Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread.

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  • What a waste of $3million...why, it could have been spent on feeding the poor!
  • @Croed
    stetson wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I do like to thank the Trump campaign for finding 142 more votes for Biden in Wisconsin. Cost them $3 mil to do that.

    /sad trombone

    I was thinking more March of The Clowns.

    Do you mean "Entry Of The Gladiators"?

    March Of The Clowns is apparently a song as well, but Gladiators is more standard for this type of situation. (And has enjoyed a bit of a post-election revival among Democrats on You Tube, in videos likely meant to answer the Trumpie's 2016 Hall Of The Mountain King meme.)
  • Sorry, the truncated naming of Croeses above was originally meant as thanks for mentioning the other Perlstein books.

    Thank you.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I do like to thank the Trump campaign for finding 142 more votes for Biden in Wisconsin. Cost them $3 mil to do that.
    I do hope the Wisconsin electoral board made sure the Trump campaign paid in front.

  • Thankyou very much Croesus and Stetson for those recommendations.
  • And so the farce continues... pre-emptive pardons are being considered for the Trump kids, Jared, and Rudy. The Pence-as-pro-tem scenario is becoming increasingly credible.
  • The White House must have become very polite all of a sudden: lots of people saying "Pardon me"!
  • As I understand it, if T resigns then Pence becomes President. If Pence then resigns I'm not sure who follows -- the Secretary of State (and down the cabinet line) or the House Speaker? The one person who could not take over would be T, who would not be in either of whichever of those lines is the right one. Even Pence is not likely to appoint T as SofS so he could resume the White House

    If T resigns, Pence would take over, and would appoint a VP, who would need to be confirmed by both Houses. And then that person would be next in line. Except that the odds of the House confirming any VP picked under these nefarious circumstances is zero, which leaves Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House next in line.

    But you don't need Pence to also resign for such shenanigans. T just quits on Jan 10, Pence takes office and issues pardons, and then Pence's brief term expires on Jan 20.
  • As I understand it, if T resigns then Pence becomes President. If Pence then resigns I'm not sure who follows -- the Secretary of State (and down the cabinet line) or the House Speaker? The one person who could not take over would be T, who would not be in either of whichever of those lines is the right one. Even Pence is not likely to appoint T as SofS so he could resume the White House

    If T resigns, Pence would take over, and would appoint a VP, who would need to be confirmed by both Houses. And then that person would be next in line. Except that the odds of the House confirming any VP picked under these nefarious circumstances is zero, which leaves Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House next in line.

    But you don't need Pence to also resign for such shenanigans. T just quits on Jan 10, Pence takes office and issues pardons, and then Pence's brief term expires on Jan 20.

    If would be entirely in character for Trump - it involves the Presidential version of "you can't fire me, I quit" flounce.
  • That’s assuming Pence is willing to sacrifice his obvious political ambitions to oblige Trump... I really don’t like him, but I suspect that once safely in power (and Trump out of it!) he’d refuse to carry out his side of the deal, and blandly deny any such nefariousness had been under contemplation.
  • But trump is a liar, cheat and weasel (sorry weasels). Pence has propped him up and is surely tarnished be enabling his behaviour. Has he really got any chance at getting elected himself? Would he stand if trump is trying again?
  • And so the farce continues... pre-emptive pardons are being considered for the Trump kids, Jared, and Rudy. The Pence-as-pro-tem scenario is becoming increasingly credible.
    But to be pardoned, one would have to officially acknowledge that Jared & Rudy have done something illegal that needs to be pardoned. I wonder if the Trumpies will do that. Can you envisaged Trump admitting that he did something wrong that needs pardoning in order to get a pardon from a pro tem Pence? I can't.

  • That’s assuming Pence is willing to sacrifice his obvious political ambitions to oblige Trump... I really don’t like him, but I suspect that once safely in power (and Trump out of it!) he’d refuse to carry out his side of the deal, and blandly deny any such nefariousness had been under contemplation.

    I'm not sure Pence is aware of this, but he really doesn't have a political future. His supposed utility to Donald Trump was to bring in the white evangelical vote and if the last four years have demonstrated anything it's that white evangelicals really like Trump because of his brash, openly racist assholery rather than in spite of it. I don't see the Trump cult shifting to support some milquetoast Mother-wived prig. Whether Pence is aware of this is another question, of course.
    Hedgehog wrote: »
    [But to be pardoned, one would have to officially acknowledge that Jared & Rudy have done something illegal that needs to be pardoned.

    If you look over Nixon's pardon you'll see nothing beyond a vague reference to "certain acts or omissions occurring before his resignation". In other words you don't necessarily need to get too detailed on what's being pardoned.
  • Hmmm, Pence as Admiral Doenitz. It's not a great role; I doubt it would appeal to him.
  • As far as we can tell, Pence accepted the running mate position in 2016 when everyone else was shying away out of pure political self interest—and has continued to hang about like a taxidermied owl doing little but prop up the president's bullshit policies mostly by presence (yeah, parroting too, but he mostly blends into the woodwork in comparison with the rest of the weirdoes). Those are the actions of a man who thinks he can use T as a stepping stone to higher office, and who is doing his best to avoid becoming associated publicly with the worst of the backsplatter, in the hopes (vain, please God) of pleasing everybody in 2024--the Trump loyalists merely by his association, and the saner people by the fact that he doesn't smell QUITE so much as the rest of the insane crew. (Me, I don't think it's going to work. I think he signed his own political death warrant by associating with T at all.)

    Nevertheless, he thinks he's got a hope. So after all these years of lying low (well, lower than the rest of the crew), why would he voluntarily fuck it up by doing T a favor with a pardon? When (as newly sworn-in ten-day president) he could be burnishing his own image, and trying to appeal to 2024 voters?

    After all, T can do very little to him at that point. When T bitches on Twitter that Pence refused to go through with the deal, Pence can do the whole "Oh dear, I'm afraid he's not quite well. That's why he resigned, in fact. A pardon was never in contemplation."
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I don't see the Trump cult shifting to support some milquetoast Mother-wived prig.
    Do we know what his wife calls him? I suspect that the number of men who are married with children who use the term for their wives that their children use is probably greater than none.
  • Indeed, there are whole cultures where this is the norm. Mr Lamb once offered to do this to me, and I noped out of that so fast it made his head spin.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals? :wink:
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals? :wink:

    Trump's statements there are probably pretty close to what a lot of non-religious people believe about forgiveness. And if you include Christmas And Easter Christians in there, you're probably well into the double digits for the American population.

    Still, not the sort of thing you'd expect to be hearing from a man who claims to hold the Bible in higher regard than any other book. And can you imagine the reaction from the Republicans if a DEMOCRAT said he doesn't think he needs to ask God's forgiveness for his wrongdoings?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    . . . some milquetoast Mother-wived prig . . .

    Just popping in to nominate this description by Crœsos as Accurate Characterization of the Year.
  • I refer to my wife as Mummy when talking to the dogs...
  • When and where I grew up, parents referring to each other as some form of "Mother" and "Father" was fairly common.

    I have no idea what's behind Pence's use of the term. But I think it's much more likely to be what I and others mentioned, and less likely than a distressing kink that he announces all the time. (Plus being Republican and an Evangelical Christian--if he did have that issue, wouldn't he try to hide it? Especially in the context of his public life and work?)
  • My father would sometimes refer to my mother as "Mother", especially when speaking in the presence of the kids. I think he might have picked this up from his own father.

    John Lennon also famously referred to Yoko Ono as "Mother". But of course he was notorious for having "mommy issues". I don't know if he called his first wife Cynthia by the same name.
  • I was thinking of starting a new thread called "Pardon me?" I wasn't sure whether a presidential pardon would cover an investigation into inauguration rorts by the office of Washington DC's AG...

    Schadenfreude, Oh Shadenfreude (to the tune of Galveston by Glenn Campbell)
  • LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".
  • Oh-oh...

    "Newly-pardoned Mike Flynn calls for Trump to suspend the Constitution and declare martial law then order military to hold a re-run election - and claims the alternative is 'CIVIL WAR'" (Daily Mail UK).

    Yes, I know the DM is a tabloid. I came across a link while on another site. Actually, this looks like a responsible, well-written article. And there are some other American news links, just above the story, in a similar style. But feel free to look for a corroborating news site.

    Flynn is associated with a "We The People" convention, which is reportedly linked to the Tea Party group. There's a pic of a poster from WTP that details what they want. To read it, you need to view the image separately and enlarge it a lot. It's still a little difficult to read. But it says their website is We The People Convention dot org. Probably a better copy there.

    Question: a pardon only covers what the recipient has already done, right? So if Flynn crosses a legal line *now* in the above, the pardon won't apply, right?

    Thx.
  • Pardons can be magnificently vague (think Ford/Nixon). A pre-emptive pardon (effectively granting immunity) need not explicitly acknowledge specific guilt. Although it is all rather novel in the American context.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    But wouldn't a preemptive pardon cover any crimes the recipient may have committed in the past for which he has not yet been charged? Not new crimes that he may commit in the future.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    But wouldn't a preemptive pardon cover any crimes the recipient may have committed in the past for which he has not yet been charged? Not new crimes that he may commit in the future.

    There are very few limits on what's covered in a presidential pardon, but one of those limits is that it can't preemptively cover acts that haven't happened yet. Other limits are that it doesn't cover criminal charges by state governments or suits in civil court.
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    Would a pardon be valid if it turned out the recipient had paid (bribed is such an ugly word) the President to give it to them?
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    For that matter if a President didn't care about the spirit of the law but only what the letter would let him get away with (suspend your disbelief) would it be actually illegal to accept a bribe to pardon someone? It's not one of the President's duties.
  • What was the original purpose of Presidential Pardons? I assume it's modelled on the days of European Absolute Monarchs (and despots in many other nations) who decided most things and when democracy was much less of a thing. But even if so, what was the purpose in a new democratic nation? Was the legal system so flaky and susceptible to unfairness and corruption that it needed oversight by someone who was beyond question because a corrupt president was inconceivable as a majority had trusted him enough to vote for him?
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    Would a pardon be valid if it turned out the recipient had paid (bribed is such an ugly word) the President to give it to them?

    During his confirmation hearing Attorney General Bill Barr was asked whether a president can offer a pardon in exchange for a witness' silence and Barr claimed that would be a crime. I'm guessing bribery would fall under the same general understanding of obstruction of justice.
    Dafyd wrote: »
    For that matter if a President didn't care about the spirit of the law but only what the letter would let him get away with (suspend your disbelief) would it be actually illegal to accept a bribe to pardon someone? It's not one of the President's duties.

    Bribery is one of the things explicitly spelled out as a presidential no-no in the Constitution's impeachment clause (Art. II, § 4).
    What was the original purpose of Presidential Pardons? I assume it's modelled on the days of European Absolute Monarchs (and despots in many other nations) who decided most things and when democracy was much less of a thing. But even if so, what was the purpose in a new democratic nation? Was the legal system so flaky and susceptible to unfairness and corruption that it needed oversight by someone who was beyond question because a corrupt president was inconceivable as a majority had trusted him enough to vote for him?

    The general reasoning was presented by Alexander Hamilton in Federalist #74, with a little bit of supplemental explanation in Federalist #69 (also by Hamilton). Some of it is probably a holdover from monarchy, but it fits very well within the American concept of "checks and balances" with the pardon as an executive "check" on the judiciary.

    One of uses of pardons that the Framers imagined was the use of pardons to provide a kind of amnesty in the wake of a revolt or rebellion, a possible inducement for rebels to surrender. George Washington used the pardon in exactly this way after the Whiskey Rebellion.
  • HugalHugal Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    Hugal wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    The song you're thinking of is The Red Flag. I believe it's more associated with the British Labour Party than with Communists, though the latter might sing it as well. If they do, I would think it's only in the UK.

    The Internationale is the song more typically regarded as the Communist anthem, but I know for a fact that it's used by other left-wing groups as well. As the title would suggest, it is sung around the world.

  • "O Tannenbaum" is also the melody of the Boy Scout Hymn, at least in the US.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    "O Tannenbaum" is also the melody of the Boy Scout Hymn, at least in the US.
    I know it as the Scout’s Vesper song/hymn. It’s also “O Maryland, My Maryland.”

    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Schadenfreude, Oh Shadenfreude (to the tune of Galveston by Glenn Campbell)
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".
    Oh, no! Just go with “Schadenfreude” from Avenue Q. :wink:

  • I get the impression 45 is more interested in proving voting fraud than running the country,
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I get the impression 45 is more interested in proving voting fraud than running the country,
    He is more interested in alleging voting fraud than running the country. He has no interest in proving it. That takes too much work. And those pesky facts.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited December 2020
    He never WAS interested in running the country. Do keep up :wink:
  • What LC said.
  • What GK said.
  • That certainly seems to be the case, as according to news reports on this side of the Pond, Trump is nowhere to be seen, and is keeping very quiet about the awful increase in the daily Covid-19 death toll in the US.

    Previous presidents have been *consolers-in-chief* at times of great national disaster, but this one? A complete waste of space.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    Trump is nowhere to be seen, and is keeping very quiet about the awful increase in the daily Covid-19 death toll in the US.

    And is in fact doing his best to increase it even more.
  • O yes - the *Christmas Parties*. Sounds as though they'll be more like delayed mass suicides...
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals?
    Hugal wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    Nothing here that a good Christian Socialist couldn't sing with a clear conscience.
  • Hugal wrote: »
    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    A true fusion of communism and Christmas music can be found here [video].
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals?
    Hugal wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    LOL re "Galveston". And I would've gone with "O Christmas Tree"/"O Tannenbaum".

    As I remember the music to Oh Christmas Tree is the same as The Communist Anthem. That would be saying something

    Nothing here that a good Christian Socialist couldn't sing with a clear conscience.

    I pause slightly over the use of "sacred". On the other hand, being able to sing that verse while glaring at Blair more than makes up for that.
  • Oh myyyyy....
  • Anselmina wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    The question is, will he try to pardon himself? Some are saying if he tries to do that the Supreme Court may have to step in.

    Again, remember Trump can only issue federal pardons.

    States still have the right to conduct and prosecute under their own laws.

    Why would the man who doesn't even need forgiveness from God seek pardon from mere mortals?

    To keep his sorry ass out of jail.
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