It seems that we have some prickliness here. I am not calling out individuals since there are a few different prickles. Just a reminder...this is Heaven, and we really do appreciate Commandments 3 and 5!
I have many experiences with prickliness, Gramps49! Many hours have been spent removing prickly pear spines from the hands of small humans and the faces of curious cats!
No, I meant less, as in less irritated, rather than fewer responses. No comma between the less and irritated as the two adjectives are linked; there should be a comma if I was listing both the fewer and irritated adjectives as both relating to the responses separately.
Thank you, understand now (I think this does not offend the admonition).
'Prickliness' - the quality of being prickly: just as stickiness is the quality of being sticky. And pickiness from being picky. Trickiness from tricky.
@deletoile In which universe is written French phonetic? It's not, at least not to my oeil (=eye) and oreille (=ear).
Depends how you define phonetic. If it's "can predict the pronunciation from the spelling" French does pretty well once you know the rules. Much better than English, any way.
Same is true of Irish, believe it or not.
I can't think of any modern languages that are true the other way - accurately predicting spelling from pronunciation. The most phonetic language I know is Welsh but even then in many positions u and y*** are pronounced exactly the same (and the same as i in some dialects)*. Sounds tend to fall together as languages evolve so once a script has been in use for centuries one to one correspondence is lost.
*The astute reader will notice that this is the same process that produced iostacism in Modern Greek, the development of French U and German Ü, and the shift of Old English y to the same value as i**
**Tolkien had the same development happen in Sindarin as spoken in Gondor.
***Cymry and Cymru are actually the same word but with some hesitation over the orthography of the final letter in Middle Welsh texts.
You possibly would have less irritated responses if you hadn't commented that Brits are inventing unnecessary words.
My response wasn't irritated as such, but yes, mousethief opened the door by adding commentary rather than confining himself to the question!
Anyway... on the question of phonetic languages, I always found German highly phonetic, to the point where I did very well in a reading-out-loud test in a school competition when I wasn't entirely sure what I was reading.
Danish is kind of phonetic, once you're prepared to accept that there is a myriad of vowel sounds and the consonants don't tend to matter much...
B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
So if you wanted a noun to describe a person who broke into houses and stole things, what noun would you use?
My best friend at school had Scottish roots, and spent way too much time trying to get people to say Cuh-NEIGH-gie instead of Car-nee-gie. The US pronunciation (as in CAR-nuh-gee Hall) was unknown to us.
There is an Arundelgate in Sheffield. Named one imagines for the town in Sussex (or possibly some Duke or Earl thereof), which is pronounced with the stress on the first syllable.
The Sheffield street has the stress on the second, which really hurts my ears.
B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
At common law, and still in some jurisdictions (including the one where I live), burglary is a specific form of breaking and entering. Burglary is breaking and entering into a house (meaning any residence or dwelling) at night for the purpose of committing a felony. Where I live, it’s first degree burglary if the house is occupied at the time of the burglary, and second degree burglary if the house isn’t occupied at the time.
A similar act done at a place of business or during the day would be breaking and entering but not burglary.
B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
So if you wanted a noun to describe a person who broke into houses and stole things, what noun would you use?
B & E is what burglaries are usually called to my ears. Break and enter. A separate charge or two would be theft and possession of stolen property. "Burglar" sounds quaint and antiquated to me.
At common law, and still in some jurisdictions (including the one where I live), burglary is a specific form of breaking and entering. Burglary is breaking and entering into a house (meaning any residence or dwelling) at night for the purpose of committing a felony. Where I live, it’s first degree burglary if the house is occupied at the time of the burglary, and second degree burglary if the house isn’t occupied at the time.
A similar act done at a place of business or during the day would be breaking and entering but not burglary.
And then did a search on "burglary" which didn't turn anything up within the Criminal Code of Canada
Another one that seems to be changing in Canada re how people talk about it is murder versus homicide. We have first degree murder which means it was planned, and then second degree and manslaughter which are also murder but mean the circumstances are different. I don't know the details very well. But increasingly the media (I notice CBC) is calling all murder "homicide". I didn't hear this term before I don't know when exactly.
So the pirates in the Pirates of Penzance were perfectly correct using the word when approaching the Major-General's house, intending to enter for the purpose of committing a felony.
Another one that seems to be changing in Canada re how people talk about it is murder versus homicide. We have first degree murder which means it was planned, and then second degree and manslaughter which are also murder but mean the circumstances are different.
No, manslaughter is not murder. Unless things are different in Canada from anywhere else I’m familiar with, manslaughter is homicide that does not meet the definition of murder, generally because the intent to kill is absent.
As to what the media says, my guess is they default to homicide because the intent of the accused has not yet been proven, or because the circumstances surrounding the death are unknown.
As to what the media says, my guess is they default to homicide because the intent of the accused has not yet been proven, or because the circumstances surrounding the death are unknown.
I think the use of words like homicide in places like news reports is a distinctive North American feature. UK reports, IME, would tend to say something like "a man was killed".
Question for the Brits: I've been an avid Dorothy L. Sayers fan and I very much enjoyed Gaudy Night and Busman's Honeymoon. I especially enjoyed Lord Peter's scamp of a nephew, St. George, AKA Jerry AKA Gherkins. As St. John (as a given name, not the saint or Gospel) is pronounced pronounced sin-jun is there a special way that St. George is pronounced? Thanks.
Lyda, I'm an avid Dorothy L Sayers fan too, and I've never come across a special way to pronounce it. I would say either Saint George or Snt George, as if it were a church name. But I could be wrong. She uses a few names I've never been quite sure about, like Urquhart.
My classic mispronunciation was when I walked into the bathroom of our new house, aged 13, and said, "Oh look, it has a bi-dett!"
232 (1) Culpable homicide that otherwise would be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who committed it did so in the heat of passion caused by sudden provocation."
Urquhart is pronounced more or less the same way as a northern English speaker would pronounce Erk-ut with the second syllable having an undefined schwa sound.
Danish is kind of phonetic, once you're prepared to accept that there is a myriad of vowel sounds and the consonants don't tend to matter much...
Slight tangent - a couple of years ago we were in Denmark (Skagen) on Midsummer's Day and joined in a local celebration, including singing a hymn and the Danish national anthem. The words (in Danish) were on a leaflet so I joined in... despite not speaking the language. The tour guide was amused by this (I don't think any of the other tourists were singing) and commented on it. I said that after years singing in Welsh, attacking Danish held no terrors for me!
(I don't imagine that my pronunciation was even vaguely accurate, but I enjoyed the attempt and no-one complained at my mangling of the Danish language)
Another one that seems to be changing in Canada re how people talk about it is murder versus homicide. We have first degree murder which means it was planned, and then second degree and manslaughter which are also murder but mean the circumstances are different. I don't know the details very well. But increasingly the media (I notice CBC) is calling all murder "homicide". I didn't hear this term before I don't know when exactly.
Manslaughter is most definitely not murder - it is manslaughter. The result of each is the death of a person, but very different intents. In the old days here (and in England and Wales; I imagine non-French Canada as well) the result of a conviction was very different as well. For murder, the mandatory sentence used be death whereas for manslaughter it was imprisonment for a period up to life.
@deletoile In which universe is written French phonetic? It's not, at least not to my oeil (=eye) and oreille (=ear).
I can't think of any modern languages that are true the other way - accurately predicting spelling from pronunciation.
Finnish. Easy peasy.The only "trick" - and it's not a trick, it requires only practice - is to be able to distinguish between a single vowel/consonant and a doubled one. Like German, (and other languages), in Finnish the doubled letter doesn't change the phoneme, but the length. Like in music, an A# is an A# whether held for one beat or two. Attention must be paid, though, as it changes the meaning, e.g., puna = red, punna = hot toddy.
@la vie en rouge re: Russian, mostly but not entirely, e.g., -ogo- sometimes g=g, sometimes g=v; devoicing of some final consonants, not others.
Maori and probably most Polynesian languages are phonetic.
Japanese is if you're writing everything in hiragana, but given it has so many homophones and doesn't have spaces between the words in a sentence Chinese characters are needed for clarification.
232 (1) Culpable homicide that otherwise would be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who committed it did so in the heat of passion caused by sudden provocation."
"Reduced to manslaughter" means "not convicted of murder". The point of the section is indeed, as has been said, that "homicide" is a wider category that covers both murder and manslaughter.
Danish is kind of phonetic, once you're prepared to accept that there is a myriad of vowel sounds and the consonants don't tend to matter much...
Slight tangent - a couple of years ago we were in Denmark (Skagen) on Midsummer's Day and joined in a local celebration, including singing a hymn and the Danish national anthem. The words (in Danish) were on a leaflet so I joined in... despite not speaking the language. The tour guide was amused by this (I don't think any of the other tourists were singing) and commented on it. I said that after years singing in Welsh, attacking Danish held no terrors for me!
(I don't imagine that my pronunciation was even vaguely accurate, but I enjoyed the attempt and no-one complained at my mangling of the Danish language)
Funnily enough I have resolved to learn the words of the Danish national anthem, having been very caught up in watching the football matches in Copenhagen that I wanted tickets for way back in December 2019 (before those tickets were oversubscribed about 12-fold, and the tournament was pushed back a year, and travel from Australia for recreational purposes was banned, and Christian Eriksen had a heart attack).
Being able to read the fan banners is no longer enough.
To set out deliberately to kill someone would be 'murder'
If death were caused during some altercation without a previous intention to kill then it would be 'culpable homicide'.At least that is a term which one hears more commonly now in the UK.
I can't speak for Scottish law, but in England and Wales it's murder if one intends to kill someone and they die or if one intends to cause them grievous bodily harm (gbh) and they die. It counts as 'intend' if one is reckless as to whether they die or not. It's manslaughter if they die as a result of a lesser intention, such as to cause actual bodily harm, or if they die as a result of ones culpable act or negligence. A murder charge automatically contains within it the possibility of being convicted of manslaughter if murder is not proved.
It's also murder if you intend to kill one person but someone else dies in stead.
English and Welsh law don't go in for degrees of murder. It's one or the other, murder or manslaughter.
Changing the subject, @NOprophet_NØprofit the fluidity of English pronunciation may well be one of the reasons why the spelling isn't phonetic. If words had to be spelt phonetically, words like 'midwife' and 'midwifery' would have to be spelt in a way that concealed their relationship.
I suppose a person might argue that people should be made to pronounce related words so that they sound more like each other, but that's not the way either people or languages work.
As to what the media says, my guess is they default to homicide because the intent of the accused has not yet been proven, or because the circumstances surrounding the death are unknown.
I think the use of words like homicide in places like news reports is a distinctive North American feature. UK reports, IME, would tend to say something like "a man was killed".
So they wouldn't distinguish between a man being killed by another human, and a man being killed by falling off a building?
The story headlines tend to specify the manner of death and frequently the locale - Man stabbed in Fulham/soldier shot in the Ardoyne/boy dies falling off roof/woman drowns in rough seas. Where it includes a place name it may be a way of categorising as local news, or indeed be one of the few known facts about the death.
I can't speak for Scottish law, but in England and Wales it's murder if one intends to kill someone and they die or if one intends to cause them grievous bodily harm (gbh) and they die. It counts as 'intend' if one is reckless as to whether they die or not. It's manslaughter if they die as a result of a lesser intention, such as to cause actual bodily harm, or if they die as a result of ones culpable act or negligence. A murder charge automatically contains within it the possibility of being convicted of manslaughter if murder is not proved.
There was also the old felony-murder rule: a killing committed in the course of carrying out a felony was a murder.
Then there is the curiosity of the little travelling sewing kit I once had for fixing things like shirt buttons. It was called something that sounded like 'hussif', short for 'housewife'. (I don't know if it ever crossed the ocean).
Then there is the curiosity of the little travelling sewing kit I once had for fixing things like shirt buttons. It was called something that sounded like 'hussif', short for 'housewife'. (I don't know if it ever crossed the ocean).
Crops up in J Austen - Emma - where Miss Bates is rattling on about having lost something and then finding it under her housewife.
I can't speak for Scottish law, but in England and Wales it's murder if one intends to kill someone and they die or if one intends to cause them grievous bodily harm (gbh) and they die. It counts as 'intend' if one is reckless as to whether they die or not. It's manslaughter if they die as a result of a lesser intention, such as to cause actual bodily harm, or if they die as a result of ones culpable act or negligence. A murder charge automatically contains within it the possibility of being convicted of manslaughter if murder is not proved.
There was also the old felony-murder rule: a killing committed in the course of carrying out a felony was a murder.
Housewife is considered date usage I believe. I think homemaker might be more recent usage, though I don't hear either any more.
Maybe, but housewife, pronounced (and sometimes spelt) hussif, is still a traditional name for a small sewing repair kit. Outside that usage housewife (if used) is still pronounced as it is spelt.
There was also the old felony-murder rule: a killing committed in the course of carrying out a felony was a murder.
Still is the rule in my jurisdiction.
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As it is here - the old was meant as showing age rather than former, if that makes sense. IIRC, the rule formed part of the prosecution case against Ronald Ryan, the last person executed in Australia. A prison warder was killed in the course of Ryan's escaping from gaol. He denied firing the fatal shot, but rather that it had been his co-accused. On appeal, the court held that that it did not matter who of them fired it.
Comments
*ahem*
It seems that we have some prickliness here. I am not calling out individuals since there are a few different prickles. Just a reminder...this is Heaven, and we really do appreciate Commandments 3 and 5!
jedijudy-Heaven Host
Ya think?
Thank you, understand now (I think this does not offend the admonition).
I now have a word ear worm.
Depends how you define phonetic. If it's "can predict the pronunciation from the spelling" French does pretty well once you know the rules. Much better than English, any way.
Same is true of Irish, believe it or not.
I can't think of any modern languages that are true the other way - accurately predicting spelling from pronunciation. The most phonetic language I know is Welsh but even then in many positions u and y*** are pronounced exactly the same (and the same as i in some dialects)*. Sounds tend to fall together as languages evolve so once a script has been in use for centuries one to one correspondence is lost.
*The astute reader will notice that this is the same process that produced iostacism in Modern Greek, the development of French U and German Ü, and the shift of Old English y to the same value as i**
**Tolkien had the same development happen in Sindarin as spoken in Gondor.
***Cymry and Cymru are actually the same word but with some hesitation over the orthography of the final letter in Middle Welsh texts.
My response wasn't irritated as such, but yes, mousethief opened the door by adding commentary rather than confining himself to the question!
Anyway... on the question of phonetic languages, I always found German highly phonetic, to the point where I did very well in a reading-out-loud test in a school competition when I wasn't entirely sure what I was reading.
Danish is kind of phonetic, once you're prepared to accept that there is a myriad of vowel sounds and the consonants don't tend to matter much...
So if you wanted a noun to describe a person who broke into houses and stole things, what noun would you use?
The Sheffield street has the stress on the second, which really hurts my ears.
A similar act done at a place of business or during the day would be breaking and entering but not burglary.
Thief.
I don't think Canada has a burglary offence. I found this: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-348.html. It's B&E.
And then did a search on "burglary" which didn't turn anything up within the Criminal Code of Canada
Another one that seems to be changing in Canada re how people talk about it is murder versus homicide. We have first degree murder which means it was planned, and then second degree and manslaughter which are also murder but mean the circumstances are different. I don't know the details very well. But increasingly the media (I notice CBC) is calling all murder "homicide". I didn't hear this term before I don't know when exactly.
As to what the media says, my guess is they default to homicide because the intent of the accused has not yet been proven, or because the circumstances surrounding the death are unknown.
I think the use of words like homicide in places like news reports is a distinctive North American feature. UK reports, IME, would tend to say something like "a man was killed".
Lyda, I'm an avid Dorothy L Sayers fan too, and I've never come across a special way to pronounce it. I would say either Saint George or Snt George, as if it were a church name. But I could be wrong. She uses a few names I've never been quite sure about, like Urquhart.
My classic mispronunciation was when I walked into the bathroom of our new house, aged 13, and said, "Oh look, it has a bi-dett!"
This section may be specifically helpful to murder-manslaughter discussion. :Murder reduced to manslaughter
232 (1) Culpable homicide that otherwise would be murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the person who committed it did so in the heat of passion caused by sudden provocation."
I think you're right. There are a few people called St. George, including the rather splendidly-named St. George St. George, 1st Baron St. George.
Slight tangent - a couple of years ago we were in Denmark (Skagen) on Midsummer's Day and joined in a local celebration, including singing a hymn and the Danish national anthem. The words (in Danish) were on a leaflet so I joined in... despite not speaking the language. The tour guide was amused by this (I don't think any of the other tourists were singing) and commented on it. I said that after years singing in Welsh, attacking Danish held no terrors for me!
(I don't imagine that my pronunciation was even vaguely accurate, but I enjoyed the attempt and no-one complained at my mangling of the Danish language)
Manslaughter is most definitely not murder - it is manslaughter. The result of each is the death of a person, but very different intents. In the old days here (and in England and Wales; I imagine non-French Canada as well) the result of a conviction was very different as well. For murder, the mandatory sentence used be death whereas for manslaughter it was imprisonment for a period up to life.
Finnish. Easy peasy.The only "trick" - and it's not a trick, it requires only practice - is to be able to distinguish between a single vowel/consonant and a doubled one. Like German, (and other languages), in Finnish the doubled letter doesn't change the phoneme, but the length. Like in music, an A# is an A# whether held for one beat or two. Attention must be paid, though, as it changes the meaning, e.g., puna = red, punna = hot toddy.
@la vie en rouge re: Russian, mostly but not entirely, e.g., -ogo- sometimes g=g, sometimes g=v; devoicing of some final consonants, not others.
Japanese is if you're writing everything in hiragana, but given it has so many homophones and doesn't have spaces between the words in a sentence Chinese characters are needed for clarification.
"Reduced to manslaughter" means "not convicted of murder". The point of the section is indeed, as has been said, that "homicide" is a wider category that covers both murder and manslaughter.
Funnily enough I have resolved to learn the words of the Danish national anthem, having been very caught up in watching the football matches in Copenhagen that I wanted tickets for way back in December 2019 (before those tickets were oversubscribed about 12-fold, and the tournament was pushed back a year, and travel from Australia for recreational purposes was banned, and Christian Eriksen had a heart attack).
Being able to read the fan banners is no longer enough.
PS On the question of how to pronounce Danish, this is a popular tip.
If death were caused during some altercation without a previous intention to kill then it would be 'culpable homicide'.At least that is a term which one hears more commonly now in the UK.
It's also murder if you intend to kill one person but someone else dies in stead.
English and Welsh law don't go in for degrees of murder. It's one or the other, murder or manslaughter.
Changing the subject, @NOprophet_NØprofit the fluidity of English pronunciation may well be one of the reasons why the spelling isn't phonetic. If words had to be spelt phonetically, words like 'midwife' and 'midwifery' would have to be spelt in a way that concealed their relationship.
I suppose a person might argue that people should be made to pronounce related words so that they sound more like each other, but that's not the way either people or languages work.
So they wouldn't distinguish between a man being killed by another human, and a man being killed by falling off a building?
There was also the old felony-murder rule: a killing committed in the course of carrying out a felony was a murder.
Because the great vowel shift happened to one and not the other.
And that was because the GVS only affected long vowels, and while wife had a long vowel (like modern English "ee"), Midwifery had a short one.
Yup. That 'e' at the end was kind of a marker of vowel length. After it stopped being pronounced...
Ain't English fun?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_e
Crops up in J Austen - Emma - where Miss Bates is rattling on about having lost something and then finding it under her housewife.
The latter would usually be rendered "a man has died after ..."
In wife, the E got added as a length marker later on in Middle English. The Old English word is Wīf, so that final E was never pronounced.
Stupid bloody language...
[/quote]
As it is here - the old was meant as showing age rather than former, if that makes sense. IIRC, the rule formed part of the prosecution case against Ronald Ryan, the last person executed in Australia. A prison warder was killed in the course of Ryan's escaping from gaol. He denied firing the fatal shot, but rather that it had been his co-accused. On appeal, the court held that that it did not matter who of them fired it.