TERFs, gender, sex, etc.

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Comments

  • josephinejosephine Shipmate
    edited August 3
    Any legislation that would exclude trans women from the women's facilities, and require them to use the men's facilities, would at the same time exclude trans men from the men's facilities, require them to use the women's facilities.

    Thus, "trans people should use the facilities for the sex they were born with" will put the gentlemen in the first photo at this link in the women's facilities.

    I'm not sure that's what [redacted] Forstater and other TERFs want. But if they were to get what they say they want, this would, I think, be one of the results.
  • Yes, it also raises the question, how would you keep trans people out of various facilities? I suppose you could check birth certificates. Wow.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Yes, it also raises the question, how would you keep trans people out of various facilities? I suppose you could check birth certificates. Wow.
    IIRC, such things have been proposed. But probably not with the understanding of who well some reassignments actually go. I would not question most of the dudes in josephine's link.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    The women's toilets with cubicles that are in a mall that I visit are always closed when a male cleaner is working there. There are alternate toilets a couple of yards away that are available instead.

    The same is true when the male toilets are cleaned by a woman.
  • Do we need to carry ID everywhere and swipe it in order to enter the "appropriate" facilities?
  • Every woman with an even slightly masculine face, or build, or hairstyle, will be questioned (even more than now). In other words, harrassment on a horrific scale. Just what the Religious Right ordered. Make those people suffer.
  • josephinejosephine Shipmate
    edited August 3
    Do we need to carry ID everywhere and swipe it in order to enter the "appropriate" facilities?

    Given that a trans person can get the gender marker on their IDs changed, Ms. Forstater [redacted] would not, I think, want to accept the gender on a government-issued ID. I mean, that's what Ms. Forstater's case was about, right? She wanted the right to use the gender she decided was a person's "true" gender, regardless of what they said, and regardless of what their government-issued ID said.

    And, of course, their ability to discern a person's true gender is not likely to be as accurate as they think. A young woman I know is in the Navy; she's slim, fit, wears her hair short for safety and convenience. And she has been physically dragged out of the woman's room at a bar, because someone had appointed themselves the potty police, and decided she wasn't a real woman.

    I think the only reasonable thing to do is to let people decide which facilities they want to use.

    If people are really worried about predatory men pretending to be trans women, and sneaking into the women's room to attack someone, the issue is not trans women. It's predatory men. Folks need to make sure the remedies they're proposing address the real issue.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Every woman with an even slightly masculine face, or build, or hairstyle, will be questioned (even more than now). In other words, harrassment on a horrific scale. Just what the Religious Right ordered. Make those people suffer.

    I'm sure I've seen concrete examples of this already. Such as a lesbian with a 'butch' look being harassed and attacked in the apparent belief that she was a man.

    Androgyny becomes a crime.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    When we think about what might be 'appropriate' facilities and how someone gets to claim the right to use those facilities, I keep thinking of how people with disabilities negotiate public spaces with some of the same tensions between being visibly different and having an invisible disability. There is a 'question and response' problem posed by disabilities advocate Rosemary Garland-Thomson that shows conflicting aspects from the perspective of the person concerned rather than from the perspective of the non-disabled or non-trans person, the latter being the dominant perspective all through this thread (something that is disturbing and skewed).

    The question is
    'What is wrong with you?"
    and the standard response
    "I was born this way."

    What needs to be considered here is the question of body management -- in other words, what my body needs to do if I am to urinate in a private but public place without harassment or confrontation or being criminalised -- and then the question of social management, how to indicate to others that this is why I am doing this, this is who I am, how to resist certain labels, how to refuse certain discrediting social norms. If this has to be renegotiated or resisted each time a facility is required, it is a daily ordeal and form of discrimination very close to that faced by many disabled people who do not believe anything is 'wrong' with them, or that they were 'born this way'.
  • RussRuss Shipmate
    edited August 3
    In fact [redacted], many right wing and Christian media have portrayed this case as about "sex is real". This is a distortion, it would be more accurate to say, "sex is real, and gender identity isn't".

    The issue is surely that both are real, and some people have trouble coping with that.

    When Boogie says
    Boogie wrote: »
    My trans woman friend was always a woman.
    she demonstrates the same apparent need to oversimplify.

    Bodies and minds are both real and both important.


  • A new case begins in the high court next week, where the right to give puberty blockers to under 18s will be challenged. Don't know all the details, or how much this will threaten treatment. Sorry, no link. Story is in the Guardian.
  • CJCfarwestCJCfarwest Shipmate Posts: 40
    link to article here

    The case is as much about revisiting case law on “Gillick”competence (the capacity of underage children to consent to treatment) as it is about management of gender reassignment. But the case will inevitably range round a lot of the issues.
  • CJCfarwest wrote: »
    link to article here

    The case is as much about revisiting case law on “Gillick”competence (the capacity of underage children to consent to treatment) as it is about management of gender reassignment. But the case will inevitably range round a lot of the issues.

    It sounds like an attack on the Tavistock, which has pioneered treatment of gender non-conformity. There has been a campaign in the right wing media, against the Tavi, and related treatments of gender issues, especially in children.

    If they can stop puberty blockers being dispensed via gender clinics, the online trade will take off, in fact, it is already going on, because of waiting lists.

    Why are the right wing so hostile to gender variance? Is it seen as a blurring of boundaries?
  • TERF = Trans-Exclusionary-Radical-Feminist

    I think it is an accusation rather than a self-identification but I could be wrong. I think some people who query trans identity call themselves gender-critical.

    Thank you - I am still struggling to understand properly what this means.

    More importantly - the RF piece that also includes TF would seem to be a quite niche group. Whereas is appears to be used about anyone who rejects the identification of trans people.

    And @Eutychus I was thinking of here with the horses comment, I just couldn't remember the title. Thank you for it being moved.

    Over on Reddit, the /r/gendercynical group tracks the /r/gendercritical grouping where the loudest of the GC lot convene. Although TERFs and SWERFs are small in number, they carry a llot of political power int he UK..
  • CJCfarwest wrote: »
    link to article here

    The case is as much about revisiting case law on “Gillick”competence (the capacity of underage children to consent to treatment) as it is about management of gender reassignment. But the case will inevitably range round a lot of the issues.

    It sounds like an attack on the Tavistock, which has pioneered treatment of gender non-conformity. There has been a campaign in the right wing media, against the Tavi, and related treatments of gender issues, especially in children.

    If they can stop puberty blockers being dispensed via gender clinics, the online trade will take off, in fact, it is already going on, because of waiting lists.

    Why are the right wing so hostile to gender variance? Is it seen as a blurring of boundaries?

    Anything that touches on reproductive function.
  • CJCfarwest wrote: »
    link to article here

    The case is as much about revisiting case law on “Gillick”competence (the capacity of underage children to consent to treatment) as it is about management of gender reassignment. But the case will inevitably range round a lot of the issues.

    It sounds like an attack on the Tavistock, which has pioneered treatment of gender non-conformity. There has been a campaign in the right wing media, against the Tavi, and related treatments of gender issues, especially in children.

    If they can stop puberty blockers being dispensed via gender clinics, the online trade will take off, in fact, it is already going on, because of waiting lists.

    Why are the right wing so hostile to gender variance? Is it seen as a blurring of boundaries?

    Anything that touches on reproductive function.

    Good point. I suppose this also partly explains the homophobia, and pro-life position. Seen as an attack on the family, and clear categories of male/female.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    edited August 3
    [redacted]
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited January 5
    From an evolutionary stand point it is not surprising that reproductive function causes strong emotion - but it’s not exclusive to lgbtq issues.

    If a cis woman decides she does not want children and tries to get sterilised under the age of thirty, she’ll find medics very, very, very, very, reluctant to carry out the operation. If you have 2 kids and are twenty seven, not so much. And the question they want answered is always, what if you change your mind, are you absolutely sure, really sure, are you certain ?

    I don’t know if there is quite some much resistance to males seeking early sterilisation, (though I imagine it is a rarer phenomenon).

    Fundamentally, most (but not all) physical transition of gender (hormones, surgery etc) means giving up your ability to become a biological parent - and with it ending any aspiration of your family members might have to be grandparents, aunts, uncles etc.
  • The related point with teens, is people fear they think they are sure, but are not really. They fear these people are chasing a chimera of certainty about sense of self that most people do not actually experience at that age. That they have expectation of feeling about themselves, a congruence that most people don’t actually have.
  • The related point with teens, is people fear they think they are sure, but are not really. They fear these people are chasing a chimera of certainty about sense of self that most people do not actually experience at that age. That they have expectation of feeling about themselves, a congruence that most people don’t actually have.

    Yes, it's a valid concern with young people, especially if it involves future reproduction. I wonder also if there is a "Frankenstein" fear, of altering nature.

    However, as far as I can see, for places like the Tavi, it's about helping people in distress, some of them, huge distress, involving self-harm, suicidal thoughts, etc. This means that waiting and/or inaction is dangerous.
  • Further to that, if the Tavi and other gender clinics are stopped from dispensing puberty blockers and other drugs, there will be mayhem. A lot of people will go online, leading to unregulated chaos. It's also a big conundrum, if this isn't a medical/psychiatric decision, whose is it?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited January 5
    This comes back to what we think is actually happening when gender and biological sex don’t match. In the uk our official position is that it is not a psychiatric disorder.

    But we don’t have a clear articulation of, or evidence base about what gender identity is, if it is not:
    • Biological sex
    • Mechanism of reproduction
    • Sexual attraction
    • Romantic attraction
    • Manner of dress & self presentation
    • Social role

    We have an evidence base for is that folk who experience themselves as trans, who are not permitted to transition:

    A
    • Have higher rates of self-harm & suicide
    • Have higher rates of long term mental health problems
    • Have a higher risk of engaging with unsafe & unregulated procedures and products

    We have an evidence base that people who are read as trans by the mainstream population

    B
    • Experience higher rate of bullying and harassment (illegal and anti-social behaviour)
    • Are at far higher risk of being a victim of physical and sexual violence than they are to victimise others

    We have no better solution to list A than transition, but we have the power to change B by simply requiring people to comply with existing legal and moral codes about how you treat other people.

    Eventually we will have a better evidence about how people come to have a trans identity - but ultimately we should do least harm. The do we trust teen issue is at some level - are we allowing people to lose their reproductive function and risk all the consequences of the imperfect prevention of list B, when it may turn out they not “truly trans” ?

    A question we can not answer when we do not know what “truly trans” is. Our experience with homosexuality suggests people are generally right when they identify their own sexual orientation regardless of age. Trans activists assume this is also true re trans identity, but the availability of services is basically too new to actually know.

    But are the risks of accepting self-declared trans identity in teens bigger than the risks in list A, I’d say no they are not and therefore providing blockers seems the least harm option - even if they do have potential health risks. Because those risks are not going to be worse than suicide.
  • Presumably, the applicants to the high court are arguing that under 18s with gender variance are not treated medically. I wonder what they suggest instead?

    The point about gay identity is interesting, as it's generally accepted that you know if you're gay, allowing for bi as well. However, the TERF argument seems to be that "trans people are wrong to say they are trans, because I, a self-declared expert on human identity, hereby declare that your gender identity is the same as your biological sex. I forgot to say that I'm also an expert on human sexuality."
  • DafydDafyd Shipmate
    However, the TERF argument seems to be that "trans people are wrong to say they are trans, because I, a self-declared expert on human identity, hereby declare that your gender identity is the same as your biological sex. I forgot to say that I'm also an expert on human sexuality."
    The TERF argument as I understand it is that gender is a patriarchal illusion that should ultimately be abandoned. Also, that someone who is censured for expressing a female gender identity simply cannot have that gender identity in the same way that someone who has been censured for not expressing that gender identity since a young age has done.
    I've certainly come across women, not necessarily radical feminists, who don't think that people who have not been raised women have any business claiming to know what female gender identity is.
    One female poster on the Ship was complaining that she knew of trans-women in womens' groups who were claiming that discussion issues relating to pregnancy or menstruation were exclusionary of trans-women.
  • Well, I would be skeptical about people claiming to know what male or female identity is in general. Speaking for myself, I haven't a clue, nor what my own gender identity is. However, if a trans person says that they feel male or female, I respect that, and agree that they should get treatment, if required. A lot of TERFs seem to argue at the moment that sex alone is real, so the trans viewpoints are invalid.
  • The only experience I can speak about with even a bit of authenticity is my own, and may misinterpret that. The recent discussion about what it means to be male was great, in that it allowed blokes to say, "This is what being a man feels like to me," and others to reply,"Oh really? That's not my experience ".
  • That is exactly the point. The query about ‘truely trans’ is that perhaps some young people have a narrowly defined idea of what it means to be gender x and believe if that does not feel right then that must mean they are not a member of that gender.


    Whilst many middle aged cisgender onlookers are saying; but that idea of what being that gender is not my understanding of what that gender is and I don’t feel like that either, and I do not believe that this means I have been assigned the wrong gender - I think it means your understanding of that gender is too narrow.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Though I've loads of behaviours and preferences that are outside "traditional" gender expression, I've never felt any conflict between my assigned sex and gender.
    And I think this is part of the problem. People don't as easily get things that are beyond their experience. It should be obvious that this is not an excuse, because there are loads of things we accept though we do not experience them. What we accept, or don't, is more than not processing it internally.
  • Again, I think the comparison with gay is interesting. If John tells me he's gay, I don't doubt him, and I don't know what it feels like. But gender identity seems to elicit disbelief, by TERFs at any rate. I know this is partly because of the conflation of sex and gender.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Was it so long ago that “gay is a choice” was mainstream?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited January 5
    I do think it is partly because homosexuality is easier to explain.

    Q Why do you think you are gay ?
    A: Because I am sexually attracted to people of the same sex

    Q. Why do you think you are trans ? (Without dysphoria)
    A. Because ?
    • Because I’m not sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex ?
    • Because I don’t wear stereotypically masculine/feminine clothes ?
    • Because I don’t take gender stereotypical social roles ?
    • Because I feel different to others ?
    • Because I don’t feel comfortable in my own skin ?

    Many cisgender people could endorse all of those statements. I think people find gender dysphoria somewhat easier to understand but probably not much.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Well, I would be skeptical about people claiming to know what male or female identity is in general. Speaking for myself, I haven't a clue, nor what my own gender identity is. However, if a trans person says that they feel male or female, I respect that, and agree that they should get treatment, if required. A lot of TERFs seem to argue at the moment that sex alone is real, so the trans viewpoints are invalid.

    Agree. The problem is when the general physical make-up is one but the gender perception is another. I can't really understand how it's wrong for those people to get them matching and given our present abilities it's to get the physical to match the perception. I wonder how it would be if we were able easily to alter the perception.
  • I do think it is partly because homosexuality is easier to explain.

    Q Why do you think you are gay ?
    A: Because I am sexually attracted to people of the same sex

    Q. Why do you think you are trans ? (Without dysphoria)
    A. Because ?
    • Because I’m not sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex ?
    • Because I don’t wear stereotypically masculine/feminine clothes ?
    • Because I don’t take gender stereotypical social roles ?
    • Because I feel different to others ?
    • Because I don’t feel comfortable in my own skin ?

    Many cisgender people could endorse all of those statements. I think people find gender dysphoria somewhat easier to understand but probably not much.

    Isn't the answer to "why do you think you are trans?" just "Because I feel like I'm a woman"?

    (for a trans woman; mutatis mutandis for a trans man)
  • But, previously that was taken to mean the first three elements I listed - without them it is difficult to understand what is meant. And that is what I mean by hard to explain.

    You can say you are sexually attracted to a plant pot, and whilst I might think that’s odd - I will know what you mean.
  • 1. One can be trans and asexual, trans and straight, trans and gay, trans and bi, or any other combination.
    2. One can be a butch trans woman, or a femme trans woman. (or whatever is the equivalent for men)
    3. One can be a trans woman who wants to fit into traditional women's roles, or who wants to smash them (or anything in between).

    This just doesn't work.
  • I agree, but that is why I’m saying it so hard to explain what trans means to cisgender folk.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Well, I would be skeptical about people claiming to know what male or female identity is in general. Speaking for myself, I haven't a clue, nor what my own gender identity is. However, if a trans person says that they feel male or female, I respect that, and agree that they should get treatment, if required. A lot of TERFs seem to argue at the moment that sex alone is real, so the trans viewpoints are invalid.

    Agree. The problem is when the general physical make-up is one but the gender perception is another. I can't really understand how it's wrong for those people to get them matching and given our present abilities it's to get the physical to match the perception. I wonder how it would be if we were able easily to alter the perception.
    But that is just messed up. Our mind is who we are. To change that is to create a different person, at least to some extent. Hello dystopian nightmare.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    I do think it is partly because homosexuality is easier to explain.

    Q Why do you think you are gay ?
    A: Because I am sexually attracted to people of the same sex
    IME, homosexuality has become more accepted because nearly everyone knows someone who is homosexual. Almost everyone has somebody in their family, social circle, neighbourhood and/or at work.
    Also, Boomers and early Gen Xer exposure to homosexuality was initially to more Out and Proud and flamboyant. As acceptance grew, more "normal" presentations became visible.
    So the gay = normal people helped.
    Gay was basically seen as three options. Gender is a spectrum. People don't really understand spectra.



  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Well, I would be skeptical about people claiming to know what male or female identity is in general. Speaking for myself, I haven't a clue, nor what my own gender identity is. However, if a trans person says that they feel male or female, I respect that, and agree that they should get treatment, if required. A lot of TERFs seem to argue at the moment that sex alone is real, so the trans viewpoints are invalid.

    Agree. The problem is when the general physical make-up is one but the gender perception is another. I can't really understand how it's wrong for those people to get them matching and given our present abilities it's to get the physical to match the perception. I wonder how it would be if we were able easily to alter the perception.
    But that is just messed up. Our mind is who we are. To change that is to create a different person, at least to some extent. Hello dystopian nightmare.

    I suggest, very respectfully, that you read what I wrote.
  • Our culture doesn't do spectra well. We are dualism-focused.

    Older cultural Judaism had seven genders: male, transman, female, transwoman/voluntary, transwoman/involuntary (eunuch), gay, lesbian.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Well, I would be skeptical about people claiming to know what male or female identity is in general. Speaking for myself, I haven't a clue, nor what my own gender identity is. However, if a trans person says that they feel male or female, I respect that, and agree that they should get treatment, if required. A lot of TERFs seem to argue at the moment that sex alone is real, so the trans viewpoints are invalid.

    Agree. The problem is when the general physical make-up is one but the gender perception is another. I can't really understand how it's wrong for those people to get them matching and given our present abilities it's to get the physical to match the perception. I wonder how it would be if we were able easily to alter the perception.
    But that is just messed up. Our mind is who we are. To change that is to create a different person, at least to some extent. Hello dystopian nightmare.

    I suggest, very respectfully, that you read what I wrote.
    I reread it. And what it seems to me to say that we can alter the physical body of transgender to match their perception of themselves, what would it be like if we could alter their perception instead.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Which sex you are attracted to is not really a sign of being cis or trans.

    It is perfectly possible for a trans person to be either straight or gay.
  • So if you're a trans woman and have a penis and are attracted to women, what's the sexual orientation of the trans person and what's the sexual orientation of the person partnered with them. I have the idea that these are unanswerable questions and I never should have studied psychoanalysis, object relations, psychodynamic psychotherapy and developmental psychology.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    A transwoman who is attracted to women is a lesbian, regardless of whether or not she has a penis. Pretty easily answered.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Well, I would be skeptical about people claiming to know what male or female identity is in general. Speaking for myself, I haven't a clue, nor what my own gender identity is. However, if a trans person says that they feel male or female, I respect that, and agree that they should get treatment, if required. A lot of TERFs seem to argue at the moment that sex alone is real, so the trans viewpoints are invalid.

    Agree. The problem is when the general physical make-up is one but the gender perception is another. I can't really understand how it's wrong for those people to get them matching and given our present abilities it's to get the physical to match the perception. I wonder how it would be if we were able easily to alter the perception.
    But that is just messed up. Our mind is who we are. To change that is to create a different person, at least to some extent. Hello dystopian nightmare.

    I suggest, very respectfully, that you read what I wrote.
    I reread it. And what it seems to me to say that we can alter the physical body of transgender to match their perception of themselves, what would it be like if we could alter their perception instead.

    Yes, you've made the last sentence. The previous sentence acknowledges that we can't alter the perception so we manage the physical.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Well, I would be skeptical about people claiming to know what male or female identity is in general. Speaking for myself, I haven't a clue, nor what my own gender identity is. However, if a trans person says that they feel male or female, I respect that, and agree that they should get treatment, if required. A lot of TERFs seem to argue at the moment that sex alone is real, so the trans viewpoints are invalid.

    Agree. The problem is when the general physical make-up is one but the gender perception is another. I can't really understand how it's wrong for those people to get them matching and given our present abilities it's to get the physical to match the perception. I wonder how it would be if we were able easily to alter the perception.
    But that is just messed up. Our mind is who we are. To change that is to create a different person, at least to some extent. Hello dystopian nightmare.

    I suggest, very respectfully, that you read what I wrote.
    I reread it. And what it seems to me to say that we can alter the physical body of transgender to match their perception of themselves, what would it be like if we could alter their perception instead.

    Yes, you've made the last sentence. The previous sentence acknowledges that we can't alter the perception so we manage the physical.
    Still not seeing where I have misunderstood you. The last sentence is currently philosophical. If it were possible, it would potentially be the nightmare I describe.
    I cannot speak for trans people, but I know altering my perception of who I am would be a non-starter.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Given our present ability yes - but perhaps at some future time changing the perception may be available, much more successful and with greater ease than changing the physical.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited January 6
    .
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I cannot speak for trans people.

    Then stop.

  • It sounds like conversion therapy. Hey, you don't have to be gay/trans, just a few simple instructions and prayers and all those intrusive gay/trans thoughts will simply vanish. Be bright, be modern, be straight/cis!
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