Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • @Gramps49, but can he pardon himself before he is convicted of a crime?

    Who decides whether it's allowed - his Supremes? If they agreed (seems unlikely) it would discredit them for the future.

    And pardoning yourself (or getting Pence to do it) is surely an admission of guilt - which screws any future claims that he did nothing wrong, never commited any crime or ever in his life made a mistake. How could he spin it for his faithful followers?
  • He could tell them he's protecting himself from those evil Democrats, 'cause they trump up ;) charges. And that faithless*/fake Republicans might join them in that.

    So it's him and his faithful followers against an evil plot in an evil world.

    *In the sense of "faithless electors", not in a religious sense.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    I think you have to have grounds (basically, president incapable of presidenting for med reasons) to make such a temporary transfer. You can't play football with the Oval Office. And a permanent transfer (resignation) would raise the question of whether Pence would in fact do as asked--at the cost of his own political future. I doubt it.
  • john holdingjohn holding Ecclesiantics Host, Mystery Worshipper Host
    As I understand it, if T resigns then Pence becomes President. If Pence then resigns I'm not sure who follows -- the Secretary of State (and down the cabinet line) or the House Speaker? The one person who could not take over would be T, who would not be in either of whichever of those lines is the right one. Even Pence is not likely to appoint T as SofS so he could resume the White House
  • It would be the Speaker of the House. And that's not a position in the president's gift. The ambitions I referred to Pence (not) sacrificing have to do with the election of 2024--and even he must know that cooperating in such a blatant abuse of the pardon power would mean his ass is grass, even with Republicans. They want to nominate someone who might win, not be ridden out of town on a rail.
  • The one word that may prevent Trump from pardoning himself is in the clause
    and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
    US Constitution Article II, Section 2, Clause one.

    "to grant" something implies one person is giving something to another person.

    To the idea that Trump may resign and allow Pence to make the pardon that might be possible, though Pence cannot then cede the office back to Trump. After all, he resigned.


    There is one issue Trump may address is birth-right citizenship. He may try to issue an executive order saying any child born in the US whose parents are not citizens at the time of birth cannot be a citizen of the United States. Kamala Harris was born in the United States to parents who were citizens of India. Therefore, she could not be a vice president under that executive order.

    Remember Trump saying Obama was not a natural-born American citizen because his father was from Kenya? If he is trying to nullify Obama's citizenship, then my granddaughter's citizenship would be nullified as well because her father was a Filipino citizen at the time, even though she was born in Washington State.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.
    The Supreme Court doesn’t have the ability to “step in.” It only has the ability to review cases that come up to it from lower courts, so the issue of whether the president can pardon himself would have to be presented in federal district court, which only seems likely if a local United States Attorney tries to charge Trump with federal crimes. And that’s not likely unless Biden and his attorney general support it.

  • Abrogating birthright citizenship by executive order: the constitution can be revoked by executive order? News to me.

    I wouldn’t put it past the lame duck to try it, but does anyone see this holding up in court?
  • No. That's a legislative power, and in fact it might even require a constitutional amendment, IIRC.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.
    The Supreme Court doesn’t have the ability to “step in.” It only has the ability to review cases that come up to it from lower courts, so the issue of whether the president can pardon himself would have to be presented in federal district court, which only seems likely if a local United States Attorney tries to charge Trump with federal crimes. And that’s not likely unless Biden and his attorney general support it.

    Though I rather think Biden would have to, because to let such an egregious abuse of power go unchecked would be to become complicit init--and to set a horrible precedent,
  • Abrogating birthright citizenship by executive order: the constitution can be revoked by executive order? News to me.

    I wouldn’t put it past the lame duck to try it, but does anyone see this holding up in court?

    Would Melania have to move back to Slovenia? Would Barron go with her?
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    How can you give the presidency to someone? I don't understand how, constitutionally, that would work. Perhaps Pence could appoint 45 as his veep, then resign, making 45 47.
  • Of course Pence still owes 45 payback for when 45 wouldn't let him meet with the Pope. If 45 resigns Pence might not pardon him at all.
  • I understand that the use of a lawful power for an unlawful reason constitutes a criminal offence in itself.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    mousethief wrote: »
    Of course Pence still owes 45 payback for when 45 wouldn't let him meet with the Pope. If 45 resigns Pence might not pardon him at all.

    As far as I can tell via google, Pence had no trouble meeting with the Pope. The guy who got shafted on that front was Sean Spicer, a devout Catholic who had apparently been looking forward to the meet-up.
  • stetson wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Of course Pence still owes 45 payback for when 45 wouldn't let him meet with the Pope. If 45 resigns Pence might not pardon him at all.

    As far as I can tell via google, Pence had no trouble meeting with the Pope. The guy who got shafted on that front was Sean Spicer, a devout Catholic who had apparently been looking forward to the meet-up.

    Ooops my misremembery.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    How can you give the presidency to someone? I don't understand how, constitutionally, that would work. Perhaps Pence could appoint 45 as his veep, then resign, making 45 47.

    Impossible. Pence would have no way of making 45 47. Once Pence would become president, he can name a vice president-designate that would have to be approved by the House of Representatives. And who controls the House of Representatives? Given the animosity between Pelosi and Trump, that's not going to happen.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.
    The Supreme Court doesn’t have the ability to “step in.” It only has the ability to review cases that come up to it from lower courts, so the issue of whether the president can pardon himself would have to be presented in federal district court, which only seems likely if a local United States Attorney tries to charge Trump with federal crimes. And that’s not likely unless Biden and his attorney general support it.

    Though I rather think Biden would have to, because to let such an egregious abuse of power go unchecked would be to become complicit init--and to set a horrible precedent,
    Maybe, maybe not. Biden has already been pretty noncommittal about possible charges against Trump. His approach will, I think, very much depend on what he sees as being in the country’s best interest. Well, that and what state charges might already be going on. Biden could well think prosecution isn’t in the country’s interest.

  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    How can you give the presidency to someone? I don't understand how, constitutionally, that would work. Perhaps Pence could appoint 45 as his veep, then resign, making 45 47.

    Impossible. Pence would have no way of making 45 47. Once Pence would become president, he can name a vice president-designate that would have to be approved by the House of Representatives. And who controls the House of Representatives? Given the animosity between Pelosi and Trump, that's not going to happen.

    What happens if Trump recuses himself temporarily by letter under the 25th Amendment?
  • I think that was the scenario the radio guest I mentioned was imagining.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    How can you give the presidency to someone? I don't understand how, constitutionally, that would work. Perhaps Pence could appoint 45 as his veep, then resign, making 45 47.

    Impossible. Pence would have no way of making 45 47. Once Pence would become president, he can name a vice president-designate that would have to be approved by the House of Representatives. And who controls the House of Representatives? Given the animosity between Pelosi and Trump, that's not going to happen.

    What happens if Trump recuses himself temporarily by letter under the 25th Amendment?

    He would have to send a letter to both the president pro tem of the Senate and the Speaker of the House stating he is ready to take over. Methinks the Speaker would conveniently lose the letter before opening it.
  • Again, he’d have to have grounds , and sufficient grounds for de-presidenting oneself that are quickly and easily reversible aren’t so easy to come by. I am not at all sure that the vp acting in his emergency capacity even has the power to issue pardons, those not commonly being an emergency situation.
  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    edited November 2020
    Gramps49 wrote: »

    He would have to send a letter to both the president pro tem of the Senate and the Speaker of the House stating he is ready to take over. Methinks the Speaker would conveniently lose the letter before opening it.

    Or, perhaps, just tear it up?
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    He would have to send a letter to both the president pro tem of the Senate and the Speaker of the House stating he is ready to take over. Methinks the Speaker would conveniently lose the letter before opening it.
    Or, perhaps, just
    tear it up
    ?
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    He would have to send a letter to both the president pro tem of the Senate and the Speaker of the House stating he is ready to take over. Methinks the Speaker would conveniently lose the letter before opening it.
    Or, perhaps, just
    tear it up
    ?

    Aye, she has been known to do that. :wink:
  • Pence doing a TV show with Sarah Palin might be fun. Better than Mr Clean being in power.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Has there ever been a more visibly reluctant First Lady?

    Jane Pierce comes to mind.

    What a terrible story. I really feel for Mrs Pierce. All these years later I can feel her heart breaking.
    mousethief wrote: »
    The Slavic O's have some amazing music, probably best suited to the "western" ear of all the O churches.

    Perhaps, but I love all that I have heard. I am most familiar with the sung liturgy of the Armenian Orthodox, as I did a project on one Melbourne community for a class on non-Chalcedonian Orthodoxy many moons ago.
  • Again, he’d have to have grounds , and sufficient grounds for de-presidenting oneself that are quickly and easily reversible aren’t so easy to come by.

    I disagree. The three times a president has voluntarily indicated a temporary disability to discharge the duties of their office under the Twenty-Fifth Amendment involved colonoscopies, once for Reagan and twice for George W. Bush. George H.W. Bush and Dick Cheney were Acting Presidents for a few hours in each case. So there is precedent.
    I am not at all sure that the vp acting in his emergency capacity even has the power to issue pardons, those not commonly being an emergency situation.

    Section 3 of the Twenty-Fifth Amendment states:
    Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

    There's nothing in the text that specifies the Vice President/Acting President only has access to some presidential powers but not others. It seems like it was written to indicate that all presidential powers can be accessed by the Acting President.
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Has there ever been a more visibly reluctant First Lady?

    Jane Pierce comes to mind.
    What a terrible story. I really feel for Mrs Pierce. All these years later I can feel her heart breaking.

    It's even worse than the Wiki entry implies. The eleven year old Benjamin Pierce wasn't just "killed in a train accident", his parents were both on that train with him. There's a rather horrific difference between "son killed" and "son killed right in front of you".
  • {music tangent}

    Simon Toad--

    You might check out the group Kitka. Eastern European, IIRC, with close, unusual (to Western ears) harmony.
  • It seemed odd that Trump gave his Thanksgiving address from a small table than behind the resolute desk.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    It seemed odd that Trump gave his Thanksgiving address from a small table than behind the resolute desk.

    For those who want a picture, there is this Twitter thread. So there's a tiny desk, an obvious boom mic, an unadorned fir tree, and obvious markings on the carpet showing where other pieces of furniture had been sitting recently. Very odd.
  • Has he already sold off the historic Oval Office furniture?
  • Not to start a rumor, but maybe he took an axe to it?

    IIRC, the desk has a sibling somewhere in...Buckingham Palace?
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    It seemed odd that Trump gave his Thanksgiving address from a small table than behind the resolute desk.

    For those who want a picture, there is this Twitter thread. So there's a tiny desk, an obvious boom mic, an unadorned fir tree, and obvious markings on the carpet showing where other pieces of furniture had been sitting recently. Very odd.

    Is it to make him look big and dominant in the shot that is aired?
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    Is it to make him look big and dominant in the shot that is aired?

    I refuse to speculate about the æsthetic motivations of someone who thought this picture made him look good.
  • Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Is it to make him look big and dominant in the shot that is aired?

    I refuse to speculate about the æsthetic motivations of someone who thought this picture made him look good.
    Looks like he is proudly shitting out a goose
  • I want to do some reading around the history of the two major political parties up to and including the realignment in or about 1968, which resulted in the GOP adopting the heinous Southern Strategy. I'm going to get my brother to buy me a book on the topic for Christmas, obviously not comprehensive.

    I would be grateful if people could give me some recommendations. My major areas of interest within the topic are: President Eisenhower; 1968 and the Southern Strategy; the role of organised labour in politics.
  • I wonder if T is in some *copy* of his office? Something for emergencies, photos, TV shows and films?
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Is it to make him look big and dominant in the shot that is aired?

    I refuse to speculate about the æsthetic motivations of someone who thought this picture made him look good.
    Looks like he is proudly shitting out a goose

    My first thought was that he was albino turkey.
  • Simon Toad wrote: »
    I want to do some reading around the history of the two major political parties up to and including the realignment in or about 1968, which resulted in the GOP adopting the heinous Southern Strategy. I'm going to get my brother to buy me a book on the topic for Christmas, obviously not comprehensive.

    I would be grateful if people could give me some recommendations. My major areas of interest within the topic are: President Eisenhower; 1968 and the Southern Strategy; the role of organised labour in politics.

    I highly recommend the book Nixonland for a thorough and well-researched overview of US politics and society in that era. The basic narrative starts with the election of LBJ in 1964, and ends with the re-election of Nixon in 1972, but there is also considerable biographical background about Nixon.

    Caveat, the writer is a non-academic historian, not a political scientist, so it might not get as in-depth into the technical analysis of how the Southern Strategy was carried out, beyond the common analysis of the GOP using cultural and racial issues to cajole whites into voting against their economic interests.

    (I actually put off buying the book for a while, because I thought it would just be a biography of Nixon, who is of considerable but not intense interest to me. But it covers WAY more than just Nixon, though he and his campaigns are sorta the prism through which everything is ultimately viewed.)

  • The assassination of top Iranian nuclear scientist, Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, has got chatter going. Was it done by Israel? Did Trump give the OK, and is it the precursor to more attacks on Iran. I suppose the message to Biden is, appeasement doesn't work. And Trump goes out with a bang.
  • I think the 'message' is I'm going to stir things up while I still can. Deal with it.
  • The assassination of top Iranian nuclear scientist, Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, has got chatter going. Was it done by Israel? Did Trump give the OK, and is it the precursor to more attacks on Iran.

    A few days prior to the Fakhrizadeh assassination Mike Pompeo met with Bibi Netanyahu and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (a.k.a. "Prince Bonesaw") in Saudi Arabia. I wouldn't say it was a secret meeting because while it was going on Houthis attacked a Saudi Aramco facility. (Netanyahu might want to take into consideration that Iranian intelligence seems to be very good at tracking his movements.) At any rate, the proximity in time between that meeting and the Fakhrizadeh assassination seems to be a bit much to ascribe to coincidence.
    I suppose the message to Biden is, appeasement doesn't work. And Trump goes out with a bang.

    More like establishing enough "facts on the ground" before leaving office that any kind of negotiation can't work. At this point the Trump administration* seems devoted to crippling the Biden administration from pursuing its stated priorities. Kind of a preemptive version of the way they tried to undo everything the Obama administration accomplished.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I want to do some reading around the history of the two major political parties up to and including the realignment in or about 1968, which resulted in the GOP adopting the heinous Southern Strategy. I'm going to get my brother to buy me a book on the topic for Christmas, obviously not comprehensive.

    I would be grateful if people could give me some recommendations. My major areas of interest within the topic are: President Eisenhower; 1968 and the Southern Strategy; the role of organised labour in politics.
    I highly recommend the book Nixonland for a thorough and well-researched overview of US politics and society in that era. The basic narrative starts with the election of LBJ in 1964, and ends with the re-election of Nixon in 1972, but there is also considerable biographical background about Nixon.

    It should be noted that Nixonland is one installment in a series by Rick Perlstein. Depending on how much reading you want to do and which specific era of mid- to late-20th century American politics (with special attention paid to the conservative movement) you're interested in there are several options.

    Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus - Covers the period from 1959 to 1965. Published in 2001.

    Nixonland: The Rise of a President and the Fracturing of America - Covers the period from 1965 to 1972. Published in 2008.

    The Invisible Bridge: The Fall of Nixon and the Rise of Reagan - Covers the period from 1972 to 1976. Published in 2012.

    Reaganland: America's Right Turn - Covers the period from 1976 to 1980. Published in 2020.

    All links above are to the author's website, so adjust for self-promotion.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Going back to this question, the last time this question was addressed was in a Department of Justice memo [PDF] dated August 5, 1974. For some reason that was a question at the time. The memo states:
    Under the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case, the President cannot pardon himself.

    If under the Twenty-Fifth Amendment the President declared that he was temporarily unable to perform the duties of the office, the Vice President would become Acting President and as such could pardon the President. Thereafter the President could either resign or resume the duties of his office.

    Since neither of these tactics were ever tried the constitutionality of this analysis has never been tested in court.
  • I do like to thank the Trump campaign for finding 142 more votes for Biden in Wisconsin. Cost them $3 mil to do that. https://www.npr.org/2020/11/28/939645865/biden-gains-votes-in-recount-of-milwaukee-county-requested-by-trump
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I do like to thank the Trump campaign for finding 142 more votes for Biden in Wisconsin. Cost them $3 mil to do that.

    /sad trombone

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    The purpose of the partial recount in Wisconsin was to try and find evidence to support a claim that some classes of mailed in ballots or cured ballots should be excluded. I don’t think there was any real expectation of overturning the vote count.

  • stetson wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I do like to thank the Trump campaign for finding 142 more votes for Biden in Wisconsin. Cost them $3 mil to do that.

    /sad trombone

    I was thinking more March of The Clowns.
This discussion has been closed.