Israel and Palestine Again: Are we all hopeless and have given up?
Anglican Brat
Shipmate
in Purgatory
Well?
BTW, I have stopped praying for Israel, instead I am praying for Palestine, and all who dwell in the Holy Land. I cannot right now separate the word "Israel" from the Israeli government.
BTW, I have stopped praying for Israel, instead I am praying for Palestine, and all who dwell in the Holy Land. I cannot right now separate the word "Israel" from the Israeli government.
Comments
Periodically it looks like they do want to get pregnant, like when Egypt, Syria and Israel got it together because of the terrible costs after the 1973 war (Anwar Sadat & Menachem Begin agreed to be midwives together). Since then, the two nations bring in an obstetrician and use the doctor against the other: the Israelis so they can pretend they are trying to find a political solution, the Palestinians so they can avoid making concessions. This happens so often, it is like an endless replay of Waiting for Godot, with more violence.
I think the best way to understand the two communities' intention is not what they say to us or to themselves, but what they say to each other. Just like a doc talking to a couple trying to have a baby.
It's pretty obvious that the initiative for this present conflict is the totally unfair Israeli seizing of homes in Jerusalem, using their court system to do it- the court system won't be fair, and we all know it. While this was the thing which lit the spark for this, if it wasn't that, it would be something else. The element we aren't hearing much about is the Hamas - PLO (Fatah) rivalry and conflict (Hamas controls Gaza, the Palestinian Authority, the West Bank) . A report with Al Jazeera discussed that Israel can delay anything serious about getting pregnant with peace until what I might call the "health problems" with the Palestinian parent is settled.
(I got the obstetrician idea from a book some years ago from a book.)
Such inequality and abuse is appalling. The money pouring into Israel from the US is obscene.
As an American, I am heartbroken by our involvement. Our actions are absolutely evil.
Not yours. Your government’s.
There's a long history of bad behaviour on multilateral sides, but you have to be willing to consider the history. Yes, right now Israel. Previously Palestinians/Arabs. Previously and presently surrounding countries. Previously and presently other countries using the situation as proxy for their conflicts.
OK over the weekend we had people driving round Jewish areas of London flying the Palestinian flag and calling out for Jews to be killed and their women folk raped, we had a pro-Palestinian demo with a bloody great inflatable Jewish caricature, with devil horns, looking like the sort of the sort of thing that the late Julius Stretcher; and the faction currently lobbing missiles from Gaza into Israel subscriber to the truth of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and object to the teaching of the Holocaust as a historical truth.
Obviously, only a fool or a knave would suggest that criticism of Israel is anything other than bloodless Rawlsian proceduralism. How very dare they!
It's a flawed point. Only one side has any power to solve it, both because it has a broadly functional government and because it has control of the situation on the ground. And because it's the one that has repeatedly set pre-conditions on negotiations.
It can be solved short term by Hamas ceasing to fire rockets at Israel.
I don't know if it can be solved long term. A two state solution would be great but Israel are scared to give ground in the West Bank
How does that solve the problem of Palestinians being driven from their homes?
When you say 'people' you mean a group of 4 people who have now been charged. We also had someone drive into a demo into a group of peaceful demonstrators, but I notice you don't mention that.
You mean an inflatable of the current ruler of Abu Dhabi ?
https://news.yahoo.com/truth-sheikh-jarrah-eviction-163629383.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIkZDNElOv8k6w5AdVoaY_wI6RCYKOh6Euum16hrHLMKAQQhUN4w07ApJGXauY28AAzj-hCuHbdFS-Roh65jyr58tSFqUNpUDcFedCfVgz2xxEE9qxMcPkjbnAr1iWF5d64pU4oikMTgMcE-8wWnXicCcqqfJXirJHJhaOoSMR55&guccounter=2
Which is pretty ironic really. According to the article The Palestinians evicted were squatting on Jewish land - that Jordan had ceded to the Jewish settlers - and refusing to pay rent, and the courts declared that they could be evicted.
Rather than an attack against the Palestinians rights, it seems merely to be a case of evicting squatters. Why doesn’t Hamas direct the Palestinians to attack Jordan
But that won’t play well with those who protest such things. As ever the truth is of only marginal significance for those.
Apparently
It's one of the tropes of anti-Semitic politics that those considered to be working in the interests of the Jews may themselves be considered Jewish. The conspicuous example I can think of are the American rightist circles who referred to the wartime US President as Franklin D. Rosenfeld. The fact that an Arab leader who is deemed insufficiently sound on the Jewish question can be caricatured as a Jew is hardly evidence that the caricature is not, in itself, anti-Semitic.
That's not "yahoo news", that's the far right National Review. And utterly unsurprisingly its spin on the situation is inaccurate to the point of dishonesty. It neglects to mention that Jewish residents in identical situations were granted title to the land by the Israeli government. This is a clear example of the crime of apartheid under international law.
It’s more a question of if the article I quoted got it right.
It does address your point, stating that Jordan occupied the land in 1948 and following the Six DayWar, the Israelis gave the title of the land to those who had held it under Jordanian occupation.
The Jordanians never ceded title of the land to the Arab Palestinians, letting it remain Israeli. Consequently after the war the courts gave the land back to the original title holders, who were Jewish.
As the article says, if the Jordanians had given the land to the Palestinians during their occupation, the Israelis would have honoured their title.
Jordan's fault.
Did the Jewish people you refer to have that land ceded to them by the Jordanians during their occupation? If so the Israeli followed the laws honouring the land titles allocated by the Jordanians.
There were probably Palestinians who benefited from those laws.
My point was that any time someone criticises Israel’s actions in the West Bank or Gaza, someone else will play the antisemitism card to shut them up. Which you did.
NATO launched airstrikes against governments engaged in ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia. It's a dangerous option, but we need more action against the Israeli government for their crimes against humanity than just hand wringing and calls for both sides to stop firing at each other without accompanying calls for Palestinians to have safe and secure homes, and access to the necessary goods for a decent life (food, water, fuel, education, health care etc).
It solves the problem of Israel taking revenge by bombing Gaza
Ethnic cleansing is a new term. In the time frame for the creation of Israel, the mass movement of populations, shifting borders was pretty normal. Poland shifting west massively, Russia also west, Germany shrinking, most (all) of the central and eastern European countries gaining and losing territory. Jews were expelled from all of the other countries in the area. Made it normative. Not okay. I believe Baghdad had the largest community of Jews until 1948. We've only been worried about ethnic expulsions recently.
There is going back to before Israel was created. The current crisis in East Jerusalem is obviously Israel's doing. If not that it would have been something else.
No NATO nor anyone else wants to start WW3. And hand wringing isn't helpful either. But the two sides actually have to agree to do something together. They haven't. Except as I noted above, rarely. You can't want peace more than they do. Outsiders cannot chase down every episode, declaration and merely hope it is serious.
Yes, the Armenians were just mass moving. No genocide there. No ethnic cleansing because the word didn't exist. No wonder the Turks won't admit it was wrong.
The basis for the Jewish claims to Sheikh Jarrah would - if anything - be Ottoman-era deeds, and the Israeli authorities typically do not allow these same documents to be used in reverse (by Palestinians to make claims within Israel).
In any case, as an occupied territory Israeli domestic law would normally not have any internationally recognised authority within East Jerusalem.
Don't disagree. At the same time, there was a massive "population exchange" where the Greeks and Turks were compulsorily forced to move. Proceeded by the Greek genocide.
Parallel: we haven't but just begun to understand the legacy of colonialism where I live. The oppression of indigenous people in Canada and theft of land, resources, future. I expect the biblical 5 generations at least.
With the Palestine-Israel-Middle East, the extent and history of conflict, we don't know if they will ever see the need to work together. That's the only way. Other countries cannot make them do it, the UN, NATO, no-one else can make it happen. We cannot it more than them. Can we do things to make them want to? I have wondered if there could be a quarantine around the area, a cordon sanitaire.
That would cause a nuclear holocaust to prevent a second Holocaust.
So why did NATO get involved in Bosnia and Kosovo?
Good to know you're all on it! It's an indescribable feeling to be the focus of so many people's prayers and blessings.
I regard all your comments as prayers for my (and everyone here's) safety and wellbeing at the moment and a flourishing future for all of us in The Region very soon. Although very strangely worded for prayers as we usually pray and hear them, that's what I take them as.
Just don't forget the 10 year old granddaughter of a friend who won't sleep in her bed but curls up in a blanket by the door of her apartment so she can get down the 5 flights of stairs to the shelter quicker. And all the other heartbreaking "logic" that all the little children have come up with as they try to make sense of their situation.
Stay focused on what you can do, who you can be. The rest seems all a bit too big,
Don't disagree with my words or my meaning?
amen
The difficulty with finding hope in the conflict is that there is so much noise. Hope is a quiet thing.