The Prophecy of The Popes

undead_ratundead_rat Shipmate
edited January 7 in Purgatory
Also known as the Prophecy of St. Malachy, but O'Brien proved that Malachy did not make it. Its true author was Fr. Arnold Wion who published a list of 113 papal predictions in 1595.
The attribution to St. Malachy appears to have been a ruse to allow Wion to avoid prosecution by the Roman Inquisition. (In Catholic theology prophecy ended with the Book of Revelation, and any subsequent end of the world prophecy is heretical.)

The second issue is that an altered list was reprinted by Fr. Messingham in 1624 in his History of the Irish Saints, and this list was shortened to just 112 predictions. This editing may not have made much difference in 1624, but now that we are at number 112 for Pope Francis, it makes a crucial difference. Prediction number 113 names the last pope as "Petrus Romanus," and Francis clearly has no connection to that title. Number 112 which is the one that applies to him.
It reads:

In psecutione. extrema S.R.E. sedebit.

The correct translation is: "He will reign in the final persecution. of the Holy Roman Church."

This is an ominous prediction, and it remains to be seem if it will come true.

[edited to remove all-caps title - Alan Cresswell]
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Comments

  • Hmm. Interesting, if obscure.

    (Please could a kindly Host stop the thread title from shouting?)
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    No it doesn't.
  • I think it would be an ecumenical matter.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I was hearing this whole "Next Pope will be the Antichrist" thing in the schoolyard back in the early 80s.

    (I mean, that's what's being predicted here, right? Or does "the final persecution of The Holy Roman Church" mean the RCC will be persecuted by some external force? Either way, some variation on "The shit's really gonna hit the fan with the next Pontiff".)
  • The *persecution* might stem from internal forces - the ongoing child abuse scandals, for example...

  • Dave WDave W Shipmate
    So what’s the track record on the predictions for all the other popes?
  • Dave W wrote: »
    So what’s the track record on the predictions for all the other popes?

    If memory serves it's really good on the ones between its alleged date of writing and date of "discovery" but kind of shit after that. But maybe I'm thinking of a different false prophecy.
  • Given that, by tradition, Popes do not take the name Peter and Malachy/Wion/O'Brien say that the final one will be 'Peter the Roman', isn't this one prophecy that can be avoided by any new Pope not calling himself Peter II? For added comfort, the College of Cardinals could refuse to elect anyone with the baptismal or religious name of Peter?
  • I get the distinct impression that we're not taking this thread seriously.

    Maybe we should, though?

    YMMV.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    You can not be serious.
  • :wink:

    Perspicacious as ever...
  • I think it would be an ecumenical matter.

    That's the great thing about Catholicism. Its so vague and nobody really knows what its all about.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I think it would be an ecumenical matter.

    That's the great thing about Catholicism. Its so vague and nobody really knows what its all about.

    As a former barking rabid Whore and Her Daughters anti-catholic, what?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Am I being a bit Aspy here guys? I hope so.
  • @Martin54 How did you get into the Church? Was it like collect 12 crisp packets and become a Priest?

    (Camry OTA posted a Father Ted quote, and I followed with my own).
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Parp, parp!
  • I get the distinct impression that we're not taking this thread seriously.

    Maybe we should, though?

    Why?
  • Long time since I read any of that. And I lean towards not believing it, though I don't completely rule it out. Anyway, it wouldn't have to be a literal Peter, someone with that name. It's symmetry, cycle, etc.: Peter the first pope and Peter the last.

    Interesting how these things go. AIUI, there were only supposed to be 13 Dalai Lamas in the current lineage--but the current is the *14th*.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Long time since I read any of that. And I lean towards not believing it, though I don't completely rule it out. Anyway, it wouldn't have to be a literal Peter, someone with that name. It's symmetry, cycle, etc.: Peter the first pope and Peter the last.

    Interesting how these things go. AIUI, there were only supposed to be 13 Dalai Lamas in the current lineage--but the current is the *14th*.

    Though the current one has suggested he may be the last.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    I think it would be an ecumenical matter.

    That's the great thing about Catholicism. Its so vague and nobody really knows what its all about.

    As a former barking rabid Whore and Her Daughters anti-catholic, what?

    I don't think that the Catholic church teaches that the Bible is "error-free", at least not in the way that the term "error-free" is usually understood in discussions about the Bible today.

    Nor do I think the 10 Commandments play quite the central role in RC theology that he thinks they do.

    The writer of that article seems to think that Catholics are something like uber-fundamentalists, probably because they're known to be a conservative church, and conservatism and fundamentalism are often assumed to be synonymous by hoi poloi.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited January 8
    I'll also note that on a list of "essential Catholic beliefs", the writer fails to mention Transubstantiation or Apostolic Succession from Peter to the current Pope, both of which are much more distinctively Catholic than is veneration of the 10 Commandments.
  • Atmf--

    Yes (Wikipedia). Per him, it's up to the Tibetan people. There could be a woman DL. The Chinese gov't might interfere intervene, and make their own choice. (Like they did with the Panchen Lama.)
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    edited January 8
    Nothing has the same zany verve and distraction as Catholic conspiracy theories about the papacy. As a starry-eyed convert who was only interested in the social justice encyclicals, I once attended a Padre Pio prayer group where I took to the miraculous notions of saintly bilocation and stigmata so readily that I was then told all about Pope Joan who gave birth to a son in Rome, later to become Bishop of Brescia. After a few years of lively discussion about various apocalyptic prophecies, papal abductions, murders and the deep dark mysteries of the Vatican Secret Archives, Dan Brown seemed quite tame.


    Until recently I believed without question that the anticipated resignation of Pope Francis (who may yet turn out to be Peter the Roman) in 2020 would fulfill a 900-year-old prophecy and usher in the End Times. Like everything else about 2020, that was another non-event.
  • Predictions and prophecies are tricky. If they don't happen as foretold, you never know whether they were wrong from the beginning, or whether something changed. If they do happen as foretold, you don't know whether it was an accurate prediction, something that was *made* to happen, or a total coincidence.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Exactly, @Golden Key. The most enduring prophecies, and I'm thinking of Nostradamus here, are those obscure or ambiguous enough to fit any situation and where the outcome is so cryptic that nobody is quite sure if they have been fulfilled or not.
  • LydaLyda Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Predictions and prophecies are tricky. If they don't happen as foretold, you never know whether they were wrong from the beginning, or whether something changed. If they do happen as foretold, you don't know whether it was an accurate prediction, something that was *made* to happen, or a total coincidence.

    Unless you read The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch- all her prophecies were entirely correct. See Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman's Good Omens.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    I'll also note that on a list of "essential Catholic beliefs", the writer fails to mention Transubstantiation or Apostolic Succession from Peter to the current Pope, both of which are much more distinctively Catholic than is veneration of the 10 Commandments.

    Aye, I was demonstrating that it's easy to come up with 'what it's all about'. And I totally agree it's a second rate definition. It was the source name I went for.
  • MaryLouise wrote: »
    Exactly, @Golden Key. The most enduring prophecies, and I'm thinking of Nostradamus here, are those obscure or ambiguous enough to fit any situation and where the outcome is so cryptic that nobody is quite sure if they have been fulfilled or not.

    IMHO, Nostradamus was a cagey old* coot who didn't want to be burnt at the stake, etc. Hence cryptic.

    *Not all that old, IIRC; but he fits the stereotype.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    The Prophecies of Malachy are ,in a way, part of the warp and woof of cultural Catholicism. Italy has lived for centuries with the pope in its midst,not as a far distant religious figure,but a part of everyday life whether one is a pious believer or not.
    The popes have been removed from Rome several times notably during the Babylonian Schism as well as during the Napoleonic times. the city has 'apostasised' during the Roman Republic in 1848 and again some would have said in 1870 with the breach of Porta Pia and the incorporation of the city into the Italian state. and of course it could happen again.

    The 'prophecies' are so vague that they can be interpreted in any way that one wants.
    to take just some of the recent ones ,
    Religio depopulata - Benedict XV 1914-22 could this refer to WW1 ?
    Fides Intrepida Pius XI 1922-39 could this refer to his Encyclical mit brennender Sorge ?
    Pastor Angelicus Pius XII 1939 -58 does this refer to his hieratic aloofness ?
    Pastor et Nauta John XXIII 1958 -63 does this refer to his life spent around Mediterranean countries or to the fact that he came as pope from Venice by the sea ?
    Flos florum Paul VI does this refer to the fleur de lys in his coat of arms ?
    De medietate lunae John Paul I does this refer to his pontificate of one lunar month or to his name Albino Luciani pale white light ?
    De labore solis John Paul II a long period in public view ?
    De gloria olivae Bendict XVI peace ? but was there peace
    Petrus Secundus romanus + the Third Prophecy of Fatima and things don't look too goo
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    Every society has its 'stories'. The English have the 'legend' of the ravens in the tower.
    If they leave the monarchy will collapse - or so I have heard.

    I should have added earlier 'Add on the Third Secret of Fatima and things don't look too good.

    All Christians,of course, have to deal with the prophecies of the end times contained within Sacred Scripture.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    That's why their wings are clipped.

    Jesus' prophecies were dealt with in 70 AD. John Daniel's shortly after. Well may be a few centuries. Or more...
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited January 8
    MaryLouise wrote: »
    Nothing has the same zany verve and distraction as Catholic conspiracy theories about the papacy. As a starry-eyed convert who was only interested in the social justice encyclicals, I once attended a Padre Pio prayer group where I took to the miraculous notions of saintly bilocation and stigmata so readily that I was then told all about Pope Joan who gave birth to a son in Rome, later to become Bishop of Brescia. After a few years of lively discussion about various apocalyptic prophecies, papal abductions, murders and the deep dark mysteries of the Vatican Secret Archives, Dan Brown seemed quite tame.

    Just to clarify, it was the people at the Padre Pio prayer group who told you about Pope Joan?

    If so, I guess I'm a little surprised, because promotion of the Pope Joan story is something I've always associated with anti-Catholics. But I guess some conspiracy-minded Catholics have found a way to incorporate it into their repertoire?

  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    @Stetson, Catholics come to this 'legend' from a different angle and the historical existence or significance of Pope Joan was the basis of a fierce polemic between Protestants (mostly Lutherans) and Roman Catholics during the 16th and 17th centuries. The Padre Pio connection is random-- but as @Forthview noted, miracle stories, folk tales, hagiographic exaggerations, readings of apocalyptic and conspiracy theories have long been 'part of the warp and woof of cultural Catholicism'. The rational is really such a small part of human nature. I often think of the Southern writer Flannery O'Connor: her fascination with Protestant fundamentalist backwoods preachers and prophetic literalists was that they were Christ-haunted in the same way as Catholic mystics, both looking to the language of apocalyptic for vision.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Golden Key wrote: »
    MaryLouise wrote: »
    Exactly, @Golden Key. The most enduring prophecies, and I'm thinking of Nostradamus here, are those obscure or ambiguous enough to fit any situation and where the outcome is so cryptic that nobody is quite sure if they have been fulfilled or not.

    IMHO, Nostradamus was a cagey old* coot who didn't want to be burnt at the stake, etc. Hence cryptic.

    *Not all that old, IIRC; but he fits the stereotype.

    'Cagey' is the word, and I find that same caginess in many medieval women mystics who knew how to code or conceal the visions that might lead to excommunication or worse. Anne Carson's study in Decreation of the beguine Marguerite Porete, burnt at the stake in 1310, shows why women with 'different' visions or understandings of the Divine walked a dangerous tightrope in any telling or showing of their realities.
  • DavidDavid Shipmate
    The legend of Pope Joan is actually rather earlier than you might imagine, appearing in the second half of the thirteenth century.
  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    I suspect that a hypothetical 'last pope' is postulated in order not to have a Pope knocking around during the age of AntiChrist. It definitively rules out Pope Damian scenario. In an era when Protestants believed that they were living through the age of Pope D. that might have been important.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    David wrote: »
    The legend of Pope Joan is actually rather earlier than you might imagine, appearing in the second half of the thirteenth century.

    Yes, that's true -- but Catholic/Protestant polemics only took place after the Reformation.
  • DavidDavid Shipmate
    MaryLouise wrote: »
    Yes, that's true -- but Catholic/Protestant polemics only took place after the Reformation.

    Well, quite!
  • mousethief wrote: »
    I get the distinct impression that we're not taking this thread seriously.

    Maybe we should, though?

    Why?

    Why not? It's Lockdown the Third here on Brexshit Island, and people are bored...

    (I was being ironic, as I'm sure you realise. However, should it be required, I have a newly refurbished Irony-O-Meter for sale at just $999, post & packing extra).
    :naughty:
  • Ooooh! Ooooh! "Petrus Secundus" could refer to the fact that there are two Popes (Petrus) at the same time! Never mind the incorrect grammar!
  • What if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us. No one to call him on the phone, 'cept for the pope maybe, in Rome.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    It was obvious to me that 'Glory of the Olive' ought to have meant the election of Cardinal Martini.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Ooooh! Ooooh! "Petrus Secundus" could refer to the fact that there are two Popes (Petrus) at the same time! Never mind the incorrect grammar!

    Wouldn't that be Duo Petri?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited January 8
    Maybe, but only the most handsome one could be called a dish...
  • mousethief wrote: »
    I get the distinct impression that we're not taking this thread seriously.

    Maybe we should, though?

    Why?

    Why not? It's Lockdown the Third here on Brexshit Island, and people are bored...

    (I was being ironic, as I'm sure you realise. However, should it be required, I have a newly refurbished Irony-O-Meter for sale at just $999, post & packing extra).
    :naughty:

    As soon as you perfect the Irony font, you can by snotty about it. Until then, bugger off.
  • :open_mouth:

    OK then.

    'Bye.
  • AnselminaAnselmina Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    I was hearing this whole "Next Pope will be the Antichrist" thing in the schoolyard back in the early 80s.

    As an Ulster Prod you would've grown up with the knowledge that every Pope that has ever lived is the anti-christ. And that the Roman Church is the Whore or Babylon. Anyone got anything new on this, let me know!!
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Anselmina wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    I was hearing this whole "Next Pope will be the Antichrist" thing in the schoolyard back in the early 80s.

    As an Ulster Prod you would've grown up with the knowledge that every Pope that has ever lived is the anti-christ. And that the Roman Church is the Whore or Babylon. Anyone got anything new on this, let me know!!

    In the 1970s, Hal Lindsey made it somewhat more palatable to contempary American(ie. Catholic-friendly or at least tolerant) sensibilities by positing that the Whore of Babylon was occultic religious practices like astrology etc.

    Which really doesn't make much sense, because why would occultism in the current era be specifically associated with Rome?

    Furthermore, while I know people make big bucks off of fortune-telling, it almost certainly isn't the economic mainstay implied by Revelation 18.

  • HedgehogHedgehog Shipmate
    Ooooh! Ooooh! "Petrus Secundus" could refer to the fact that there are two Popes (Petrus) at the same time! Never mind the incorrect grammar!
    But weren't we told that "petrus" meant "rock"? So it would be the second rock. At first I was thinking of Rock Hudson, but then we had Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson...so we have already had two Rocks without (apparently) the world ending. But then I realized that "second rock" is referring to "the second rock from the sun," which would be Venus, named after a Roman goddess. Roman. As in Rome. That makes it undeniably clear that the prophecy means that the last pope will be a woman!

    As usual with such "prophecies" one just employs a lot of abstract imagery and vague terminology. And then just trust in the ingenuity of the credulous to fill in the blanks for you.
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