Fuck this fucking virus with a fucking farm implement.

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Comments

  • @Heavenlyannie I hope you're right.... And all good luck with it continuing to be mild.
  • NenyaNenya Shipmate
    Horrific tales from the local Tesco's last time I did go in. The shop guy I was talking too had been assaulted the night before by the bloke who wanted to buy *all* the pot noodles.

    I'd heard some of those tales as well, and made a point in Tesco's this morning of thanking all the staff I could; they are some of the unsung heroes in all this. Some of them were looking white and strained and had been up all night stacking shelves.

    People are afraid and it leads to all sorts of irrationalities. Like the bloke in the store this morning: "I was here at 6am and you're telling me I can only buy two packs of toilet rolls?" (Yes, there were some. Also paracetamol.)
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    This whole business is bringing out the best in people and the worst in people.
  • Nenya wrote: »
    Horrific tales from the local Tesco's last time I did go in. The shop guy I was talking too had been assaulted the night before by the bloke who wanted to buy *all* the pot noodles.

    People are afraid and it leads to all sorts of irrationalities. Like the bloke in the store this morning: "I was here at 6am and you're telling me I can only buy two packs of toilet rolls?" (Yes, there were some. Also paracetamol.)

    One of many reasons it's good that I don't work in retail is that my first thought for a response was: "No, I WAS telling you that you could only buy two packs of toilet roll. Now I am telling you that you can by any because you're leaving."
  • I've just listened to this interview on the Nolan Show (BBC Sounds - 30 mins) with an A&E doctor begging people to stay at home, because we don't have enough ventilators, not enough NHS. It's worth listening to.

    @Heavenlyannie it's possible we've both got mild COVID 19, but I'm not sure where we would have contracted it. We were pretty much social distancing anyway before this because caring situation. We're now being good and self-isolating, and I have read the NHS website and am following the guidance. One of the possible sources I haven't seen: the fellow Guide leader who blithely headed off to Cyprus last week. During the conversation before she went I queried if this was a good idea especially as the other of our team couldn't get to her holiday in Rome. She said that Cyprus was fine. Sadly, not, she's still stuck in Cyprus on hotel lock down, now waiting to be brought home on the last possible flight having been kicked out of the closing hotel at lunchtime today. And not allowed out beyond a walk to the beach and back. Oh dear, a spoilt holiday.

  • A spoilt holiday for her, and possibly spoilt lives for others...
  • OK, let me put it like this. If putting the whole country into lockdown for a year would only save one life then, however tragic it would be for that one person and their loved ones, nobody would seriously suggest we should do it. It would be widely understood that the cure was worse than the disease for society as a whole.

    By the same token, if everybody was going to die unless the whole country went into lockdown for a day then nobody would argue against doing it.

    We are currently somewhere in between those two extremes. Are we somewhere where the balance tips towards the cure being worse than the disease for society as a whole or not? I think we are.

    I’m not sure I agree with your assessment. We are approximately 2 weeks behind Italy’s experience, where they are running out of coffins to bury the dead, and where Channel 4 news the other night were showing footage of army trucks carrying the dead out from a major city as there aren’t enough whatever-the-relevant-medical-services-would-be to do it.

    A hospital not too far from us had a critical incident the day before yesterday, as they had more Covid 19 cases than expected and their ITU was overwhelmed. And the curve of cases (and deaths) is still on its way up, exponentially, as transmissible things tend to do. All normal clinics and routine ops are suspended. And this is before the shtf. This is with the cure (arguably applied too late). How bad it would be for society without these measures isn’t something I wish to think about.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I don't know if this is the same as what Ck posted, as her link requires logging in, but here is a youtube video of an experienced intensive care doctor talking about this. Please listen. Marvin, I'm sure you earnestly believe what you're saying, but it really is coming from a place of ignorance, and making you sound stupid.
  • The thing that really hit me last night (and this isn’t a party political point) is that if a right wing govt are prepared to intervene to pay 80% of people’s wages (as long as you’re not self-employed, in which case, screw you) the alternative to putting these measures in place must be catastrophic.
  • fineline wrote: »
    I don't know if this is the same as what Ck posted, as her link requires logging in, but here is a youtube video of an experienced intensive care doctor talking about this. Please listen. Marvin, I'm sure you earnestly believe what you're saying, but it really is coming from a place of ignorance, and making you sound stupid.

    So many of the comments on that video are about how people should just stay inside for a week or two. But it’s not just a week or two - it’s going to be months. Possibly even years. At what point is it too much? Are we going to have to stay isolated and alone and bored out of our brains until everyone in an at-risk group has died anyway?

    Doublethink said earlier that it’s OK to be massively restrictive of what people can do because it’s temporary. But does that imply that if it had to be permanent then it wouldn’t be OK? And does that mean there’s a length of time above which being in lockdown becomes worse than letting people just catch the disease and taking our chances? How long is that? Can we maybe agree an upper time limit after which we can all go outside again whether the disease has gone away or not?
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    Here's the thing: our experience shows that people only start doing what they should once they're forced to. Even the prospect of being fined €135 isn't making everyone behave.

    I get it, sort of. Staying at home for six weeks sucks. We're only five days in and I already have cabin fever. But if we don't do it, thousands of people are going to die.

    The only people who ought to be making decisions about prolonging the lives of desperately sick people are some combination of the person in question, medical professionals and relatives. Politicians shouldn't be doing it, and neither should Joe Public. That means you and I need to stay at home. And the law needs to make us do it.
  • Jemima the 9thJemima the 9th Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    I don’t think an upper time limit can be agreed yet because of all the unknown things. What I gather from the public health boffins I’ve heard on the radio is that this is likely to be a long term plan of restrictions of different levels. So it could be massively intrusive for (say) 4 months, then less for a few months, then possibly a bit more so.

    It’s not likely to be as restrictive as it is now for years.
  • OK, let me put it like this. If putting the whole country into lockdown for a year would only save one life then, however tragic it would be for that one person and their loved ones, nobody would seriously suggest we should do it. It would be widely understood that the cure was worse than the disease for society as a whole.

    By the same token, if everybody was going to die unless the whole country went into lockdown for a day then nobody would argue against doing it.

    We are currently somewhere in between those two extremes. Are we somewhere where the balance tips towards the cure being worse than the disease for society as a whole or not? I think we are.

    I’m not sure I agree with your assessment. We are approximately 2 weeks behind Italy’s experience, where they are running out of coffins to bury the dead, and where Channel 4 news the other night were showing footage of army trucks carrying the dead out from a major city as there aren’t enough whatever-the-relevant-medical-services-would-be to do it.

    A hospital not too far from us had a critical incident the day before yesterday, as they had more Covid 19 cases than expected and their ITU was overwhelmed. And the curve of cases (and deaths) is still on its way up, exponentially, as transmissible things tend to do. All normal clinics and routine ops are suspended. And this is before the shtf. This is with the cure (arguably applied too late). How bad it would be for society without these measures isn’t something I wish to think about.

    We are following the Italian trajectory, possibly, but repression probably works. Letting it rip is dicey, because the multiplier effect starts to run out of control. Thus, for the US, there are predictions of 2 million dead without repression, (Imperial College figures), and of course, most of them will die without treatment, gasping for breath. Of course, social distancing reduces that figure, and then further measures. I don't really get the idea of do nothing.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    The maximum for full lockdown here is supposedly 45 days. I'm not expecting it to be less.
  • I get it, sort of. Staying at home for six weeks sucks. We're only five days in and I already have cabin fever. But if we don't do it, thousands of people are going to die.

    I can’t help but wonder how many will die from mental health related issues (suicides, etc) caused by isolation. Or do those lives not matter?
    The only people who ought to be making decisions about prolonging the lives of desperately sick people are some combination of the person in question, medical professionals and relatives. Politicians shouldn't be doing it, and neither should Joe Public.

    It’s been said that this is a war against the disease. What are wars if not times when choosing who lives and who dies is very much what governments do? Even in peacetime deciding on health strategies, which cures to fund and which not, is an accepted governmental role even though it inevitably leads to people with certain conditions dying.
  • China offers some hope, if they really are releasing the lockdown. You could end up with a cat and mouse game, relax, and cases increase, lockdown, cases decrease. But hope also rests on vaccines, anti-virals, etc. Lockdown isn't permanent.
  • The maximum for full lockdown here is supposedly 45 days. I'm not expecting it to be less.


    I don’t think I’ll survive 45 days of this.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Did you actually listen to the video, Marvin? Because what you are saying about staying in for years sounds like you didn't. The words if the consultant are far more informative than the comments.

    And FFS, people are forced to stay indoors for prolonged times for all sorts of reasons and they survive.
  • The maximum for full lockdown here is supposedly 45 days. I'm not expecting it to be less.


    I don’t think I’ll survive 45 days of this.
    If the intent is to keep schools closed until the start of the summer holidays (and, all that stuff about Friday being the last day of the school year suggest it is) then we're talking about the country being shut down for 100 days. If the government is thinking of holding strict restrictions for 40-50 days then rolling back some restrictions (following appropriate review) then they could be talking about letting kids back to school for several weeks before the summer break - time to allow some lost teaching to be regained even if not time to hold exams - and, there's no reason why the summer holidays couldn't be shortened in the circumstances, if needed.
  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    The maximum for full lockdown here is supposedly 45 days. I'm not expecting it to be less.

    I don’t think I’ll survive 45 days of this.

    You absolutely will survive if you turn your energy and intellect towards planning how, by not obsessing about a context you can’t change and instead working on adapting what is within your control: yourself.

    There are plenty of helpful threads on other parts of the ship where people have been developing ways of coping and thriving. Many of the contributions come from people with restricted mobility, limited health or a narrow income (or sometimes all three); I am not mentioning those factors in a ‘count your blessings ‘sense, but instead to emphasise that they know what they are talking about when it comes to dealing with limitations - and so it is worth listening to their experience. They already have the wisdom about how to handle this, so you won’t have to work it all out alone.

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    We're not even being forced to stay inside. We can go out, even if in self-isolation, as long as we keep more than 2 metres from other people.
  • fineline wrote: »
    And FFS, people are forced to stay indoors for prolonged times for all sorts of reasons and they survive.
    Being forced to stay indoors is very different from 100 days without anyone coming to visit, with only seeing people from a distance and talking on the phone or via the internet, trying to find things to keep children entertained (let alone help with their education), etc. People who are forced to stay indoors usually cope (if they do) because they have a regular stream of people coming to visit - health professionals, social services, the minister from their church, family etc.

  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    Cameron wrote: »
    @Huia
    @caroline444

    You are both good, kind and noble people. But no one should feel they have to do this, and the kind of discourse that makes them think that they should is terrible.

    Sorry, I meant to reply to this above, but obviously did something wrong.

    For me there is absolutely nothing noble at all. I have experienced depression for many years, and to not exist would truly be no big deal. This probably comes across as very self-pitying, but it isn't. It's honestly just a boring matter of fact.

    The issue for other people is very different though, and my heart goes out to elderly/vulnerable people who may be worried about the situation.

    Lord have mercy.

    I am so, so sorry that’s your experience, Caroline. I don’t want to intrude on your personal situation, so I will simply say that the Jesuits have a rule about not making significant decisions during desolation - and I think it is wise.

    I hope that you will see better times.

  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    As the old punchline has its 'Jews, you have 24 hours to learn how to breathe underwater'.

    Currently responding to friend who has this problem - very high need to stay isolated vs equally strong risk of depression from same. At the moment it's going to be small group patio parties, enter via garden, bring own glasses, maintain 2m spacing, drink a lot... (There's vinyl gloves in there somewhere as well).
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    We're not even being forced to stay inside. We can go out, even if in self-isolation, as long as we keep more than 2 metres from other people.

    It gets confusing because of different countries' rules. But I think in UK walking is OK, and going to the shop. Some countries have stricter rules.
  • TwilightTwilight Shipmate
    I vote we release Marvin. I can't take it anymore.

    Question: For those of us, like my son and I, who think we might have low grade Covid-19. Will it show up if we ever get tested and will it mean we are immune and can go out and be useful?
  • I think tests are for the live virus and not antibodies. Those will be required soon.
  • No one has yet made an effective antibody test, but antibodies have been isolated - they are working to produce one.
  • @Cameron

    I have friends accessible via phone and the internet, and I'm coping okay. Having said that, I'm very touched by your concern. All good wishes from here :smile:
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Shipmate
    edited March 2020

    Doublethink said earlier that it’s OK to be massively restrictive of what people can do because it’s temporary. But does that imply that if it had to be permanent then it wouldn’t be OK? And does that mean there’s a length of time above which being in lockdown becomes worse than letting people just catch the disease and taking our chances? How long is that? Can we maybe agree an upper time limit after which we can all go outside again whether the disease has gone away or not?

    It is temporary because there is a viable end state - the development of a vaccine. That matters in deciding what is viable for a society to sustain itself, materially as well as psychologically.

    For all the criticism of the governments initial response, one of their concerns was *exactly as you are identifying in other posts* the impact of quarantine measures on mental and physical health, and the society wide impact of shutting so much down. It’s not a decision they have made on a whim.

    I think / hope, you are underestimating they extent to which social support will adapt and that you personally will adapt.

    The next few weeks will be grim in terms of the news, but you can control that to an extent by limiting how much time you spend consuming it.

    Remote contact, phone and video with family is a thing - if you live alone as I do. If you are living with family, your patterns and routines are disrupted right now, but new ones can be created.

    Large amounts of leisure and learning resources are being made freely available online, tests are starting already for treatments and vaccines. There are positives if you look for them. Mutual aid groups are forming to support people. Councils are contacting and organising volunteers across entire counties.

    Mental health services are continuing to function, you should contact them if you need to.
  • Marvin--

    Are you claustrophobic?
  • Mental health services are continuing to function, you should contact them if you need to.
    That pre-supposes that mental health services were functioning before Covid-19 came on the scene. I see precious little evidence that even the majority of people were receiving the assessments and treatments they needed; they may get an assessment, eventually, they may get a prescription for anti-depressants and come back a month later for a 5 minute chat and a repeat prescription. Quite how the in-person talk therapy functions in a time of social-isolation.

    Of course, mental health isn't alone in having been systematically destroyed by a decade of Tory government, though it started behind the curve of the rest of the health service, somehow always being the poor relation to treating physical illnesses. I've yet to see any suggestion that the equivalent of getting engineering firms to make ventillators is being applied to mental health provision.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    The maximum for full lockdown here is supposedly 45 days. I'm not expecting it to be less.


    I don’t think I’ll survive 45 days of this.
    If the intent is to keep schools closed until the start of the summer holidays (and, all that stuff about Friday being the last day of the school year suggest it is) then we're talking about the country being shut down for 100 days. If the government is thinking of holding strict restrictions for 40-50 days then rolling back some restrictions (following appropriate review) then they could be talking about letting kids back to school for several weeks before the summer break - time to allow some lost teaching to be regained even if not time to hold exams - and, there's no reason why the summer holidays couldn't be shortened in the circumstances, if needed.

    I think that the different school years for Scotland and England/Wales may have something to do with those predictions.

    The Scottish schools break up at the start of July, so there's not so much point going back after 12 weeks as there is for us south of the border, where we finish late July.

    I am also very glad we have a garden here, with 2 young children, rather than the tiny yard at the previous house.
  • I think I can cope OK with a lockdown, as long as I can walk. I'm an introvert, so can go ages without contact. But I have a wife, which makes huge difference. And a lot of my friends are dead, or with dementia. As the old toast has it, "to absent friends, damn their eyes".
  • Pendragon wrote: »
    The maximum for full lockdown here is supposedly 45 days. I'm not expecting it to be less.


    I don’t think I’ll survive 45 days of this.
    If the intent is to keep schools closed until the start of the summer holidays (and, all that stuff about Friday being the last day of the school year suggest it is) then we're talking about the country being shut down for 100 days. If the government is thinking of holding strict restrictions for 40-50 days then rolling back some restrictions (following appropriate review) then they could be talking about letting kids back to school for several weeks before the summer break - time to allow some lost teaching to be regained even if not time to hold exams - and, there's no reason why the summer holidays couldn't be shortened in the circumstances, if needed.

    I think that the different school years for Scotland and England/Wales may have something to do with those predictions.

    The Scottish schools break up at the start of July, so there's not so much point going back after 12 weeks as there is for us south of the border, where we finish late July.

    I am also very glad we have a garden here, with 2 young children, rather than the tiny yard at the previous house.
    Yes, I calculated the 100 days on Scottish term times ... down south there'd need to be a couple of weeks more than that. But, unless I've missed the national news saying that the intention at the moment is to close (English) schools until the end of April and then reassess the situation the government is planning on a longer shut down of the country than the 45 days in France. If we do have a 45 day shut down, then the schools back at the start of May still gives Scottish kids 5 or 6 weeks of school, 8 or 9 for English kids, without adjusting holiday times. Has there been any suggestion at all that schools could reopen before the end of this academic year?
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    I think you misunderstand the situation in France. 45 days is the maximum duration of total lockdown ie no going out of the house except in exceptional circumstances. I don't think it's a given that everything's going to reopen immediately after that.
  • "Except in exceptional circumstances"? Like getting food?
  • Caroline's situation re depression and seeing the end of life as blessed relief is something to which I can relate. Its not the same as having suicidal thoughts, or wishing you were dead, at least not for me. But when I contemplate death, it does seem like relief even though right now, when I seem to be healthy, I love my life and have plans for the future.
  • I'm following the guidelines as much as I can, but I have no doubt that no gym, pool, or classes is going to be very, very, very, very, very bad for my health. Like, agonizing physical and mental bad for my health, especially if it goes on for more than a couple of weeks. So bad that I might end up in the hospital, taking a spot away from the folks we're supposedly trying to protect.

    And I still have to go to work, because guess what? Employees working from home expect to be paid. Employees laid off need their ROEs. All employees need their health benefits. Employees on medical leave also need their pay cheques. Worst case scenario: survivors will want their life insurance payout. I can't afford to commute by cab or car share so I'm still going everywhere on the bus. I'm still at risk, I'm still a risk to others, but all the things that keep me healthy have been taken away.

  • Mental health services are continuing to function, you should contact them if you need to.
    That pre-supposes that mental health services were functioning before Covid-19 came on the scene. I see precious little evidence that even the majority of people were receiving the assessments and treatments they needed; they may get an assessment, eventually, they may get a prescription for anti-depressants and come back a month later for a 5 minute chat and a repeat prescription. Quite how the in-person talk therapy functions in a time of social-isolation.

    Of course, mental health isn't alone in having been systematically destroyed by a decade of Tory government, though it started behind the curve of the rest of the health service, somehow always being the poor relation to treating physical illnesses. I've yet to see any suggestion that the equivalent of getting engineering firms to make ventillators is being applied to mental health provision.

    Fair point about crappy access (when I was very, very unwell, let the reader understand, and visited my GP, who referred me to CMHT immediately, it took them a month to phone back for an initial assessment), but a lot of CBT is now offered online or over the phone anyway. Lots of people prefer it that way.

    Ofc you’ve still got to get to the top of the list, and CBT only works in some cases, and so on and so on.
  • CameronCameron Shipmate
    I'm following the guidelines as much as I can, but I have no doubt that no gym, pool, or classes is going to be very, very, very, very, very bad for my health. Like, agonizing physical and mental bad for my health, especially if it goes on for more than a couple of weeks. So bad that I might end up in the hospital, taking a spot away from the folks we're supposedly trying to protect.

    And I still have to go to work, because guess what? Employees working from home expect to be paid. Employees laid off need their ROEs. All employees need their health benefits. Employees on medical leave also need their pay cheques. Worst case scenario: survivors will want their life insurance payout. I can't afford to commute by cab or car share so I'm still going everywhere on the bus. I'm still at risk, I'm still a risk to others, but all the things that keep me healthy have been taken away.

    Are you OK to use / get a bike?
    I am picking one up today to replace the bus. For me it will pay for itself quite quickly, given the stupid bus fares here. But your distances / climate might not work so well - I don’t recall where you are.

    Would online exercise classes help?
    Free recorded exercise videos and fitness plans available from the NHS - cardio, strength, dance, pilates, yoga, etc etc. Arrange to follow one at the same time as a friend and compare experiences afterwards, especially if you try something a little unusual :smiley:

    I hope you find some workarounds that suit you.
  • Pendragon wrote: »
    The maximum for full lockdown here is supposedly 45 days. I'm not expecting it to be less.


    I don’t think I’ll survive 45 days of this.
    If the intent is to keep schools closed until the start of the summer holidays (and, all that stuff about Friday being the last day of the school year suggest it is) then we're talking about the country being shut down for 100 days. If the government is thinking of holding strict restrictions for 40-50 days then rolling back some restrictions (following appropriate review) then they could be talking about letting kids back to school for several weeks before the summer break - time to allow some lost teaching to be regained even if not time to hold exams - and, there's no reason why the summer holidays couldn't be shortened in the circumstances, if needed.

    I think that the different school years for Scotland and England/Wales may have something to do with those predictions.

    The Scottish schools break up at the start of July, so there's not so much point going back after 12 weeks as there is for us south of the border, where we finish late July.

    I am also very glad we have a garden here, with 2 young children, rather than the tiny yard at the previous house.
    Yes, I calculated the 100 days on Scottish term times ... down south there'd need to be a couple of weeks more than that. But, unless I've missed the national news saying that the intention at the moment is to close (English) schools until the end of April and then reassess the situation the government is planning on a longer shut down of the country than the 45 days in France. If we do have a 45 day shut down, then the schools back at the start of May still gives Scottish kids 5 or 6 weeks of school, 8 or 9 for English kids, without adjusting holiday times. Has there been any suggestion at all that schools could reopen before the end of this academic year?

    The schools themselves don't know: some places have planned work to last the rest of the school year, ours is only planning until the end of the Easter holidays, and will add further activities if it's not running beyond that.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    fineline wrote: »
    And FFS, people are forced to stay indoors for prolonged times for all sorts of reasons and they survive.
    Being forced to stay indoors is very different from 100 days without anyone coming to visit, with only seeing people from a distance and talking on the phone or via the internet, trying to find things to keep children entertained (let alone help with their education), etc. People who are forced to stay indoors usually cope (if they do) because they have a regular stream of people coming to visit - health professionals, social services, the minister from their church, family etc.

    Yes, each situation is different. But plenty don't have a network of friends and social support. Some are alone too. I know quite a few people who for various physical/mental health reasons do stay home for long periods with no visitors. And it is of course possible for people die if stuck at home alone - from suicide, or from not taking care of themselves, or having an accident. But most don't die. That is what I mean by survive - not that it's not hard, but that they stay alive through it. They don't get a virus that kills them or gives them disabling respiratory problems for the rest of their lives. And there is an end to this isolation - it is temporary. People come out of it at the end. Realistically, far, far fewer will die from being at home than from coronavirus.

  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    "Except in exceptional circumstances"? Like getting food?

    You understand perfectly. The only reasons you are allowed outside are:

    - going to work if your job can't be done from home
    - buying groceries
    - medical appointments
    - exercise (you must be by yourself, ie jogging or cycling and you have to stay within 1 km of your home)
    - walking a dog
    - taking children outside briefly to stop them going insane (only one parent, not both at the same time)

    You need your ID and a signed and dated document saying why you're out. You can print it from the internet, or if you don't have a printer, you need to write it out longhand. If you can't produce the necessary papers, you get fined €135.

    I took Captain Pyjamas out to get some air earlier and yes, I got stopped by the police. And I'm ok with it.
  • "Except in exceptional circumstances"? Like getting food?

    You understand perfectly. The only reasons you are allowed outside are:

    - going to work if your job can't be done from home
    - buying groceries
    - medical appointments
    - exercise (you must be by yourself, ie jogging or cycling and you have to stay within 1 km of your home)

    My understanding was that cycling was banned is that correct ?
  • I'm following the guidelines as much as I can, but I have no doubt that no gym, pool, or classes is going to be very, very, very, very, very bad for my health. Like, agonizing physical and mental bad for my health, especially if it goes on for more than a couple of weeks. So bad that I might end up in the hospital, taking a spot away from the folks we're supposedly trying to protect.

    And this is an aspect of the pandemic I have heard discussed: ancillary sickness and deaths caused by both the disease itself, and the social response. For instance if all the hospital beds are full up with COVID patients, there won't be room for people with other diseases. But if steps aren't taken, the very sober and well-considered Imperial College of London report says half a million Brits and 2.2 million Americans will die just from the disease itself. The numbers of reported cases are still doubling in the US every 2 days -- meaning it's still exponential. And, contrary to MtM's whinge, it's not just people in "vulnerable" categories. Although their numbers are smaller, there are young and healthy people too.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Circus Host, 8th Day Host
    "Except in exceptional circumstances"? Like getting food?

    You understand perfectly. The only reasons you are allowed outside are:

    - going to work if your job can't be done from home
    - buying groceries
    - medical appointments
    - exercise (you must be by yourself, ie jogging or cycling and you have to stay within 1 km of your home)

    My understanding was that cycling was banned is that correct ?

    Must be a new rule. People were still riding bikes until recently. The official legislative text says you're allowed to exercise alone but isn't more explicit than that.
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Thanks for the philosophy, statistics, sociology and whatever else from you folks who can afford the time and energy to witter on about the relativity of tragedy, who's really worth saving, etc
    I am on a drug which in 3 months resulted in a major reduction in the body-spread of my cancer tumors and for the subsequent 20 months has arrested the development of what's left. I have every chance of dying with cancer rather than of it.
    I'm really glad (NOT) to see you all being able to look at this issue so dispassionately while at the same time praying for my health and well-being on the cancer thread.
  • As mousethief says, the exponential effect is very scary, the multiplier. If you start with one sick person, and that doubles every day, after 3 weeks, you have 500 000. I think in the early days, some people didn't realize this, and that it can get out of control. Well, it is. Suppressing it is unavoidable.
  • Fourth day of self-isolation here. Daughter woke up coughing on Wednesday and I've got something, but I doubt very much it's Covid 19, we're far too healthy.
    My 15 year old went of sick on Tuesday with a slight odd cough. His friends also have the same cough. None of them feel unwell. I developed the vague cough on Wednesday, alongside a sore throat and feeling under the weather. I now feel fatigued but no raised temperature. I think we all have a mild case of COVID 19. The NHS 111 site agrees with me.

    Hope the symptoms stay mild. Also that everyone is isolating completely for 14 days. As awful as that is.

    Radio news has the arrest by police of someone is to be isolating who was out walking city streets in Québec.

    Re life and death. The real point is to put others before yourself. I thought we knew that.
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