Israel and Palestine Again: Are we all hopeless and have given up?

Well?

BTW, I have stopped praying for Israel, instead I am praying for Palestine, and all who dwell in the Holy Land. I cannot right now separate the word "Israel" from the Israeli government.
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Comments

  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    The sooner Netanyahu is in jail the better.
  • I have heard that this is Netanyahu's Wag the Dog moment.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Business as usual. What should we be rationally hoping for and not surrendering?
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    I gave up years ago. Israel continues to crush opposition; Biden agrees.
  • edited May 17
    This is like a couple who claim they have been trying to conceive for 70 years. The first thing an obstetrician would do is to determine if the couple had really been trying to get pregnant in the first place, or are just talking about it in the doctor's office, blaming the other's fertility, and then going home to sleep in separate bedrooms. These two communities have to decide that they really want to conceive peace. There is no artificial insemination in international relations.

    Periodically it looks like they do want to get pregnant, like when Egypt, Syria and Israel got it together because of the terrible costs after the 1973 war (Anwar Sadat & Menachem Begin agreed to be midwives together). Since then, the two nations bring in an obstetrician and use the doctor against the other: the Israelis so they can pretend they are trying to find a political solution, the Palestinians so they can avoid making concessions. This happens so often, it is like an endless replay of Waiting for Godot, with more violence.

    I think the best way to understand the two communities' intention is not what they say to us or to themselves, but what they say to each other. Just like a doc talking to a couple trying to have a baby.

    It's pretty obvious that the initiative for this present conflict is the totally unfair Israeli seizing of homes in Jerusalem, using their court system to do it- the court system won't be fair, and we all know it. While this was the thing which lit the spark for this, if it wasn't that, it would be something else. The element we aren't hearing much about is the Hamas - PLO (Fatah) rivalry and conflict (Hamas controls Gaza, the Palestinian Authority, the West Bank) . A report with Al Jazeera discussed that Israel can delay anything serious about getting pregnant with peace until what I might call the "health problems" with the Palestinian parent is settled.

    (I got the obstetrician idea from a book some years ago from a book.)
  • It's the same story. The Israeli government does something to further oppress the Palestinians (in this case, evict people from their homes to make way for Jewish settlers - and, do that during Ramadan when most of those they're evicting are fasting). The Palestinians know from bitter experience that they have no recourse to protect their rights, so do the only thing they can and take to the streets to protest, burn a few tyres throw the odd stone. The Israeli government deploys disproportionate force to quell the unrest, bullets get fired and some Palestinian kid is killed. Someone in Gaza breaks out the rockets, most of which get intercepted or don't hit anything much. And, Israel claims that the Palestinians started it and uses that to justify bombing the shit out of civilian refugees that they're already making sure live in a shit hole. The world looks on, calling for calm and peace ... but, no one tells it as it is and demands that the Israeli government pull down illegal settlements and return stolen land to those who own it with realistic threats against Israeli interests (bans on sale of military equipment, or anything that can be used to make military equipment, naval and air blockades to enforce these, troops on the ground to observe and enforce the return of land to those who have been robbed and the dismantling of the military infrastructure supporting the occupation ...)
  • It's nothing like a couple, unless Palestine is the abused wife in a forced marriage. Nobody should be surprised if she tries to beat her husband/rapist to death with a rolling pin, nor would any reasonable jury convict if she did. Even without the violence the relationship has all the elements of coercive control - controlling access to money, restricting what she can spend money on, threatening her children, telling her she's lazy and stupid, abusing her until she lashes out then punishing her for it, victim blaming, not letting her leave the house without permission, trying to cut her off from her friends who might try and help her, it's all there.
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    That's a good analogy, arethosemyfeet, especially in terms of coercive control, then, "It's your fault, you deserve to be punished, wack, wack."
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    edited May 17
    Hopeless and angry.

    Such inequality and abuse is appalling. The money pouring into Israel from the US is obscene.

  • amyboamybo Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Hopeless and angry.

    Such inequality and abuse is appalling. The money pouring into Israel from the US is obscene.

    As an American, I am heartbroken by our involvement. Our actions are absolutely evil.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    I’m not sure about everyone having given up, but it really doesn’t help that there are so many who are ready and willing to break out accusations of antisemitism any time anyone criticises Israel for this shit.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    amybo wrote: »
    Boogie wrote: »
    Hopeless and angry.

    Such inequality and abuse is appalling. The money pouring into Israel from the US is obscene.

    As an American, I am heartbroken by our involvement. Our actions are absolutely evil.

    Not yours. Your government’s.

  • The point of the obstetrician story is not to say they are a couple and are having a baby, it is to draw attention to the clear facts that they are in this together and any moves to peace and settlement requires both to work together to do it. There is no desire on either side to have a settlement and to have peace.

    There's a long history of bad behaviour on multilateral sides, but you have to be willing to consider the history. Yes, right now Israel. Previously Palestinians/Arabs. Previously and presently surrounding countries. Previously and presently other countries using the situation as proxy for their conflicts.
  • Sorry, no. "Both sides" isn't going to cut it. One side is engaged in an illegal occupation. One side is a sovereign state engaged in war crimes. One side is technologically superior and has more or less complete control over the situation on the ground. One side has imposed a brutal economic blockade on the other and cries foul when anyone dares to suggest a tame consumer and cultural boycott of their own products.
  • Both sides may not be equally blame worthy. Both sides must solve it. That's the point.

  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    I’m not sure about everyone having given up, but it really doesn’t help that there are so many who are ready and willing to break out accusations of antisemitism any time anyone criticises Israel for this shit.

    OK over the weekend we had people driving round Jewish areas of London flying the Palestinian flag and calling out for Jews to be killed and their women folk raped, we had a pro-Palestinian demo with a bloody great inflatable Jewish caricature, with devil horns, looking like the sort of the sort of thing that the late Julius Stretcher; and the faction currently lobbing missiles from Gaza into Israel subscriber to the truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and object to the teaching of the Holocaust as a historical truth.

    Obviously, only a fool or a knave would suggest that criticism of Israel is anything other than bloodless Rawlsian proceduralism. How very dare they!
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Thank you for proving my point.
  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    You had a point? I thought you were just denying the bleeding obvious in the hope that no-one would notice.
  • Both sides may not be equally blame worthy. Both sides must solve it. That's the point.

    It's a flawed point. Only one side has any power to solve it, both because it has a broadly functional government and because it has control of the situation on the ground. And because it's the one that has repeatedly set pre-conditions on negotiations.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Both sides may not be equally blame worthy. Both sides must solve it. That's the point.

    It can be solved short term by Hamas ceasing to fire rockets at Israel.

    I don't know if it can be solved long term. A two state solution would be great but Israel are scared to give ground in the West Bank
  • Telford wrote: »
    Both sides may not be equally blame worthy. Both sides must solve it. That's the point.

    It can be solved short term by Hamas ceasing to fire rockets at Israel.

    How does that solve the problem of Palestinians being driven from their homes?
  • quetzalcoatlquetzalcoatl Shipmate
    Yeah, the abused wife should stop complaining, or she's heading for trouble.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    Callan wrote: »
    I’m not sure about everyone having given up, but it really doesn’t help that there are so many who are ready and willing to break out accusations of antisemitism any time anyone criticises Israel for this shit.

    OK over the weekend we had people driving round Jewish areas of London flying the Palestinian flag and calling out for Jews to be killed and their women folk raped,

    When you say 'people' you mean a group of 4 people who have now been charged. We also had someone drive into a demo into a group of peaceful demonstrators, but I notice you don't mention that.
    we had a pro-Palestinian demo with a bloody great inflatable Jewish caricature, with devil horns,

    You mean an inflatable of the current ruler of Abu Dhabi ?
  • Volvo DriverVolvo Driver Suspended Posts: 15
    As I understand it, according to Yahoo News, the land was given by Jordan to the Jewish people...
    The reason the holdover tenants in Sheikh Jarrah lack ownership today is not because the state of Israel has denied the Palestinian Arabs any rights they acquired, but, rather, because the government of Jordan declined to give the Palestinian Arabs title to the land Jordan had seized.

    https://news.yahoo.com/truth-sheikh-jarrah-eviction-163629383.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIkZDNElOv8k6w5AdVoaY_wI6RCYKOh6Euum16hrHLMKAQQhUN4w07ApJGXauY28AAzj-hCuHbdFS-Roh65jyr58tSFqUNpUDcFedCfVgz2xxEE9qxMcPkjbnAr1iWF5d64pU4oikMTgMcE-8wWnXicCcqqfJXirJHJhaOoSMR55&guccounter=2

    Which is pretty ironic really. According to the article The Palestinians evicted were squatting on Jewish land - that Jordan had ceded to the Jewish settlers - and refusing to pay rent, and the courts declared that they could be evicted.

    Rather than an attack against the Palestinians rights, it seems merely to be a case of evicting squatters. Why doesn’t Hamas direct the Palestinians to attack Jordan

    But that won’t play well with those who protest such things. As ever the truth is of only marginal significance for those.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Are you sure you’ve got it right? AIUI Sheikh Jarrah is in East Jerusalem, illegally occupied by Israel.

    Apparently
    East Jerusalem was administered by the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which governed the West Bank. Jordan had built houses for the 28 Palestinian families in 1956 with the approval of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA.

    In the 1960s, the families agreed a deal with the Jordanian government that would make them the owners of the land and houses, receiving official land deeds signed in their names after three years. In return, they would renounce their refugee status.

    However, the deal was cut short as Israel captured and illegally occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem in the 1967 Middle East war and Jordan lost control of the territories.

    Currently, there are 38 Palestinian families living in Sheikh Jarrah, four of them facing imminent eviction, while three are expected to be removed on 1 August.

    The rest are in different stages of court cases, going head-to-head with powerful Israeli settler groups in Israeli courts.
  • CallanCallan Shipmate
    Callan wrote: »
    I’m not sure about everyone having given up, but it really doesn’t help that there are so many who are ready and willing to break out accusations of antisemitism any time anyone criticises Israel for this shit.

    OK over the weekend we had people driving round Jewish areas of London flying the Palestinian flag and calling out for Jews to be killed and their women folk raped,

    When you say 'people' you mean a group of 4 people who have now been charged. We also had someone drive into a demo into a group of peaceful demonstrators, but I notice you don't mention that.

    As I was citing evidence of anti-Semitism, I was hardly going to mention that, given that the driver to the best of my knowledge was not an anti-Semite and the demonstrators (again) not to my knowledge Jews. My contention was, and is, that anti-Semitism exists and is relevant to discussion of Israel because some (not all) criticism of Israel is informed by anti-Semitism. Pointing to such incidents was salient and relevant to my thesis. As I was making a point on an internet discussion board and not seeking to emulate Gibbon's Decline and Fall it was not necessary for me to chronicle the entire weekend in minute detail to make my point. Although if we are going down that route, I note your failure to respond to my point about the Hamas Charter and their history of holocaust denial.
    we had a pro-Palestinian demo with a bloody great inflatable Jewish caricature, with devil horns,

    You mean an inflatable of the current ruler of Abu Dhabi ?

    It's one of the tropes of anti-Semitic politics that those considered to be working in the interests of the Jews may themselves be considered Jewish. The conspicuous example I can think of are the American rightist circles who referred to the wartime US President as Franklin D. Rosenfeld. The fact that an Arab leader who is deemed insufficiently sound on the Jewish question can be caricatured as a Jew is hardly evidence that the caricature is not, in itself, anti-Semitic.
  • As I understand it, according to Yahoo News, the land was given by Jordan to the Jewish people...
    The reason the holdover tenants in Sheikh Jarrah lack ownership today is not because the state of Israel has denied the Palestinian Arabs any rights they acquired, but, rather, because the government of Jordan declined to give the Palestinian Arabs title to the land Jordan had seized.

    https://news.yahoo.com/truth-sheikh-jarrah-eviction-163629383.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIkZDNElOv8k6w5AdVoaY_wI6RCYKOh6Euum16hrHLMKAQQhUN4w07ApJGXauY28AAzj-hCuHbdFS-Roh65jyr58tSFqUNpUDcFedCfVgz2xxEE9qxMcPkjbnAr1iWF5d64pU4oikMTgMcE-8wWnXicCcqqfJXirJHJhaOoSMR55&guccounter=2

    Which is pretty ironic really. According to the article The Palestinians evicted were squatting on Jewish land - that Jordan had ceded to the Jewish settlers - and refusing to pay rent, and the courts declared that they could be evicted.

    Rather than an attack against the Palestinians rights, it seems merely to be a case of evicting squatters. Why doesn’t Hamas direct the Palestinians to attack Jordan

    But that won’t play well with those who protest such things. As ever the truth is of only marginal significance for those.

    That's not "yahoo news", that's the far right National Review. And utterly unsurprisingly its spin on the situation is inaccurate to the point of dishonesty. It neglects to mention that Jewish residents in identical situations were granted title to the land by the Israeli government. This is a clear example of the crime of apartheid under international law.
  • Volvo DriverVolvo Driver Suspended Posts: 15
    BroJames wrote: »
    Are you sure you’ve got it right? AIUI Sheikh Jarrah is in East Jerusalem, illegally occupied by Israel.

    Apparently
    East Jerusalem was administered by the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which governed the West Bank. Jordan had built houses for the 28 Palestinian families in 1956 with the approval of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA.

    In the 1960s, the families agreed a deal with the Jordanian government that would make them the owners of the land and houses, receiving official land deeds signed in their names after three years. In return, they would renounce their refugee status.

    However, the deal was cut short as Israel captured and illegally occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem in the 1967 Middle East war and Jordan lost control of the territories.

    Currently, there are 38 Palestinian families living in Sheikh Jarrah, four of them facing imminent eviction, while three are expected to be removed on 1 August.

    The rest are in different stages of court cases, going head-to-head with powerful Israeli settler groups in Israeli courts.

    It’s more a question of if the article I quoted got it right.

    It does address your point, stating that Jordan occupied the land in 1948 and following the Six DayWar, the Israelis gave the title of the land to those who had held it under Jordanian occupation.

    The Jordanians never ceded title of the land to the Arab Palestinians, letting it remain Israeli. Consequently after the war the courts gave the land back to the original title holders, who were Jewish.

    As the article says, if the Jordanians had given the land to the Palestinians during their occupation, the Israelis would have honoured their title.

    Jordan's fault.
  • Volvo DriverVolvo Driver Suspended Posts: 15
    As I understand it, according to Yahoo News, the land was given by Jordan to the Jewish people...
    The reason the holdover tenants in Sheikh Jarrah lack ownership today is not because the state of Israel has denied the Palestinian Arabs any rights they acquired, but, rather, because the government of Jordan declined to give the Palestinian Arabs title to the land Jordan had seized.

    https://news.yahoo.com/truth-sheikh-jarrah-eviction-163629383.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIkZDNElOv8k6w5AdVoaY_wI6RCYKOh6Euum16hrHLMKAQQhUN4w07ApJGXauY28AAzj-hCuHbdFS-Roh65jyr58tSFqUNpUDcFedCfVgz2xxEE9qxMcPkjbnAr1iWF5d64pU4oikMTgMcE-8wWnXicCcqqfJXirJHJhaOoSMR55&guccounter=2

    Which is pretty ironic really. According to the article The Palestinians evicted were squatting on Jewish land - that Jordan had ceded to the Jewish settlers - and refusing to pay rent, and the courts declared that they could be evicted.

    Rather than an attack against the Palestinians rights, it seems merely to be a case of evicting squatters. Why doesn’t Hamas direct the Palestinians to attack Jordan

    But that won’t play well with those who protest such things. As ever the truth is of only marginal significance for those.

    That's not "yahoo news", that's the far right National Review. And utterly unsurprisingly its spin on the situation is inaccurate to the point of dishonesty. It neglects to mention that Jewish residents in identical situations were granted title to the land by the Israeli government. This is a clear example of the crime of apartheid under international law.

    Did the Jewish people you refer to have that land ceded to them by the Jordanians during their occupation? If so the Israeli followed the laws honouring the land titles allocated by the Jordanians.

    There were probably Palestinians who benefited from those laws.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Callan wrote: »
    You had a point? I thought you were just denying the bleeding obvious in the hope that no-one would notice.

    My point was that any time someone criticises Israel’s actions in the West Bank or Gaza, someone else will play the antisemitism card to shut them up. Which you did.
  • BullfrogBullfrog Shipmate
    I think to have a real "hope," it has to be attached to a tangible thing. What do we want? A united secular state? A Jewish state? Two states that will get along for some reason in spite of past animosities? A present divorced from an ugly history?
  • Even if the Palestinians being thrown out of their homes in Sheikh Jarrah are squatters without legal claim to the land they have been there all there lives, and are only there because their parents and grandparents were thrown off the land they had lived on for generations in an act of ethnic cleansing by the state of Israel. For a group of people to be victims of ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, for them to subject to that twice is evil. Even if an Israeli court rules against them that only indicates that the Israeli court acted unjustly.

    NATO launched airstrikes against governments engaged in ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia. It's a dangerous option, but we need more action against the Israeli government for their crimes against humanity than just hand wringing and calls for both sides to stop firing at each other without accompanying calls for Palestinians to have safe and secure homes, and access to the necessary goods for a decent life (food, water, fuel, education, health care etc).
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    Telford wrote: »
    Both sides may not be equally blame worthy. Both sides must solve it. That's the point.

    It can be solved short term by Hamas ceasing to fire rockets at Israel.

    How does that solve the problem of Palestinians being driven from their homes?

    It solves the problem of Israel taking revenge by bombing Gaza
  • Even if the Palestinians being thrown out of their homes in Sheikh Jarrah are squatters without legal claim to the land they have been there all there lives, and are only there because their parents and grandparents were thrown off the land they had lived on for generations in an act of ethnic cleansing by the state of Israel. For a group of people to be victims of ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity, for them to subject to that twice is evil. Even if an Israeli court rules against them that only indicates that the Israeli court acted unjustly.

    NATO launched airstrikes against governments engaged in ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia. It's a dangerous option, but we need more action against the Israeli government for their crimes against humanity than just hand wringing and calls for both sides to stop firing at each other without accompanying calls for Palestinians to have safe and secure homes, and access to the necessary goods for a decent life (food, water, fuel, education, health care etc).

    Ethnic cleansing is a new term. In the time frame for the creation of Israel, the mass movement of populations, shifting borders was pretty normal. Poland shifting west massively, Russia also west, Germany shrinking, most (all) of the central and eastern European countries gaining and losing territory. Jews were expelled from all of the other countries in the area. Made it normative. Not okay. I believe Baghdad had the largest community of Jews until 1948. We've only been worried about ethnic expulsions recently.

    There is going back to before Israel was created. The current crisis in East Jerusalem is obviously Israel's doing. If not that it would have been something else.

    No NATO nor anyone else wants to start WW3. And hand wringing isn't helpful either. But the two sides actually have to agree to do something together. They haven't. Except as I noted above, rarely. You can't want peace more than they do. Outsiders cannot chase down every episode, declaration and merely hope it is serious.
  • Outsiders, specifically the US government, can force Israel's hand. Heck, if the US was serious it could negotiate with other UNSC members and arrange an intervention force to provide security until a final settlement is agreed and cut all arms sales to Israel as a sign of good faith. But we know that won't happen because in Israel the US sees its Manifest Destiny played out in miniature.
  • Why is it that Israeli leaders, after bombing a site where there are a lot of civilians dead or injured always say, "We didn't INTEND to target civilians." No one cares what you "intended", people care if you actually demonstrate an effort to minimize civilian casualties.
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Ethnic cleansing is a new term. In the time frame for the creation of Israel, the mass movement of populations, shifting borders was pretty normal.

    Yes, the Armenians were just mass moving. No genocide there. No ethnic cleansing because the word didn't exist. No wonder the Turks won't admit it was wrong.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    @Alan Cresswell that has no credibility whatsoever. NATO will never intervene militarily in Palestine in any pre-apocalyptic scenario. Similarly America will never even sanction Israel. Weaken Israel enough and her neighbours would mass and she'd have to nuke. Unless NATO then attacked Israel's neighbours to prevent the second Shoah.
  • chrisstileschrisstiles Shipmate
    As I understand it, according to Yahoo News, the land was given by Jordan to the Jewish people...
    The reason the holdover tenants in Sheikh Jarrah lack ownership today is not because the state of Israel has denied the Palestinian Arabs any rights they acquired, but, rather, because the government of Jordan declined to give the Palestinian Arabs title to the land Jordan had seized.

    https://news.yahoo.com/truth-sheikh-jarrah-eviction-163629383.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIkZDNElOv8k6w5AdVoaY_wI6RCYKOh6Euum16hrHLMKAQQhUN4w07ApJGXauY28AAzj-hCuHbdFS-Roh65jyr58tSFqUNpUDcFedCfVgz2xxEE9qxMcPkjbnAr1iWF5d64pU4oikMTgMcE-8wWnXicCcqqfJXirJHJhaOoSMR55&guccounter=2

    Which is pretty ironic really. According to the article The Palestinians evicted were squatting on Jewish land - that Jordan had ceded to the Jewish settlers - and refusing to pay rent, and the courts declared that they could be evicted.

    Rather than an attack against the Palestinians rights, it seems merely to be a case of evicting squatters. Why doesn’t Hamas direct the Palestinians to attack Jordan

    But that won’t play well with those who protest such things. As ever the truth is of only marginal significance for those.

    That's not "yahoo news", that's the far right National Review. And utterly unsurprisingly its spin on the situation is inaccurate to the point of dishonesty. It neglects to mention that Jewish residents in identical situations were granted title to the land by the Israeli government. This is a clear example of the crime of apartheid under international law.

    Did the Jewish people you refer to have that land ceded to them by the Jordanians during their occupation? If so the Israeli followed the laws honouring the land titles allocated by the Jordanians.

    The basis for the Jewish claims to Sheikh Jarrah would - if anything - be Ottoman-era deeds, and the Israeli authorities typically do not allow these same documents to be used in reverse (by Palestinians to make claims within Israel).

    In any case, as an occupied territory Israeli domestic law would normally not have any internationally recognised authority within East Jerusalem.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Ethnic cleansing is a new term. In the time frame for the creation of Israel, the mass movement of populations, shifting borders was pretty normal.

    Yes, the Armenians were just mass moving. No genocide there. No ethnic cleansing because the word didn't exist. No wonder the Turks won't admit it was wrong.

    Don't disagree. At the same time, there was a massive "population exchange" where the Greeks and Turks were compulsorily forced to move. Proceeded by the Greek genocide.

    Parallel: we haven't but just begun to understand the legacy of colonialism where I live. The oppression of indigenous people in Canada and theft of land, resources, future. I expect the biblical 5 generations at least.

    With the Palestine-Israel-Middle East, the extent and history of conflict, we don't know if they will ever see the need to work together. That's the only way. Other countries cannot make them do it, the UN, NATO, no-one else can make it happen. We cannot it more than them. Can we do things to make them want to? I have wondered if there could be a quarantine around the area, a cordon sanitaire.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Ethnic cleansing is a new term. In the time frame for the creation of Israel, the mass movement of populations, shifting borders was pretty normal.

    Yes, the Armenians were just mass moving. No genocide there. No ethnic cleansing because the word didn't exist. No wonder the Turks won't admit it was wrong.

    Don't disagree. At the same time, there was a massive "population exchange" where the Greeks and Turks were compulsorily forced to move. Proceeded by the Greek genocide.

    Parallel: we haven't but just begun to understand the legacy of colonialism where I live. The oppression of indigenous people in Canada and theft of land, resources, future. I expect the biblical 5 generations at least.

    With the Palestine-Israel-Middle East, the extent and history of conflict, we don't know if they will ever see the need to work together. That's the only way. Other countries cannot make them do it, the UN, NATO, no-one else can make it happen. We cannot it more than them. Can we do things to make them want to? I have wondered if there could be a quarantine around the area, a cordon sanitaire.

    That would cause a nuclear holocaust to prevent a second Holocaust.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    NATO cannot get involved with this because neither party is a member of that alliance. Even then, when Turkey landed troops on Cyprus, NATO did not get involved because both countries were in the alliance.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    NATO cannot get involved with this because neither party is a member of that alliance. Even then, when Turkey landed troops on Cyprus, NATO did not get involved because both countries were in the alliance.

    So why did NATO get involved in Bosnia and Kosovo?
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Reporting in from the shore of the Sea of Galilee:

    Good to know you're all on it! It's an indescribable feeling to be the focus of so many people's prayers and blessings.

    I regard all your comments as prayers for my (and everyone here's) safety and wellbeing at the moment and a flourishing future for all of us in The Region very soon. Although very strangely worded for prayers as we usually pray and hear them, that's what I take them as.

    Just don't forget the 10 year old granddaughter of a friend who won't sleep in her bed but curls up in a blanket by the door of her apartment so she can get down the 5 flights of stairs to the shelter quicker. And all the other heartbreaking "logic" that all the little children have come up with as they try to make sense of their situation.

  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    The best advice I've received so far came in a mail from a priest friend in Aotearoa~New Zealand:
    Stay focused on what you can do, who you can be. The rest seems all a bit too big,


  • Best wishes @Galilit. Were that wishes were more than thoughts, and that prayers really did tangible things.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 18
    Prayers for you and for all, Galilit! Especially the children. :cry:
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Ethnic cleansing is a new term. In the time frame for the creation of Israel, the mass movement of populations, shifting borders was pretty normal.

    Yes, the Armenians were just mass moving. No genocide there. No ethnic cleansing because the word didn't exist. No wonder the Turks won't admit it was wrong.

    Don't disagree.

    Don't disagree with my words or my meaning?
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    Galilit wrote: »
    The best advice I've received so far came in a mail from a priest friend in Aotearoa~New Zealand:
    Stay focused on what you can do, who you can be. The rest seems all a bit too big,


    amen

    The difficulty with finding hope in the conflict is that there is so much noise. Hope is a quiet thing.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Prayers and loving support @Galilit, wise words.
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