Rotten to the Core

Guliani, of course

Two of his "associates," Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman are arrested shortly after having lunch with Guliani at the New York Trump Tower. Each is a naturalized American Citizen who had shell companies designed to funnel foreign money into Trump's campaign coffers. Money that likely came from a Russian asset. Both had one-way tickets to Germany when they were stopped just before they boarded a plane to Germany.

Guliani was using these two associates to try to dig up dirt on Hunter Biden--or were these two associates were using Guliani to do their bidding? I really can't tell.

But it was these three men have been playing key roles in stirring Trump up about Ukraine.

When Guliani was the US Federal Prosecutor in NYC, he was known for going after the Mafia, but it turns out he is just as rotten as any gangster he ever went after.

Too bad the Feds waited until they were at the airport. I would have loved to have seen video of them being perp marched out of the Trump tower along with Guliani in handcuffs.

I would have put this in the Trump thread, but it is Guliani I wanted to talk about.

Comments

  • When they write the musical they'll be a Ukrainian dance number in the airport.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Too bad the Feds waited until they were at the airport. I would have loved to have seen video of them being perp marched out of the Trump tower along with Guliani in handcuffs.
    Too bad they weren't already on the plane. They probably weren't flying United, but if they had been, we would have had videos from all the passengers as they were dragged off the plane.

    I do wish they'd taken Guliani as well.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Sadly, Rudy's flight to Vienna was booked for the following day.
  • Schroedingers CatSchroedingers Cat Shipmate, Waving not Drowning Host
    So question back - is it the people who are rotten or the system? I suppose I take the view that the (political) system is rotten, so the slime who will fit into this tend to become involved.

    Not to remove the personal responsibility or deny that Guliani appears to be typical slime-mold.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    Funny you should say that, Schroedingers Cat. My favorite epithet for Guliani when he was mayor and trying to cut library funding in the city budget was "The slime-mold that walks like a man."
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    edited October 13
    I only know brief bits of media coverage of G I've seen over the years; but, for a long time, he's seemed like he's not playing with a full deck. (To put it mildly.) And that's going wayyy back before T ran for office.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    I only know brief bits of media coverage of G I've seen over the years; but, for a long time, he's seemed like he's not playing with a full deck. (To put it mildly.) And that's going wayyy back before T ran for office.

    9/11 was responsible for a lot of previously reasonable people acting in ways that seemed utterly out of character. Given how close RG was to that it would hardly be a surprise if he were one of then. Heck, Trump could be too. I think if you've got a vision in your head of American untouchability and exceptionalism, even an unacknowledged one, then the 21st century is deeply, deeply disturbing and traumatic. Trump has always been venal and self-serving, but he didn't used to be so obviously unhinged.
  • Yeah, I did wonder about a 9/11 effect on RG. I don't know enough about him to know if there might be other factors. Whatever is going on, he's unfit for the work he's been doing, IMHO.

    T has all sorts of things going on. 9/11 might be in the mix.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    On the contrary, RG is eminently fit for the work he's most recently been doing. I watched a clip of him being interviewed last Sunday by George Stephanopoulos, and I couldn't have reported a single stance, position, or idea he uttered 30 seconds after he uttered it (and I'm a journalist-in-recovery). It was rapid-fire word-salad (a technique favored by others--KellyAnne, etc.--who speak on behalf of 1600 Penn. Ave's Current Occupant.

    One of 45's managment principles (Yes, he has some) is to keep everyone else constantly backfooted and confused. He maintains what he thinks of of as his "hold" on his command of things by being the only person in the room (aside from a tiny cadre of close fixers lawyers and advisers) who has the slightest notion of what's going on, and his own notion of this consists solely of the present moment, as neither past nor future exist for him. I suspect this strategy plays a vital role in his many business failures; it's certainly damaging what we're forced to refer to as his "presidency."

    RG, whose skill at rapid-fire word salad is matched only by Kelly-Anne & perhaps a few others, is superbly qualified for the role of assisting 45 in keeping everybody else baffled.
  • LeRocLeRoc Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Both had one-way tickets to Germany when they were stopped just before they boarded a plane to Germany.
    I thought they were going to Austria?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    They were - Vienna.
  • It was going to be the second stop. Frankfurt was the first.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    It was going to be the second stop. Frankfurt was the first.

    And that was my point, I heard they were boarding a plane to Frankfurt.
  • So question back - is it the people who are rotten or the system? I suppose I take the view that the (political) system is rotten, so the slime who will fit into this tend to become involved.

    Not to remove the personal responsibility or deny that Guliani appears to be typical slime-mold.

    It might be both. Certainly, there seems to be a fair bit of corruption in the USA, at all levels of Government and in the private sector. What that requires systemically is a genuine strengthening of anti-corruption bodies including (maybe especially) proper funding and the centralising and bureaucratising of electoral governance. What it also requires is lots more very well dressed people in prison.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    For those who are interested, this is my not-so-brief summary of the facts as they were known last Friday over at the Purgatory Trump thread.
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Rudy Giuliani has been using two gentlemen of Ukrainian background (though they're old enough that when they were born it was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) who currently reside in Florida as go-betweens with the Ukrainian government. Allegedly this involved things like trying to discover or manufacture political dirt on Joe Biden, removing American diplomats who won't play ball with this agenda, and other assorted Trumpian shenanigans.

    At any rate Giuliani had lunch with these two gentlemen (Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman) at Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC yesterday, because where else would they go to eat? Anyway, a couple hours later Parnas and Fruman were arrested at Dulles International Airport after having each bought a one-way ticket to Vienna. (Not a euphemism.) According to the previously sealed indictment [PDF] the two men, along with two others also charged, were involved in funneling foreign money into various Republican campaigns and PACs, including Donald Trump's, in violation of campaign finance laws. The money allegedly originated with someone only identified as "Foreign National-1" who is described in the indictment as "a foreign national Russian citizen and businessman who, at all relevant times, was not a citizen or lawful permanent resident of the United States".

    According to various news accounts prosecutors weren't ready to unseal the indictment just yet but had to move their schedule up when they discovered that two of their four suspects were at the airport with one-way tickets out of the country. As an aside, and IANAL, I'm pretty sure that attorney-client privilege doesn't cover advising clients to evade the law in illegal ways, such as fleeing the country. Interestingly enough Giuliani was supposed to follow Fruman and Parnas to Vienna the next day according to an account by Elaina Plott.

    So who were the alleged recipients of this illegal largesse?

    These last two (Laxalt and Duncan) seem to be in pursuit of cornering the newly legal marijuana market in Nevada and probably not related to Trump, but you never know!

    In an added wrinkle apparently Attorney General Bill Barr has known about the investigation into Parnas and Fruman since February, making the question of how they knew to flee that much more interesting.

    Maybe this is just an example where some "broken windows policing" is needed. American authorities have been turning a blind eye to wealthy white criminality for so long that wealthy whites have developed an inherently criminal subculture. :wink:
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited October 15
    Love the idea of taking a Broken Windows approach to white collar crime. Our most consistently corrupt state is NSW, but in part that's because of their Independent Crime and Corruption Commission which surfaces alot of shit. The stuff that hits the headlines is usually political and from both sides. I don't think any minor parties have been involved. It's the ALP's turn right now, with stories of shopping bags and wine boxes of cash. A couple of years ago it was the Liberals.

    In my former life I had a client who got caught up in an ICAC investigation, and I referred them up to some NSW lawyers. I don't know the details except that ICAC decided not to proceed and I got a Sandringham Yacht Club cap and a bottle of whiskey for my trouble (my bet is they got billed HARD in the Premier State). Its always possible my client cut a corner that shouldn't have been cut, or just dealt with someone very dodgy. That's capitalism, and that's why you need to keep an eye on them.

    I should say that NSW is not the only State that has had major corruption scandals. But they are the ones who have really cracked down on it. I have just now seen vision on the telly of a bloke bringing an esky full of cash to a teller in the High Rollers room at Crown Casino in Melbourne.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    It might be both. Certainly, there seems to be a fair bit of corruption in the USA, at all levels of Government and in the private sector.

    I think the difference is that the US is more openly transactional than other (Western) economies and not necessarily than there is less corruption going on elsewhere (though sometimes they are also superlative in terms of scale).
  • what do you mean by transactional Chris?
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    what do you mean by transactional Chris?

    A general greater openness and acceptance about the fact that lobbyists pay (and later employ) public servants on the understanding that they will in turn push plenty of pork in the direction of their clients.

    The same thing happens elsewhere, except the sums involved are usually much smaller and the amount of pearl clutching correspondingly greater.
  • That was great Chris - thanks for the link. Subscribe to Private Eye, folks, and fund investigative journalism - your country (UK) needs you.
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