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Purgatory: 10,000 new communities in the UK

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  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    My bad: checked the diagram; Bakerloo more like😂
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Enoch wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    The Church is alive and well just north of Lambeth.
    ? You'll need to explain that reference @Martin54. From my recollection, what's 'just north of Lambeth' is quite a wide muddy tidal river.

    There's a rather large railway station district named after a world changing battle in 1815?
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Docklands Light Rail?

    There we go.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    One lives and learns😂
  • No, main line out of Waterloo.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Waterloo hardly a world changing battle; made f*** all difference to the gulag known as New South Wales😜
  • Sojourner wrote: »
    Docklands Light Rail?

    No. It's on the other side of the former London & South-Western Railway main line from Waterloo Station.

    Whilst in this neck of the woods, Oasis Waterloo used to work quite closely (and I hope still does) with the local Anglican parish of St John the Evangelist (at the southern end of Waterloo Bridge, and restored after severe bomb damage to be the *Festival of Britain Church* in 1951).

    I used to attend St John's weekday lunchtime Eucharist many years ago, and AFAIK the church still has as inclusive and diverse a congregation as it had then. Mostly local on Sundays, AIUI!

    Lambeth is blessed with a number of liberal and inclusive Anglican churches...
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    As opposed to the like of St Magnus the Martyr? ( or is that t’other side of the river)?
  • Sojourner wrote: »
    As opposed to the like of St Magnus the Martyr? ( or is that t’other side of the river)?

    Yes, St Magnus is somewhat further to the east (where lies Rome - let the reader understand!), on the other side of the river, at the City, or northern, end of London Bridge. and opposite the large railway station also known as London Bridge.

    There are quite a few liberal and inclusive churches in the City of London, too, as well as some that might not be quite so described...

    I'm labouring a point here, I suspect. but it's simply to say that Oasis Waterloo, for all its good points (and they are Legion) is not the only similar church. They are to be found both within and without the Church of England.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    😂
  • Sojourner wrote: »
    As opposed to the like of St Magnus the Martyr? ( or is that t’other side of the river)?

    Yes, St Magnus is somewhat further to the east (where lies Rome - let the reader understand!), on the other side of the river, at the City, or northern, end of London Bridge. and opposite the large railway station also known as London Bridge.

    There are quite a few liberal and inclusive churches in the City of London, too, as well as some that might not be quite so described...

    I'm labouring a point here, I suspect. but it's simply to say that Oasis Waterloo, for all its good points (and they are Legion) is not the only similar church. They are to be found both within and without the Church of England.

    Our Australian parish's first benefactor came from a family long linked to St Magnus, the Child family of whom the actor Jeremy Child is a scion. The irony is that William's last will and testament made a final bequest to the parish so long as none of the popish tendencies were allowed to infiltrate worship.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Boy, he’d be revolving in his grave now!
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited July 2021
    Ah, but does the Will refer to St Magnus' church, or to the Australian parish? AFAIK, St Magnus hasn't always been of a Popish tendency...

    /Apologies for the prolonged tangent.
  • Ah, but does the Will refer to St Magnus' church, or to the Australian parish? AFAIK, St Magnus hasn't always been of a Popish tendency...

    /Apologies for the prolonged tangent.

    The Pre WW2 vicar's doings I think
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Waterloo hardly a world changing battle; made f*** all difference to the gulag known as New South Wales😜

    You wrote that in English
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    I don't buy that people aren't going because they don't like the churches on offer ... They don't go for the same reason I don't go and play tennis - because it's not something they feel any need or desire to do.
    I think that is the crucial point. The danger is that the churches then market themselves as "offering something that people need", distorting and commodifying the Gospel message in the process.

    Well, sure.
    How do sell people a solution unless you can convince them there’s a problem in the first place?
  • Ah, but does the Will refer to St Magnus' church, or to the Australian parish? AFAIK, St Magnus hasn't always been of a Popish tendency...

    /Apologies for the prolonged tangent.

    Our Australian parish.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Boy, he’d be revolving in his grave now!
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Waterloo hardly a world changing battle; made f*** all difference to the gulag known as New South Wales😜

    You wrote that in English

    Missed the Russian, Martin me old mucker😂

  • Ah, but does the Will refer to St Magnus' church, or to the Australian parish? AFAIK, St Magnus hasn't always been of a Popish tendency...

    /Apologies for the prolonged tangent.

    Our Australian parish.

    Thanks - I thought that was what you meant.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Boy, he’d be revolving in his grave now!
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Waterloo hardly a world changing battle; made f*** all difference to the gulag known as New South Wales😜

    You wrote that in English

    Missed the Russian, Martin me old mucker😂

    That's 1812
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    A small observation re the transient nature of congregations made up of Bright Young Things students/young professionals.

    Yes, they move away quite soon, but presumably there are fresh victims replacements to be had?

    With apologies for backtracking a bit.

    When I was at university, a couple of decades ago now, this was definitely the case.

    Those off to university from a evangelical background would have been told to join their Christian Union (pretty much every institution having one). Some may have have even been given a church recommendation based on affiliation or places people they know worshipped. At one of the early meetings of the year our CU had a "roadshow" where suitable churches, of various denominations including CofE, sent representatives, and freshers, (or people who had moved off-campus in the wrong direction for the previous year's church) could find a church to attend. Some of the ones in the standard areas for 2+ year students even ran a transport service to help people on campus get there on a Sunday.

    So they made sure there was an annual influx of new students through a very clear pathway. (And I expect that if the answer at Christmas to questions from the home congregation about the student's church is "I haven't really got one", I expect that they would find themselves being encouraged to rectify that post haste on their return to university.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Boy, he’d be revolving in his grave now!
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Waterloo hardly a world changing battle; made f*** all difference to the gulag known as New South Wales😜

    You wrote that in English

    Missed the Russian, Martin me old mucker😂

    That's 1812

    No, GULAG

  • @Pendragon: I suspect that some things may not have changed. I know that our local Uni's CU has a list of "approved student churches"; I also know that we're not on it despite being very local to one of their campuses!
  • @Pendragon: I suspect that some things may not have changed. I know that our local Uni's CU has a list of "approved student churches"; I also know that we're not on it despite being very local to one of their campuses!
    Many universities now have an alternative Christian Focus group which is inclusive and diverse. You could try to get on their list!
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    @Pendragon: I suspect that some things may not have changed. I know that our local Uni's CU has a list of "approved student churches"; I also know that we're not on it despite being very local to one of their campuses!

    It's really arrogant when you think about it. A bunch of (mostly) 18-22 year olds sitting there deciding which churches are kosher.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Hasn’t changed in some places. I understand it is much the same in the E(vangelical) U(nion) at USyd and of course among the Young (RC) traddy Trids there are a select few shacks to which they gravitate…
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Boy, he’d be revolving in his grave now!
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Waterloo hardly a world changing battle; made f*** all difference to the gulag known as New South Wales😜

    You wrote that in English

    Missed the Russian, Martin me old mucker😂

    That's 1812

    No, GULAG

    English does that more than any other language.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Except Russian
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Hasn’t changed in some places. I understand it is much the same in the E(vangelical) U(nion) at USyd and of course among the Young (RC) traddy Trids there are a select few shacks to which they gravitate…

    Gravitating is one thing. An explicit list of approved churches is quite another.
  • Quite.

    There is an organisation in England which is of the Evangelical Perswasion, and exists to point new students into contact with churches in the area of their Universities.

    Our Place - backstreet Anglo-Catholic - is not far from the three nearby Unis, so I have made sure we're on the published list of local churches. AFAIK, no students have come to us via this link, but we do usually have a few students in our congregation anyway!

    Now I come to think of it, I have no idea what (if any) Christian Unions or such there might be on our three campuses (campi?). Many of the students are from Other Countries and Other Faiths, mostly Moslems and Hindus.

  • My daughter has horror stories of RC students being sent to evangelical Anglican churches by the Christian Union at two universities and the chaplain at the first university. She didn't get any useful information from her first, undergraduate, university. That we got from the Ship, when I asked for recommendations, and it was my daughter who directed the RC flatmate to a RC church.

    RC students, and the RC Chaplain, found they worked better with the Muslim Society, which at least respected different faiths and held a list of all the local places of worship.
  • Some of the students we welcome are in fact RCs - our Anglo-Catholic style liturgy is not too far removed from what they're used to! - and the local RC churches are both rather a long way away from the Unis.

  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Hasn’t changed in some places. I understand it is much the same in the E(vangelical) U(nion) at USyd and of course among the Young (RC) traddy Trids there are a select few shacks to which they gravitate…

    Gravitating is one thing. An explicit list of approved churches is quite another.


    Don’t kid yourself there are explicit ( evo & traddy trid) explicit lists in Sunny Sinny and (as regards trad RCs ) in other cities along the east coast of Terror Oz
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    One of my sisters went to the Evangelical Union at Syd Uni and expected that I'd follow. Instead, I somehow found the Anglican Society, most definitely not Sydney Anglican. Eucharists at the Anglican residential college and guidance to St James King St and Christ Church St Laurence introduced me to a different world.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Sojourner wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Sojourner wrote: »
    Hasn’t changed in some places. I understand it is much the same in the E(vangelical) U(nion) at USyd and of course among the Young (RC) traddy Trids there are a select few shacks to which they gravitate…

    Gravitating is one thing. An explicit list of approved churches is quite another.


    Don’t kid yourself there are explicit ( evo & traddy trid) explicit lists in Sunny Sinny and (as regards trad RCs ) in other cities along the east coast of Terror Oz

    I daresay.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    My daughter has horror stories of RC students being sent to evangelical Anglican churches by the Christian Union at two universities and the chaplain at the first university. She didn't get any useful information from her first, undergraduate, university. That we got from the Ship, when I asked for recommendations, and it was my daughter who directed the RC flatmate to a RC church.

    RC students, and the RC Chaplain, found they worked better with the Muslim Society, which at least respected different faiths and held a list of all the local places of worship.

    When I was at University (80s/90s) Catholics were assumed to be "nomimal" Christians and potential converts by the CU.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    My daughter has horror stories of RC students being sent to evangelical Anglican churches by the Christian Union at two universities and the chaplain at the first university. She didn't get any useful information from her first, undergraduate, university. That we got from the Ship, when I asked for recommendations, and it was my daughter who directed the RC flatmate to a RC church.

    RC students, and the RC Chaplain, found they worked better with the Muslim Society, which at least respected different faiths and held a list of all the local places of worship.

    When I was at University (80s/90s) Catholics were assumed to be "nomimal" Christians and potential converts by the CU.

    That was my experience in the 90s. To be fair the more conservative Catholics returned the compliment with interest.

    RC friend: "Now, X, you must be on your best behaviour today - Z is a Protestant"
    X: "Oh, I AM sorry!"
    Z: "Well, I'm not sorry!"
    X: (seriously) "You... will be..."
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    About the same in 1970. In a spirit of ecumenism I attended one EU cell meeting and realised that in their view I was not Xtian and needed yo be “saved”. It did not go down well when I pointed out that we’d already been saved on a certain Friday in approx AD 29….
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    CK, to the average RC student these are not horror stories.

    The real horror for impressionable RC undergrads is getting hunted down by such nasty cults as O(cto)pus Dei. Not a problem at my alma mater but definitely so at the University of New South Wales across town where “The Work” ( as they call themselves) control the RC halls of residence.
  • Doc TorDoc Tor Admin Emeritus
    KarlLB wrote: »
    It's really arrogant when you think about it. A bunch of (mostly) 18-22 year olds sitting there deciding which churches are kosher.

    Tbf, that's the imprimatur of UCCF, who run the people who run the CUs.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    @Pendragon: I suspect that some things may not have changed. I know that our local Uni's CU has a list of "approved student churches"; I also know that we're not on it despite being very local to one of their campuses!
    Many universities now have an alternative Christian Focus group which is inclusive and diverse. You could try to get on their list!

    Is Christian Focus an actual organisation of its own? I've only encountered it as a name for SCM groups, but it might just be that Christian Focus groups are SCM affiliated.

    Part of the problem for non-CU Christian students is that Student Unions are often not very understanding of why a different group would be needed - often SUs will only allow one society of any particular type or interest to be set up, and will view the existence of the CU as a reason to not allow another Christian group.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I don’t think there were approved lists in my day. Practically all the CU went to one central evangelical church, (which also had/has a great social outreach to the homeless). It happened to be Church of England, so that is how I became an Anglican, from a Baptist upbringing.
    Other Christian students tended to stick with their own denomination.
  • Pomona wrote: »
    @Pendragon: I suspect that some things may not have changed. I know that our local Uni's CU has a list of "approved student churches"; I also know that we're not on it despite being very local to one of their campuses!
    Many universities now have an alternative Christian Focus group which is inclusive and diverse. You could try to get on their list!

    Is Christian Focus an actual organisation of its own? I've only encountered it as a name for SCM groups, but it might just be that Christian Focus groups are SCM affiliated.

    Part of the problem for non-CU Christian students is that Student Unions are often not very understanding of why a different group would be needed - often SUs will only allow one society of any particular type or interest to be set up, and will view the existence of the CU as a reason to not allow another Christian group.

    My SU had a CathSoc, an Anglican/Methodist Society (can't remember the name used) as well as the ECU. I think most union execs would be open to the argument that the CU is hostile to women and (especially) LGBT folk and so another organisation is needed. CUs have frequently been a source of grief to SUs given their extreme views.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Pomona wrote: »
    @Pendragon: I suspect that some things may not have changed. I know that our local Uni's CU has a list of "approved student churches"; I also know that we're not on it despite being very local to one of their campuses!
    Many universities now have an alternative Christian Focus group which is inclusive and diverse. You could try to get on their list!

    Is Christian Focus an actual organisation of its own? I've only encountered it as a name for SCM groups, but it might just be that Christian Focus groups are SCM affiliated.

    Part of the problem for non-CU Christian students is that Student Unions are often not very understanding of why a different group would be needed - often SUs will only allow one society of any particular type or interest to be set up, and will view the existence of the CU as a reason to not allow another Christian group.

    My SU had a CathSoc, an Anglican/Methodist Society (can't remember the name used) as well as the ECU. I think most union execs would be open to the argument that the CU is hostile to women and (especially) LGBT folk and so another organisation is needed. CUs have frequently been a source of grief to SUs given their extreme views.

    It depends, some SUs have taken the stance that those are pretty normal Christian views so have needed some persuading - in many universities especially post-92 institutions, there is less of a campus culture as more students commute and/or do placement-heavy courses like nursing or teaching. So often the CU is the only Christian society on campus as there just aren't the numbers for anything else, and CUs tend to be the most motivated.
  • I though Christian Focus was a separate group but it looks like the Student Christian Movement helps groups to set up and then they become affiliated (no personal experience myself as even if I had gone to university it would have been a long time ago and before I was Christian). York certainly has a Christian Focus and it’s advertising is explicit on the inclusivity.
  • betjemaniacbetjemaniac Shipmate
    edited July 2021
    KarlLB wrote: »

    It's really arrogant when you think about it. A bunch of (mostly) 18-22 year olds sitting there deciding which churches are kosher.

    Absolutely, but then thinking back to my own time as an undergraduate at the end of the 1990s at the same time the Labour Soc was heavily factional, or in the grip of the most established faction, as were the Conservatives, etc. Everyone would have been boycotting Barclays Bank - I think 18-22 year olds sitting around putting the world to rights is basically what students do. The difference with this of course is that it's campus thinking spilling off-campus and into the real world.

    On the other hand, I'm sympathetic to the argument that only one society is allowed so it's difficult to compete - I took one look at the CU where I was and didn't go to church for three years. I only started again because after graduation I was at Dartmouth, where attendance on a Sunday morning was compulsory...

  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    50 years ago when I was at Uni there was a Cathsoc that I popped into once or twice to help with the music if there was Mass - there was an excellent Jesuit chaplain - proper intellectual. And there was a CU which was earnest, greasy haired and spotty faced. That held no attraction at all.
    However there was a chapel with a choir that sang full cathedral style Choral Evensongs twice a week. So I joined that choir which was a great bunch of people. I remained an unofficial Anglican (by virtue of being an organist) for several years after that before returning to the RCC.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    I was actually on the Christian Focus committee at Warwick, so I have come across SCM. (Strictly I was a second generation SCM member). The CU got kicked out of the SU a couple of years before I started due to a difference of opinion on homosexuality, although apart from no access to Freshers' Fair it wouldn't have made a huge difference as they used a lecture theatre for meetings. Focus used the Chaplaincy, and was quite closely aligned with the Anglican/Free congregation.

    I believe that York is now the only one using the Focus label. Warwick has apparently swapped to SCM so they can use the national publicity and resources. Unfortunately their target market of MOTR Anglicans/Methodists/Baptists doesn't advertise their existence so well so numbers tend to be a bit smaller in those universities where they exist.

    We have at least one student attending St Quacks, as we are the Society parish closest to the universities.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Pendragon wrote: »
    I was actually on the Christian Focus committee at Warwick, so I have come across SCM. (Strictly I was a second generation SCM member). The CU got kicked out of the SU a couple of years before I started due to a difference of opinion on homosexuality, although apart from no access to Freshers' Fair it wouldn't have made a huge difference as they used a lecture theatre for meetings. Focus used the Chaplaincy, and was quite closely aligned with the Anglican/Free congregation.

    I believe that York is now the only one using the Focus label. Warwick has apparently swapped to SCM so they can use the national publicity and resources. Unfortunately their target market of MOTR Anglicans/Methodists/Baptists doesn't advertise their existence so well so numbers tend to be a bit smaller in those universities where they exist.

    We have at least one student attending St Quacks, as we are the Society parish closest to the universities.

    I have it on good authority (from people who were at Warwick at the time) that the CU was kicked out of the SU due to involvement with a dodgy local church rather than just their view on sexuality.
  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Also SCM as an organisation purposely has no statement of belief - if you identify as a Christian or your group does, you can join. So although there is an LGBTQ+ Officer on the General Council (which is elected by members), individual groups or members are not required to have a particular level of inclusivity of sexuality or other issues. As an organisation it also has links to some more conservative groups that are allied due to having pacifist/peace-seeking ideals. So there ends up being a degree of not wanting to upset more conservative members/associates. As a former member...I have mixed feelings. It's still an organisation that is largely run by middle-class cishet white people.

    In June 2020, while BLM protests were going on worldwide, they actually sent an email to their subscribers apologising for describing the murder of Black people by the police in the US and the UK as murder. Quoting directly, they describe it as 'the use of the term “murder” was an emotional rather than an evidenced-based claim' despite the fact that they explicitly discussed US police as well as UK police, and while a lot of UK churches might dispute the fact that UK police murder Black people I don't know any that would deny those that have happened in the US. They gave a mealy mouthed response to members protesting on their Facebook page and basically said sorry not sorry but we're not redacting that apology for talking about the police murdering Black people. I would recommend a local SCM group for new students who want to find a friendly church and make new friends, but in terms of actual activism the organisation is less than great. They mostly coast on a reputation for inclusivity rather than actually actively making changes.
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