Anglican' of course. Wouldn't some Lutherans in the US be able to offer something very similar?

    They probably could, but the geography is off. Lutheranism is strongest in the Upper Midwest and Great Plains, which were centers of German and Scandinavian migration. Not nearly as many German or Scandinavian migrants settled in the South. In contrast, many early settlers of Virginia were Anglicans, including a number of Cavaliers fleeing the fallout from the (English) Civil War. Their descendants established Anglican/Episcopalian churches in the South. So when those "refugees" from evangelical Bible Belt churches go seeking "more", they are more likely to find an Anglican church to wander into.

    Perhaps there is a Lutheran mission opportunity here.
    But does the 'Anglican' element consist of? The ACNA ordinand I met was a huge Anglophobe - in quite an old-fashioned way for one so young.

    Since I'm not Episcopalian, I don't know how much of that is present in Episcopalian/Anglican churches. British cultural products are fairly popular here, so I am not surprised if that appeals to some. Who doesn't like Downton Abbey? (At least the earlier seasons!)

    On a deeper level, there are still historical and cultural resonances. We read about Scottish Enlightenment thinkers in school when we studied our Constitution; we did a whole year of British Literature in my high school English class. Even my MAGA-hat-wearing mother, after visiting England while accompanying my father on a business trip, told me that she felt strangely like she had "come home".
    He seemed big on C S Lewis, Chesterton and the idea - contrary to the Bible Belt churches he described - that it was ok to enjoy a drink, a good meal or a fine cigar.

    Having been raised in a fundamentalist church, I understand the sentiment. It's hard to describe how freeing it is to learn that there is a chance you won't go to Hell for being human, or even--gasp!--for having fun. Not all conservative evangelical churches are like that, of course. But some are.


  • Jengie JonJengie Jon Shipmate
    For those Anglicans who claim it is being in communion with Canterbury, may I point out that when you claim to be Reformed or Catholic this is precisely the point you do not get but the other way around?
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    There is certainly Anglophilia to varying degrees amongst US Anglicans (Episcopalians or otherwise). I've encountered a number of American Anglican monarchists (unsure if Episcopalian or not but seriously spiky). Chesterton is very popular. Remember that historically the Episcopal church has been an 'old money' denomination and even nowadays is more uniformly white and wealthy than many other US denominations or the Church of England. That is changing somewhat now however, though not all that quickly.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    For those Anglicans who claim it is being in communion with Canterbury, may I point out that when you claim to be Reformed or Catholic this is precisely the point you do not get but the other way around?
    Well said. It takes a well disposed neighbour to spot something so pertinent. Thank you @Jengie Jon. 👏👍

  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    Well whom does one have to be in communion with to be Reformed?
  • CruntCrunt Shipmate
    Jengie Jon wrote: »
    For those Anglicans who claim it is being in communion with Canterbury, may I point out that when you claim to be Reformed or Catholic this is precisely the point you do not get but the other way around?

    Others obviously get your point, and because I generally enjoy reading your posts, I'd like to understand it too.

    Could you rephrase / explain for me, please?
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