Biblical Inerrancy

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  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    What is your reasoned theological case that He is?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited August 13
    Was. Not is. Not since the Resurrection. Even though he played along on the road to Emmaus.
  • So you're saying he came out of Hades with a new God? Go easy on the sauce, Marty boy
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    It's very original to say that Christ didn't just come to save humanity but to convert God the Father too.

    It's fine if you want to play devil's advocate, but at least quote some scripture with it.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    School night. He came out of oblivion in stages. And yes, with a new God. The real one. With in the closest possible sense.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited August 13
    God has always been Christ-like. And since it's a school night, here is some Karl Barth for you:

    'God's appearance in salvation history is his very self, not an aspect of His identity behind which His deepest nature remained hidden.'

    'God is in some way human from all eternity - humanly and eternally incised in the person of Christ.'

    'From the foundation of the world God the Father intended fellowship with humanity through the man Jesus Christ.'

    Check out Karl Barth on 'The Strange New World within the Bible,' its online.

    Still can't do links (!)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited August 14
    Martin54 wrote: »
    School night. He came out of oblivion in stages. And yes, with a new God. The real one. With in the closest possible sense.

    Is this what you're saying - after the Ascension, the Second Person having taken His humanity with Him made it a new God?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited August 14
    Gee D wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    School night. He came out of oblivion in stages. And yes, with a new God. The real one. With in the closest possible sense.

    Is this what you're saying - after the Ascension, the Second Person having taken His humanity with Him made it a new God?

    As far as Jesus was concerned. He knew God as He is for the first time in fullest possible perichoresis with Him. The Second Person took the humanity of the person of Jesus TO Him when He took the person to Him, not with Him. The Second Person had not fully become Jesus. The Second Person from eternity had not fully and completely downloaded in to a sperm. He shared His divine nature with a person.

    He's been doing this everywhere forever.

    Jesus and incarnation generally, for infinity, from eternity, makes quantum mechanics look simple.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Rublev wrote: »
    God has always been Christ-like. And since it's a school night, here is some Karl Barth for you:

    'God's appearance in salvation history is his very self, not an aspect of His identity behind which His deepest nature remained hidden.'

    'God is in some way human from all eternity - humanly and eternally incised in the person of Christ.'

    'From the foundation of the world God the Father intended fellowship with humanity through the man Jesus Christ.'

    Check out Karl Barth on 'The Strange New World within the Bible,' its online.

    Still can't do links (!)

    I don't need to Rublev. He's wrong. Or rather infinitely parochial; particular.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Emmeus lies ahead:

    Yes, Christ and the redemptive plan of the incarnation is from eternity. The incarnation event did not change the nature of the immutable God. But it did reveal Him more fully to humanity: Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col 1: 15).

    The story of Ruth and Boaz symbolises how God blessed his people with an OT redemptive Law and a NT redemptive Christ.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Incarnation is eternal. Because creation is. He's being doing it since forever.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    John's Prologue discusses the pre-existent Word that was with God and the incarnate Word that lived among us (John 1: 1-14). There is not really much of a theology of the incarnation in the OT. Matthew picks up the prophecy of Emmanuel and the prophecy of the birth of the Messiah in his birth narrative (Matt 1: 23; Is 7:14; Matt 2: 6; Mic 5: 2). In Luke's birth narrative Mary asks Gabriel directly how the incarnation can happen and he tells her it is through the Holy Spirit and the power of the Most High - the collaboration of the Trinity (Luke 1: 35). I think you can argue that God willed the incarnation of Christ from eternity, but not that Christ was eternally incarnate. He was 'begotten, not made' according to the Nicene Creed.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    I'm not. Incarnation in general is from eternity. It's always been happening somewhere.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    And you can't.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited August 14
    The incarnation of Christ is a cosmic act of divine revelation which is still unfolding in history. As are Creation, Exodus, Sinai, the crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension and Pentecost. And as the Second Coming will be. They are all part of God's redemptive plan for the salvation of humanity and the reconciliation of all things in Christ (Col 1: 19-20; 2 Cor 5: 18-19). And they are all unique eternal events which do not need to be repeated.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Creation? Exodus? Sinai? What are these? When is the Second Coming? Are these physical things? Sinai is an Egyptian desert, anything else?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited August 14
    Rublev wrote: »
    The incarnation of Christ is a cosmic act of divine revelation which is still unfolding in history. As are Creation, Exodus, Sinai, the crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension and Pentecost. And as the Second Coming will be. They are all part of God's redemptive plan for the salvation of humanity and the reconciliation of all things in Christ (Col 1: 19-20; 2 Cor 5: 18-19). And they are all unique eternal events which do not need to be repeated.

    Cosmic? What's it got to do with the entire universe? Let alone beyond. It's Terran. Infinitesimally local in space and time. Even in the transcendent.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited August 14
    The Sinai event is the giving of the Law in Ex 19-20. For Jews it carries the central significance that the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection of Christ has for Christians.

    Orthodox Jews believe that all Jews past, present and future were spiritually present at the Sinai covenant with the Lord.

    There is a similar theology of anamnesis which can be applied to the celebration of Holy Communion in some Christian traditions, which is that whenever believers receive the body and blood of Christ we are spiritually present with the disciples at the Last Supper.

    These represent definitive cosmic and eternal moments which include all believers across time. John Calvin thought that whenever we receive Holy Communion we are spiritually lifted up into the heavenly places to be with Christ.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Uh huh. The stuff we make up eh? What are cosmic and eternal moments?
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Incarnation + Resurrection = Atonement.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Aye, each local instance of that equation. There have been practically infinite in this universe alone. Possibly millions in this galaxy alone. So nothing about what specifically happened on Earth 2023-1989 years ago is from eternity. It's of a general, eternal type. God is immanent Immanuel locally with every sapient species. We are so arrogant it's pathetic.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    God as immanent Emmanuel is very well put. He walked with Adam and Eve in Eden, with the disciples along the road to Emmeus, with Paul on the road to Damascus and with each one of us through the words of Psalm 23.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Who were Adam and Eve? When did He walk with them? Where is Eden? He walked with Lucy Dinkinesh in Olduvai Gorge 3.2+/-0.02 MYA. He's been walking with His creation for eternity.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited August 15
    Yes, indeed: 'They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze' (Gen 3: 8); `Enoch walked with God, then he was no more because God took him' (Gen 5: 24). The Hebrews in the desert walked with the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of cloud by night (Ex 13: 21-22). And Revelation tells us that at the end of time God will dwell with His people and He Himself will be with them (Rev 21: 3-4). Thus completing the OT and NT stories of the immanent Emmanuel 'God is with us' in Isaiah and John.

    Eden was in ancient Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are (Gen 2: 10-14).
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited August 15
    If you are a Biblical literalist Adam and Eve are the first created humans.

    Or you can see them as the symbols of humanity who express the theological problem of sin and separation from God.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Lucy heard Him three million years ago then? Did God reciprocate with Enoch? What year in history did the Hebrews walk around a volcano? So Eden isn't there now?
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited August 15
    As you rightly say, God has been walking with His creation for eternity.

    Enoch was supposed to be so virtuous that he was rewarded by being taken up to heaven living.

    I don't think there are any volcanoes in the Middle East.

    Eden is an interesting question. The Bible narrative gives us the garden of Eden, the garden of Gethsemane, the garden tomb (where the Risen Christ is mistaken for being a gardener, the Second Adam) and finishes with the vision of Revelation with the reappearance of the tree of life (Gen 1 : 22; Rev 22: 2).
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited August 15
    Enoch died just like the rest of us, including Elijah. Figures of speech and retirement notwithstanding. Assuming they were actual people, not figments.

    If there were no volcanoes, what was this diurnal pillar of smoke, nocturnal pillar of fire?

    Yes, the bible starts and ends with magical gardens.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited August 15
    It begins in the garden of Paradise but it ends in the holy city of God. So it looks like Eden has been urbanised in the meantime. And where have all the animals gone? Outside the gates with the dogs? (Rev 22: 15).
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    According to my study bible the pillar of cloud of Ex 13: 22 is a theophany - God appearing in physical form - also referenced in the consecration of the Temple of Solomon (1 Kings 8: 10-12), the Ancient of Days coming on the clouds of heaven of Daniel (quoted by Jesus before the High Priest) and the story of the Transfiguration (cf Ps 97: 2; Job 22: 14; Lev 16: 2; Num 16: 42; Deut 4: 11; Rev 14: 14 re clouds as a sign of God's presence).
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Then He's here in cloudy Leicester. What a great tar-baby this thread is.
  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    tclune wrote: »
    This is a highly polemical misrepresentation of the facts. The reality is that Luther was, except for his act of physically moving the location of the Apocrypha, simply following a well-established western Church view on the matter. ...
    The history of how Protestants came to reject the Apocrypha is shrouded in obscurity. I know that, in my own Methodism, Wesley left them out of his list of the books of scripture in his 25 articles of faith...
    The Anglican Communion accepts the Apocrypha as semi-canonical, "for example of life and instruction of manners" but not "to establish any doctrine." Of course, we're both Catholic and Protestant simultaneously; this is a good example of the Via Media at work.


  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited August 16
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    tclune wrote: »
    This is a highly polemical misrepresentation of the facts. The reality is that Luther was, except for his act of physically moving the location of the Apocrypha, simply following a well-established western Church view on the matter. ...
    The history of how Protestants came to reject the Apocrypha is shrouded in obscurity. I know that, in my own Methodism, Wesley left them out of his list of the books of scripture in his 25 articles of faith...
    The Anglican Communion accepts the Apocrypha as semi-canonical, "for example of life and instruction of manners" but not "to establish any doctrine."
    That is more or less the position of at least some of the Reformed confessions as well.

  • RossweisseRossweisse Shipmate, Hell Host
    Rublev wrote: »
    For the Hebrews to have committed genocide in Canaan they would have had to have brought the whole of Pharaoh's army with them....The Hebrews were Bronze Age pastoralists, not warriors. They didn't have the technology to besiege walled towns. And it is clear from the internal evidence of Joshua that they negotiated and made treaties when they settled. Being pastoralists they probably took the high ground and left the fertile valleys to the Canaanites like the migrant Hakka people did in China. When Joshua asked his lieutenant Caleb what he would like as a reward he replied, 'Give me this hill country' (Joshua 14: 12). ...
    My OT textbook specified that the Hebrews - who were probably an assortment of different minority groups - went to the hill country to avoid the people of the coast and valleys who had the superior technology of the chariot; it was hard for those enemies to get up said hills.

    The future Hebrews adopted the origin story of one of their subgroups, who claimed divine aid in escaping Egypt; it was a great way to knit them all together. However, according to a noted Egyptologist of my acquaintance, if any did leave, it was a small group, and there was certainly no destruction of Pharoah's army involved.

    "The problem," she told me, "is that there simply are no records of the Exodus in the Egyptian documents which refer to that time. That means one of several things. Some people argue, pretty much rightly, that the Egyptians didn't record huge defeats. But on the other hand, because it's not recorded at all and so many other things are, including some defeats, we can conclude that there simply was no recognizable exodus from the Egyptian perspective. This is a view that many Egyptologists take: that indeed what is mentioned in the Bible was a very important emigration, which may in fact have been a gradual emigration, which was then canonized as 'the Exodus.' If it was a gradual emigration, the Egyptians probably wouldn't have taken notice of it. Hence it would not be in Egyptian sources. The earliest reference we have to the Israelites in Egyptian records is after Ramses II, and it refers to the Israelites being back in Israel. So at that point if there was an exodus it had already occurred."
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Was the Bible - the TaNaKh - inerrant to Jesus? Did He believe all this tosh? How could He and His culture not? Especially as He saw Himself in it. When He isn't there.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    What I find remarkable about the story of the Hebrews is the way they preserved their distinctive identity as the Jewish people under successive conquests by the empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.

    According to the Bible they were slaves in Egypt, exiles in Babylon and then allowed to return by the liberating Cyrus of Persia (Ezra and Nehemiah). They were persecuted to extremes by Antiochus Ephiphanies IV for refusing to renounce circumcision and accept Greek culture (leading to the horrible accounts of martyrdom in Maccabees 1 and 2; the Maccabean rebellion and the short lived independent Jewish Hasmonean dynasty and probably the composition of the Books of Esther and Daniel which urge the faithful to stand firm at times of persecution).

    The Romans found the Jewish people to be their most difficult subjects. They gave them protected religion status exempting them from emperor worship and service in the Roman army and allowing them to observe the Sabbath. But there were still constant crises and conflicts which finally culminated in the Jewish revolt, the massacre of the population of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, and the diaspora.

    The Jewish people were extraordinarily resistant to cultural assimilation and there is considerable anxiety in the OT surrounding their settlement in Canaan and the raising of objections to intermarriage and religious syncretism. Initially the Hebrew migrants settled on the high ground as pastoralists leaving the Canaanites to farm the valleys, but over the centuries they intermarried and took up farming. And it appears that they gradually absorbed the Canaanites into Judaism leaving only the use of Canaanite names in the Bible as evidence of their cultural interaction.

    Genesis, Exodus and Joshua are their national myths like the legend of the twin brothers Romulus and Remus was for the Romans. Genesis preserves the memory that the Hebrew people originated as twelve tribes who are explained as being the twelve sons of Jacob. Jan Vansina in his writing on origin myths said that it was normal for tribal groups who united together to back project their new identity with a historic founding story about ancestral brothers.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Aye, how much was pragmatically 'inspired' by God for incarnation?
  • Rublev wrote: »
    Jan Vansina in his writing on origin myths said that it was normal for tribal groups who united together to back project their new identity with a historic founding story about ancestral brothers.

    Very interesting. I've always thought of myths as telling stories/explaining gaps in current knowledge (we seem to hate those gaps), but I hadn't thought of them doing other things, like creating a story to help mesh cultures together.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited August 16
    That's their primary function: 'ra 'ra Team!
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    The story of Noah and the Flood in Genesis may also be a response to the question of 'Why doesn't God just slay the wicked and leave the good people?'

    The Flood narrative shows that this solution is a dreadful outcome for God and for the world. And the prophet Noah suffers terribly and reacts by getting drunk (Gen 9: 21). Jewish theologians suggest Noah feels a terrible survivor's guilt at being the last one left out of his entire generation and about his failure to save his unbelieving neighbours.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    The story of the sacrifice of Abraham is one of the most problematic texts in the OT. But the Genesis stories were written in a context of a dialogue with their contemporary culture. And today we are left reading only one side of the dialogue. The stories of the OT emerge from a context of living and believing in a radically different way from the rest of the ancient world.

    The pagan gods Baal and Chemosh demanded the sacrifice of the firstborn sons. So I think this story is explaining why Hebrews do not offer their firstborn sons to the Lord but sacrifice sheep and goats instead. God is demonstrating to Abraham that he is not like other gods. And perhaps God was waiting for Abraham to argue with Him as he does over the destruction of Sodom: 'Far be it from you! Shall not the Judge of the earth do right?' (Gen 18: 25).

    The Jewish sense of identity is permeated by a sense of being different. The first Passover question asks, 'Why is this night different from other nights?' So these stories explain why it is that the Jewish people live differently from other peoples. And how the Lord is different from other gods.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Aye, the God of the Bible is always intriguingly ahead as He evolves.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    I think He is intriguingly ahead as we evolve. The people of God in Genesis discussed how to offer acceptable sacrifices to the Lord. The contemporary people of God are discussing how to live and worship in an inclusive way. The OT God 'I Am' is fully disclosed to humanity in the person of Christ (Col 1: 15). The NT answers the question of who is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, why is he different from other gods and what is He like. It is why the incarnation was necessary for human salvation.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Why?
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    The incarnation of Jesus Christ helps us to understand that God Emmanuel is always with us by His Spirit, that His love for us is greater than death and that human life should be the way of love and compassion.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    That's more like it.
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