Upset people on Facebook

AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
Now, I know that the group (and I don't know if there is more than one) on Facebook which was set up by Quizmaster (I think) a while ago, is not affiliated to the fine ship we have sailed on for many years here.

However, there are a few (and I'm lazy so I don't post here very often anymore) shippies who are on the group and it just turns up every so often on my news feed. I don't take part in it much. Until today.

Someone (I don't know who - but someone can clarify) put on a very dodgy (I didn't think much of it at the time) cartoon this morning. (Joke was a lady was in confession saying that she'd killed a politician and the priest saying that she didn't have to confess about her community work). I didn't think much of it, but it raised the hackles of some people who really didn't like it. So, they complained, and when the admins woke up (quite literally as one was USA based) they removed the post. What happened next was a customer service problem - the people who complained didn't think it was done fast enough - so they spat their dummies out, calling the response too slow and left.

I waded in, for once, because I thought that their response was disproportionate to the issue (ie leaving) - and I wondered also how it reflected on what the ship really is - especially the boards. While I appreciate the FB group had nothing to do with the magazine or boards, I wonder if those who left really understood what the ship is about and whether they had ever bothered to come here or that they just got what they thought was the ship by stumbling across an unofficial fb group. In which case, it was only a very small half truth. A few of us did point out that this FB group is NOT the SOF but still - here's one response:

I quote from a Nigel Jones (Anglican rector based in London):
"Oh dear. I live in some parallel universe where it is definitely not ok to joke about killing MP's when one of them has actually been killed and others regularly receive death threats. Satire and edgy humour I accept as important but there is a line. Danny Baker crossed it with the BBC and Ship of Fools have crossed it with me and I am not persuaded by argument that the Fb page is somehow separate from the organisation itself. Too right I don't want to see posts like that on my timeline or indeed any other posts on this thread that defend it. Get me out of this group asap please and away from anything to do with Ship of Fools. I don't want to hear from you or of you again as an organisation and I think some long and careful reflection on this episode should lead you to decide that this is terminal. That's not one for me fortunately. I will though work with others as I have been to find a way for our public discourse to improve. We are at an all time low in my memory and this sadly is symptomatic. Best wishes to you all as individuals. Please respect my wish to leave by not responding. Hopefully I will be gone from here anyway."

So, I know that you don't have any control over FB groups, but I wonder (and I don't know if this is an All Saints thing - just seems a bit more RL, but move it if it's not) Should we have a response here from the ship? - do we know some of these people here - because it sounds like they don't really understand what the whole ship is about? Are we doing SoF a disservice by even having a FB group - official or not?

Comments

  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited May 23
    Admin jumped in as soon as they could and dealt with it. What more can they do?

    I am the main admin on a fb group, we have 5000 members. Admin can’t be online 24/7. If someone breaks the rules they are warned and/or banned. If a post breaks the rules it is deleted. The ‘report’ button is there for a reason.

    My group is also unofficial - it’s a group for Guide Dog owners but has nothing to do with the official charity. There is no way the charity can be in any way responsible for what people post there.

    This is true also of the Facebook page you refer to.

    I don’t know what more you want other than what has already been done?
  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    I am concerned that what the group is (1,500 members) does not fairly represent what the ship is, so I am wondering whether that group should either become affiliated or closed down. It seems to be a very poor relative to the actual ship, and I think it might be doing this place a disservice by not providing anything near what the real ship does.

    Who on the ship is a member of the group? Who on the group is not a member of the ship? (more worrying).
  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    I'm puzzled why a Facebook dispute is even being discussed here. As the OP stated, the FB group "is not affiliated to the fine ship we have sailed on for many years here."
  • There are two Facebook Groups called "Ship of Fools" (that I know of).

    One was set up by @Simon and regularly (if infrequently) carries items from the magazine section of the Ship here. It's still not under the board admin structure, so the admins here can't do anything such as removing posts, but is a sort-of official group for the Ship.

    The other was set up later by @Quizmaster and is the one where this cartoon was posted. It shares our name, and many current and former Shipmates are in that group. But it isn't in any sense an official group for the Ship, and @Quizmaster will need to explain why he set up a new group rather than join the existing one @Simon set up. I don't know what sort of things are shared there, as I'm not a member of that group.

    Posting something equivalent to that cartoon as it's been described would fall foul of C7 here, and would be pulled by the hosts as fast as possible. With a larger number of hosts/admins here we tend to be far quicker at spotting and removing things than is possible on Facebook groups (with far fewer admins, and also Facebook has a habit of not showing everything on your timeline).

  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    I'm puzzled why a Facebook dispute is even being discussed here. As the OP stated, the FB group "is not affiliated to the fine ship we have sailed on for many years here."

    Only that it reflects badly and is a poor substitute to the real thing. I wonder how much damage an unofficial group does to the rep of the ship.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    If the concern is the reputation of the Ship, perhaps Quizmaster (or anyone else who has the proper access) could add a brief statement to the main page? Something like "not affiliated with nor sponsored by ShipOfFools.com"? Or maybe borrow some legal wording (I'm not a lawyer!) from the small print on one of those TV ads where a viewer could easily get confused. Like ads for Medicare-related health plans that have Medicare in the name, but aren't in any way affiliated with the US gov't's Medicare program.

    Just a quick thought. YMMV, etc.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I'm in the Facebook SoF group, and I saw the cartoon last night. I thought it was in rather bad taste and promptly forgot about it, though I admit I didn't link it in my mind to the abhorrent murder of Jo Cox, MP. By the time I saw the posts about it, it had been removed, and with 20/20 hindsight, I think that was probably the right thing to do.

    As for the Ship having a presence on Facebook, I think it's rather a good idea, as it offers another way to connect with each other and get to know each other a little better.
  • TinaTina Shipmate
    What's worrying (and I don't know what we can do about it) is that the guy (Nick, not Nigel) quoted by Annie above, refuses to accept that the Ship is not responsible for what was posted in the unofficial Fb group, and seems intent on judging the Ship's entire content on that one post.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    I thought that was rather unfortunate too.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Piglet wrote: »
    I thought that was rather unfortunate too.

    "Unfortunate" is a fine euphemism for "asinine."
  • Apart from removing the cartoon, I don't see what more could be expected.

    I'm an admin of a FB page about Scottish women in local history. For some reason we get men thinking that we are running some sort of a dating page. I assume they search for "women", don't bother to look at the page, and add inappropriate comments (fortunately we've not had anything obscene). It's tiresome and I have to keep deleting.

    The last four women featured died in 1960, 1847, 1912 and 1093, so clearly their dating days are over, quite apart from the fact that they were intelligent and capable women who wouldn't have looked twice at the sort of men who post ungrammatical comments on the page. But what can an admin do? Just delete, delete, delete.

    It's Facebook. Surely all anyone can expect is that offensive posts are deleted.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    My ex-wife wasn't happy unless she had something to be mad about. I'd guess this guy is cut from the same cloth.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited May 23
    I did consider starting a Purg thread: "How soon is too soon?"; and not giving the source. I can see the concern, but I wonder if the offended are as concerned for the memory of poor Lincoln or JFK. Is there a cut-off? Not sure.

    I'm with GK above: an explicit "Not affiliated..." would seem to be called for for any such group spun off from a website, band, university, etc. Just my thoughts.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Re "not affiliated":
    I plugged "fan site not affiliated with" into Duck Duck Go. I've seen such statements on fan sites, and I think maybe that's the closest situation to this. Site owners want to make sure they aren't in legal hot water with production companies, performers, and media moguls, so they put "cover your a**" (CYA) statements like what you'll see in those search hits.

    FWIW.
  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    Tina wrote: »
    What's worrying (and I don't know what we can do about it) is that the guy (Nick, not Nigel) quoted by Annie above, refuses to accept that the Ship is not responsible for what was posted in the unofficial Fb group, and seems intent on judging the Ship's entire content on that one post.

    And that's what concerns me too. He's made a judgement about SoF from reading something on Facebook, found it unacceptable and then promptly left. Anything now to do with the ship he'll avoid or condemn, which is not a good thing.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited May 24
    Our Guide Dogs fb page is titled ‘unofficial’. In the early days the charity were wary about the mere existence of it. But now we are recommended by staff and many staff are members and useful contributors. (the Head of Communications joined, but doesn’t post. I think she’s a spy, but that’s fine :mrgreen: )

    The bloke is right to object to the ‘joke’ but it’s very odd of him to reject the Ship when he hasn’t even visited here. He’s clearly not very Internet savvy or he’d know fb and other social media needs careful navigation.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    I think us "Internet savvy" people (if I may include myself) do not realise how others view the darn thing... The things my mum comes out with, drawing false links between here and there, or using the wrong terms*, amazes me. I guess it gave me an indication of how my mechanic must see me! :lol:


    * she rang for help with Gmail. I asked if she was using the browser version or her app. She said internet browser. 35 mins later when I ask for a screenshot via SMS as we're getting nowhere I get a picture of the app... "But it's the internet!", was her cry.
  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    The bloke is right to object to the ‘joke’ but it’s very odd of him to reject the Ship when he hasn’t even visited here. He’s clearly not very Internet savvy or he’d know fb and other social media needs careful navigation.

    I had a snoop around his FB page, which I could see everything of, even though I'm not friends with him - would suggest that he's not aware of good privacy settings. So perhaps he's not as savvy as we would assume he is. Also, he hasn't left the group - I am not sure if he knows how. He's also a friend of a friend - Tigger here ((who I don't think came across to the new boards @Ruth (I can't find him or his wife)) who I would consider probably quite conservative - but not sure.

    I have asked the bloke if he's been on the actual ship or not - so far, no reply.

  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    Oh, this was another comment by our friend Nick. I think this was the one that got me more. Note the use of the word "creator"

    "To those of you who are in the satirical Christian group, Ship of Fools, which has often been very funny, it is time to leave the group and get it closed down. The creator has posted about killing an MP as an act of community service. It's been up several hours with no response to complaints. Totally disgraceful. Sadly, shows lack of decency and judgment going forward as well."

    So, the ship's rep is not in tatters, but I don't think this did it any favours. @Quizmaster , please can you respond. Several good suggestions about renaming FB group to give degree of separation and a disclaimer. I am now even thinking that it should be closed down...
  • LothlorienLothlorien All Saints Host
    As we said before. Hosts would have jumped on thst remark on board. FB is nothing really to be connected with here but he cannot see that.
  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    Do you think the ship should be more aware of what happens in other places or things which are done in its name and act accordingly?
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Does the Ship of Fools have a monopoly on that moniker?
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    Does the Ship of Fools have a monopoly on that moniker?

    No, but one entity may have a "passing off" case if another entity misleads others into thinking there is a connection, especially one that damages the first or gains an unfair advantage for the second.

    Note: IANAIPL
  • PriscillaPriscilla Shipmate
    I have to admit I saw the cartoon, and in the current state of British politics, especially with Mr Forage on the rampage, I found it mildly funny. I didn't associate it with any real life events, and was a little surprised at people's reactions.
  • AnnieD wrote: »
    Do you think the ship should be more aware of what happens in other places or things which are done in its name and act accordingly?

    That's a question for Simon, and how actively he wants to protect his copyright/trademark.

    As far as we Board Admins are concerned, we have no power or authority over either of the Facebook groups. Neither (as far as I know) do we particularly desire any such power or authority.

    As far as the specific post is concerned, I've seen it now and thought it was mildly amusing. Certainly not as offensive as, say, some of the jokes submitted to The Laugh Judgement lo those many years ago. I bemoan the fact that so many people these days seem (or worse, pretend) to get ludicrously offended over nothing.

    As far as the chap quoted in the OP is concerned, I think blaming the Ship itself for something posted on what amounts to a Facebook fan page is like blaming Ariana Grande for something posted on one of her myriad Facebook fan pages - utterly ridiculous, but done time and again by idiots. No big loss.
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    ...
    As far as the chap quoted in the OP is concerned, I think blaming the Ship itself for something posted on what amounts to a Facebook fan page is like blaming Ariana Grande for something posted on one of her myriad Facebook fan pages - utterly ridiculous, but done time and again by idiots. No big loss.

    The level of anger expressed seemed totally out of proportion to the incident itself. God invented the scroll bar and mute button for a reason!

    I was going to post a similar comment on the thread in question last night but got distracted by other things. This page is run by Shipmates for Shipmates. It's nothing to do with the Ship. (It could be clearer about that but ... ) You wouldn't hold George Clooney etc responsible for material posted on a fan site or expect him to "fix" it so why would you blame the Ship.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Perhaps "Friends of the Ship of Fools" would give the right kind of distance?
  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    mousethief wrote: »
    Perhaps "Friends of the Ship of Fools" would give the right kind of distance?

    Excellent suggestion

  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    Seconded.
  • QohelethQoheleth Shipmate
    @Quizmaster was "Last Active January 11" on here.
  • Ship of Fools can't be copyrighted as it was originally an allegory in Plato's Republic that has been used as the title of various books and paintings over the centuries, so many songs and bands and a couple of films.
  • IANAL, but I don't think it's that simple. You may have the name McDonald and state that the name is common, but try to open a restaurant using your name and see how long it takes for the lawyers from a chain of "food" outlets to come calling ...
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    Yes. Decades back, a man started McDavid's in Israel. IIRC, there was much fuss.
  • Fawkes CatFawkes Cat Shipmate
    Realistically, would anyone have the resources to pursue a Facebook group through the courts for passing themselves off as something to do with this site? And that's assuming that anyone had the desire to do so in the first place.
  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    ...


    The level of anger expressed seemed totally out of proportion to the incident itself. God invented the scroll bar and mute button for a reason!

    I was going to post a similar comment on the thread in question last night but got distracted by other things. This page is run by Shipmates for Shipmates. It's nothing to do with the Ship. (It could be clearer about that but ... ) You wouldn't hold George Clooney etc responsible for material posted on a fan site or expect him to "fix" it so why would you blame the Ship.

    I agree with you about the amount of anger expressed and the George Clooney thing. That was my initial rant on FB.

    But also just want to make it clear, I am not blaming the ship for anything here. I just wanted to raise awareness of what has happened, and as a loyal (but lazy - I haven't visited for a long time - sorry) shipmate, I am concerned about the effect that this may (or may not) have on the Real Thing.

    I would hate to think that people draw the wrong conclusions by seeing what was on that group and thinking that the ship is the same thing. (A few edgy memes and bad jokes/ piss takes with the odd smattering of articles thrown in). So, I just come to wave and point my spatula* in your general direction to see what people thought.

    *I used to be the ship's galley maid. (Though these days, I should probably just have a water pistol).
  • MiffyMiffy Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Perhaps "Friends of the Ship of Fools" would give the right kind of distance?

    Excellent suggestion

    Seconded again.

    It’s a tricky situation. I support an animal rescue organisation which has spawned several spin off FB groups, and occasionally questionable stuff appears. All credit to the moderators who generally manage to keep things in check. And it’s made clear which is the official group.

    I wasn’t offended as such by the cartoon, in fact, was within a nanosecond of pressing ‘like,’ when something stopped me. I was thinking of Jo Cox actually and of the current volatile political situation.

    I think that the offended poster did overreact somewhat and it’s a shame that he’s jumped to conclusions about the Ship itself without, apparently, having given us a look. It’s a shame, especially as I think this kind of spat plays into the hands of what I think of of the “this here new-fang led” internet brigade!” I’d hate to see The Ship losing it’s edginess.

    But...as with everything, I guess it’s best to remember to engage brain before posting.


  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    I think it is fair to assume that an FB group called 'Ship of Fools' featuring humour with a religious connection might be an official offshoot of SoF. It's obviously not a fansite in the way the example above would be.

    So I think the best thing to do would be:
    1) Change the name of the FB group to something that makes it clear it's unofficial
    2) Put some text there to ensure this is spelled out

    Whether the cartoon warranted this sort of reaction is a whole other question (and indeed there's already a thread). I think the main issue here is to clarify what the FB group is.

    I like 'Friends of the Ship of Fools' myself.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    I think some here are over-estimating the amount of control shipoffools.com has over an unofficial, unaffiliated Facebook group which has been set up by someone who isn't Ship's Crew.

    That is, there is none. Someone can ask the group's moderator politely, but that's about it.
  • roybartroybart Shipmate
    I just Googled "Facebook Ship of Fools" to see what is there to see. First thing up was a link to "Gruff, thrashy [sic], beer-soaked punk rock in the southern Ontario tradition." I can see why some browsers might -- like that Anglican vicar from London -- become confused.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    The term "Ship of Fools" long predates this website. People may become confused. On the other hand people are, in general and all other things being equal, idiots, so it's not entirely unexpected.
  • ChoristerChorister Shipmate
    I was reading through this thread and thought 'Friends of Ship of Fools' would be a good name, so entirely agree with the person who suggested it. My original thought was 'Ship of Fools Unplugged', which would also do, but perhaps not be quite so clear.

    To put in a good word for the FB page, there have been many, many funny (and serious) cartoons and pictures posted, the huge majority of them have been in perfectly acceptable taste - slightly edgy as you would expect, but not offensive. It would be a shame if one error of judgement was to colour the whole chance for a group of SoF friends to 'meet' up and share picture-based material in a way that isn't actually possible (by direct posting) on the main Ship.
  • ZappaZappa Ecclesiantics Host
    Climacus wrote: »
    I think us "Internet savvy" people (if I may include myself) do not realise how others view the darn thing... The things my mum comes out with, drawing false links between here and there, or using the wrong terms*, amazes me. I guess it gave me an indication of how my mechanic must see me! :lol:


    * she rang for help with Gmail. I asked if she was using the browser version or her app. She said internet browser. 35 mins later when I ask for a screenshot via SMS as we're getting nowhere I get a picture of the app... "But it's the internet!", was her cry.

    Good God ... I must be your mother!
  • PantsPants Shipmate
    Has anyone message Nigel with all of this?!
  • Tina wrote: »
    What's worrying (and I don't know what we can do about it) is that the guy (Nick, not Nigel) quoted by Annie above, refuses to accept that the Ship is not responsible for what was posted in the unofficial Fb group, and seems intent on judging the Ship's entire content on that one post.

    The idiots you will always have.

    I agree with him that the "joke" was in poor taste, but given that the post (from a private individual) was removed by an admin of the fb group as soon as they became aware of it, I'm not sure what more he wants from the fb group, let alone the Ship herself.

    Idiots are not in short supply in Britain at the moment - one more hardly makes much difference.
  • AnnieDAnnieD Shipmate
    Pants wrote: »
    Has anyone message Nigel with all of this?!

    He's been tagged a couple of times on FB - but no response. I think we're not going to get a direct response. Alan pointed out that he's not been here since about January.
  • SpikeSpike Admin
    He’s posted unrelated stuff on the group since all this blew up, but hasn’t actually commented publicly about it
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