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Purgatory: 10,000 new communities in the UK

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Comments

  • PomonaPomona Shipmate
    Ah sorry, I meant in terms of ousting a lay person from the congregation as a worshipper rather than employment.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Understood perfectly; as I said have seen parishioners pushed out in a variety of ways. Nothing like being “sent to Coventry” or snubbed & insulted by one’s fellows to the point that the only thing to do is go quietly. This is often either ignored or unnoticed by the local cleric.
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Sad when it's done to a well-liked NSM, by the Vicar.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Sad when it's done to a well-liked NSM, by the Vicar.

    Sadder still when it's done to some poor bugger who struggles socially generally and gets the same marginalisation in the church.
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Indeed, and so often they are the ones who get the shove
  • EirenistEirenist Shipmate
    Sad anyway, whoever and whyever.
  • Eirenist wrote: »
    Sad when it's done to a well-liked NSM, by the Vicar.
    NSM?

  • NSM - non-stipendiary minister - i.e. minister without pay
  • Thanks!
  • Where is the love? Ego has to be set aside in order to see it.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    My old mate John McGinley just appointed to Myriad. Just break up Anglican congos in to 50s, job done.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Sad when it's done to a well-liked NSM, by the Vicar.

    Sadder still when it's done to some poor bugger who struggles socially generally and gets the same marginalisation in the church.

    They don't have to struggle socially generally, just with people who don't like being disagreed with when they are wrong.
    From what I read here, there are people all over the place who are ejected from church without any support from within or without, as the ejectors can magically manage to get support for their behaviour.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    My old mate John McGinley just appointed to Myriad. Just break up Anglican congos in to 50s, job done.

    O I wish Our Place could manage a congregation of 50!
    Penny S wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Eirenist wrote: »
    Sad when it's done to a well-liked NSM, by the Vicar.

    Sadder still when it's done to some poor bugger who struggles socially generally and gets the same marginalisation in the church.

    They don't have to struggle socially generally, just with people who don't like being disagreed with when they are wrong.
    From what I read here, there are people all over the place who are ejected from church without any support from within or without, as the ejectors can magically manage to get support for their behaviour.

    Alas, it is so.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    His old gaff could do 10. So IF Anglicanism got a million pew warmers a Sunday in 16,000 congos 10 years ago, according to the BBC. Which I find hard to believe. 2% of the pop. Which I really, really don't believe. My large village, church had 1/2% So half a mill now then. A quarter. In 15...12 thou. 10. Binary fission would still do it! Surely? Whilst still declining.

    15 year ago I was half impressed by a conservative evangelical Anglican from South Africa who spurned Tutu's inclusivism but moved his entire young family to the worst housing estate in Northampton. He got it half right.

    Will the Myriad get it all right? Led by an exclusive?
  • Only the Holy Spirit knows if Myriad will succeed, always assuming someone's told the HS what's expected of Her...
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    edited September 2021
    If Myriad succeeds, it will be a miracle of first Pentecost proportions. Don't hold your pneuma.
  • Or Ruach.
  • From Acts chapter 5:

    34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;

    35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

    <snip>

    38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:

    39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    I'd love to be wrong and that an exclusivist can take us further along the trajectory despite himself, to the sunlit uplands of equality of outcome ahead of the glacial pace of 'natural' eusocial evolution. Do let me know when you see any green shoots. Sink estate crime dropping, school performance rising, drug death rate falling correlated with clergy and pillars of the church holding all things in common.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited September 2021
    A somewhat Utopian view, perhaps, but there are a few green shoots, even in the most difficult places, surely? Not necessarily nurtured only by Christians - other faith communities do their bit as well.

    Not that they ever make the news, of course, at least outside their immediate locality.
    :disappointed:
  • Shit, I read that as 10,000 new communists in the U.K. Too few, too few!
  • Sadly, yes... :mrgreen:
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    A somewhat Utopian view, perhaps, but there are a few green shoots, even in the most difficult places, surely? Not necessarily nurtured only by Christians - other faith communities do their bit as well.

    Not that they ever make the news, of course, at least outside their immediate locality.
    :disappointed:

    Therefore nothing has changed in the decline of Christian cultic religion and its invisible marginal impact on the poor. Nothing will or can change for the better from a movement led by an exclusive damnationist, surely? Unless Sophia decides otherwise.
  • I'm not sure where they expect to find all these lay members with plenty of time on their hands

    Presumably they hope to plant them out of already-successful churches that have a surfeit of willing volunteers, with the intention that once lots of new people start coming along to the new communities they will in turn begin to help with running things. And in time the planted churches may even begin to send out plants of their own.
  • @Marvin the Martian can you point to many successful churches with a surfeit of willing volunteers with time on their hands?
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    edited September 2021
    I can find no trace of the mission to Dallington I saw set sail nearly 15 years ago. Can anyone point to such? Anywhere in England? The UK? Haiti? When I got involved in Leicester 12 years ago, there was talk of repeating what was tried in Liverpool, with communal living by example in abandoned council housing. How did that work out in Liverpool? Never happened in Leicester of course. Apart from rumours. As well as the obvious candidate in Lambeth, I've always been impressed by Emmaus. Anyone seen the Jesus Army anywhere? I saw Stanton himself shaming people in to charismatic excess in their Northampton former cinema at the time of the Dallington mission.
  • @Marvin the Martian can you point to many successful churches with a surfeit of willing volunteers with time on their hands?

    I thought I detected a trace of irony in Marvin's *presumably*...
    :wink:
    Martin54 wrote: »
    A somewhat Utopian view, perhaps, but there are a few green shoots, even in the most difficult places, surely? Not necessarily nurtured only by Christians - other faith communities do their bit as well.

    Not that they ever make the news, of course, at least outside their immediate locality.
    :disappointed:

    Therefore nothing has changed in the decline of Christian cultic religion and its invisible marginal impact on the poor. Nothing will or can change for the better from a movement led by an exclusive damnationist, surely? Unless Sophia decides otherwise.

    (My bold). I'm not sure I quite agree with those words - *almost* invisible would be more accurate, I think!

    However, as you say, Sophia may decide otherwise...

  • @Marvin the Martian can you point to many successful churches with a surfeit of willing volunteers with time on their hands?

    Three or four round here, my own (which itself started out as a planted church half a century or so ago) amongst them. And it's been known in the past for members of our congregation to move to newly planted churches in order to help them become established in their area.
  • I queried it because the post that comment is snipped from points out the difficulties in finding volunteers.
  • It would seem that Marvin was not being ironic, so my bad.

    I have heard of *turn-round teams*, where people from Church A, which is doing well, commit at least some of their time to Church B, which needs extra helping hands (willing volunteers there being in short supply!)

    This was in the then Diocese of Wakefield some years back, and it seemed to work for the parishes concerned.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    @Marvin the Martian can you point to many successful churches with a surfeit of willing volunteers with time on their hands?

    I thought I detected a trace of irony in Marvin's *presumably*...
    :wink:
    Martin54 wrote: »
    A somewhat Utopian view, perhaps, but there are a few green shoots, even in the most difficult places, surely? Not necessarily nurtured only by Christians - other faith communities do their bit as well.

    Not that they ever make the news, of course, at least outside their immediate locality.
    :disappointed:

    Therefore nothing has changed in the decline of Christian cultic religion and its invisible marginal impact on the poor. Nothing will or can change for the better from a movement led by an exclusive damnationist, surely? Unless Sophia decides otherwise.

    (My bold). I'm not sure I quite agree with those words - *almost* invisible would be more accurate, I think!

    However, as you say, Sophia may decide otherwise...

    I defer to the honourable gent. It's not invisible in the odd inner city backstreet I know.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    @Marvin the Martian can you point to many successful churches with a surfeit of willing volunteers with time on their hands?

    I thought I detected a trace of irony in Marvin's *presumably*...
    :wink:
    Martin54 wrote: »
    A somewhat Utopian view, perhaps, but there are a few green shoots, even in the most difficult places, surely? Not necessarily nurtured only by Christians - other faith communities do their bit as well.

    Not that they ever make the news, of course, at least outside their immediate locality.
    :disappointed:

    Therefore nothing has changed in the decline of Christian cultic religion and its invisible marginal impact on the poor. Nothing will or can change for the better from a movement led by an exclusive damnationist, surely? Unless Sophia decides otherwise.

    (My bold). I'm not sure I quite agree with those words - *almost* invisible would be more accurate, I think!

    However, as you say, Sophia may decide otherwise...

    I defer to the honourable gent. It's not invisible in the odd inner city backstreet I know.

    I accept the deference shown by my Honourable Friend :wink: , but I respectfully submit that his point still stands, and that the green shoots visible in inner-city backstreets do not, in themselves, make a great difference to the overall picture of (a) decline, and (b) ambition.
  • I think part of the problem is there are a lot of people in declining churches who would rather see that decline (and inevitable death) than change anything about how they've been doing things for the last several decades. The church of my youth being an excellent case in point - down to a few dozen aged congregants who just want to keep worshipping in their accustomed manner for their remaining years, with no thought of what may happen once they are gone.

    If the Church wants to try to plant new churches/communities into those areas in an effort to engage their wider (and currently unchurched) populations then how is that a bad thing?
  • I think part of the problem is there are a lot of people in declining churches who would rather see that decline (and inevitable death) than change anything about how they've been doing things for the last several decades. The church of my youth being an excellent case in point - down to a few dozen aged congregants who just want to keep worshipping in their accustomed manner for their remaining years, with no thought of what may happen once they are gone.

    If the Church wants to try to plant new churches/communities into those areas in an effort to engage their wider (and currently unchurched) populations then how is that a bad thing?

    Because it falls into the "things are terrible we must do something" / "this is something so we must do it" trap, and throws money and time at the same things that have been tried for the last 3+ decades with no indication that they'll be any more successful, but may shout loud enough to scare away anyone who might have been coaxed into the church if it didn't appear ragingly homophobic and misogynist.
  • I think part of the problem is there are a lot of people in declining churches who would rather see that decline (and inevitable death) than change anything about how they've been doing things for the last several decades. The church of my youth being an excellent case in point - down to a few dozen aged congregants who just want to keep worshipping in their accustomed manner for their remaining years, with no thought of what may happen once they are gone.

    If the Church wants to try to plant new churches/communities into those areas in an effort to engage their wider (and currently unchurched) populations then how is that a bad thing?

    There is some truth in what you say - the mere suggestion of moving a picture at Our Place nearly gave a former churchwarden a fit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

    Problems seem to arise when the process of planting new churches is done without reference to churches (not just C of E churches) who are already there, feeble or not.

    That said, I'm afraid I agree with @Arethosemyfeet in thinking that a goodly number of people who might otherwise be disposed to *try* church are put off by the Dead Horse issues.

    It would be interesting to know how large or small that *goodly* number might be, given that the bulk of the population seems to be entirely indifferent to the claims of the Christian faith.

  • As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.
    Only temporary, then.

  • The bulk of the population seems to be entirely indifferent to the claims of the Christian faith.
    Although there are some who (rightly) shout loudly about DH issues and (again rightly) about abuse, I think total indifference is the far more common position.

  • The bulk of the population seems to be entirely indifferent to the claims of the Christian faith.
    Although there are some who (rightly) shout loudly about DH issues and (again rightly) about abuse, I think total indifference is the far more common position.

    Yes, the DH and abuse issues certainly don't help, and I saw in a news report the other day that no less than 38 faith groups and denominations (so the other major faiths are included) have been found lacking as far as safeguarding is concerned.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited September 2021
    The bulk of the population seems to be entirely indifferent to the claims of the Christian faith.
    Although there are some who (rightly) shout loudly about DH issues and (again rightly) about abuse, I think total indifference is the far more common position.

    That and the apparently low probability of it actually being true. I mean, first you've got the odds of there being a God at all, then you've got the odds of him being how the Christians describe him (as opposed to the Muslims or the Jews or the Hindus or the Sikhs do).

    I think the biggest questions the church has to answer as far as getting people interested at all is concerned are (a) why do you think you're right?, and (b) why should I care?

    For many generations, the answer to those two in a now dwindling population has been (a) we just believe we are and (b) because we always have and we like it. For a population which increasingly doesn't just accept the answer to (a) and for whom (b) doesn't apply, this isn't really working.

    I mean I think the fundamental question is (a), because the answer "because it's true" is actually a valid response to question (b).

    I'm not attending any church at the moment. And I'll be honest, in the turning up on a Sunday to do the things we do when we turn up on a Sunday front, I'm really not missing it. As for some of the other things - Bible studies, prayer groups - I've given them a wide berth for years anyway and would positively avoid like the plague. Consequently I find the general attitude towards church ("bunch of god-botherers") tremendously comprehensible and not a little compelling.
  • O dear. I find myself agreeing with virtually all that @KarlLB has said.

    I do, however, miss the singing of the hymns, and the whiff of incense...and, to a certain extent, the other members of our loyal and faithful little congregation.

    Nevertheless, we are still getting new people coming along, even if only for a short time whilst they're in the area - including (recently) some students from South India.
  • I saw in a news report the other day that no less than 38 faith groups and denominations (so the other major faiths are included) have been found lacking as far as safeguarding is concerned.
    And that was only the faith groups that were contacted by the authors of the report and chose to take part (about 10 groups never even replied to the request and there must be many more "faith communities" out there).

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited September 2021
    I saw in a news report the other day that no less than 38 faith groups and denominations (so the other major faiths are included) have been found lacking as far as safeguarding is concerned.
    And that was only the faith groups that were contacted by the authors of the report and chose to take part (about 10 groups never even replied to the request and there must be many more "faith communities" out there).

    Yes, that is so. Shame on those who declined to take part...
    Previous posts have brought on a reflective and slightly melancholy mood. I wonder how many people there are who might echo Thomas Hardy, regarding faith, in *hoping it might be so*?

    Those words end his poem The Oxen, relating to an old country tradition that, as Christmas Day begins, the cattle and other domestic animals kneel down in homage to the Incarnate Christ:
    https://poetryfoundation.org/poems/53215/the-oxen-56d232503c32d

    Hardy expressed his wistful agnosticism in many other poems, including Afternoon Service at Mellstock:
    http://poetryatlas.com/poetry/poem/546/afternoon-service-at-mellstock.html

    Betjeman's And is it true? springs to mind as well...

    Ahem. Apologies for the English Literature lesson.
  • O rats - missed the edit window. Various links to Afternoon Service At Mellstock seem to be *Not Secure*, so here it is in full (it's only three short stanzas):

    On afternoons of drowsy calm
    We stood in the panelled pew,
    Singing one-voiced a Tate-and-Brady psalm
    To the tune of 'Cambridge New'.

    We watched the elms, we watched the rooks,
    The clouds upon the breeze,
    Between the whiles of glancing at our books,
    And swaying like the trees.

    So mindless were those outpourings! -
    Though I am not aware
    That I have gained by subtle thought on things
    Since we stood psalming there.




  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    Arethosemyfeet -but may shout loud enough to scare away anyone who might have been coaxed into the church if it didn't appear ragingly homophobic and misogynist.
    Baptist Trainfan - Although there are some who (rightly) shout loudly about DH issues and (again rightly) about abuse, I think total indifference is the far more common position.
    Bishop's Finger -
    Yes, the DH and abuse issues certainly don't help, and I saw in a news report the other day that no less than 38 faith groups and denominations (so the other major faiths are included) have been found lacking as far as safeguarding is concerned.


    These two issues are really part of the same thing. I always feel a bit embarassed about using the word 'patriarchy' because I've been so conditioned by years of exposure to the British media to think the minute I say it people will have me down as some caricature militant out of the pages of Viz or the demonology of The Sun and stop listening to whatever I say after I type it. But a lot of religion is patriarchal and about doing things that keep power in older male hands and which uphold a certain toxic version of masculinity - and the fun bit is that quite a few women buy into patriarchal power structures too - preferring to prosper in a subordinate space and to attack other women and gender non conforming folk while expecting to be rewarded and protected as one of the 'good ones' - though of course, if they fall foul of a powerful man, the system can at any point turn on them.

    Abuse prospers because in these institutions the word of powerful men (and powerful patriarchy-supporting women) is taken over the word of women in general, young people, or anyone else less powerful than the patriarchs. There's always a queue of eager upholders of the powerful men ready to work to discredit anyone who has dared to complain.

    Upholding gender binaries and gender roles accounts for most of the rest. ( Homophobia, transphobia and misogyny share common roots.)

    Taking literal approaches to the Bible like creationism helps to uphold the clobber passages - especially those in Genesis which underpin that entire structure. Or appeals are made to church traditions formed in patriarchal contexts as unchanging and unchangeable so daylight can't get in and the patriarchal nature of these institutions can't be dismantled.

    If you're going to plant 10,000 churches then there's surely a social responsibility to think about how to 'de-patriarchalise' those churches and make sure they're not repeating the mistakes which have driven so many people especially women and LGBT+ folks away from churches and wreaked so much damage in terms of sexual abuse.

    One of the most interesting data points for me about how religious patriarchalism plays is the current attack on trans people. Just over 20 years ago in Scotland we had the homophobic Keep The Clause attack on LGBT people. Churches and churchgoers were front and centre with powerful male voices - Cardinal Winning, Brian Souter etc. But now we have the current day attack on trans folk in Scotland and while the religious bodies are all still there making submissions to government against trans folk, they let powerful social conservative women frame it falsely as a feminist issue and lead the charge in the media because they know obvious religious hate campaigns against minorities just wont fly like they used to - so yes attitudes have changed and are changing.

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited September 2021
    One minor (but irritating) manifestation of the patriarchy to which @Louise refers is the habit some Anglo-Catholic clergy have of describing the faithful departed in prayer lists as (say) *Wally Twitt, Aggie Bloomer, and Cornelius Winterbotham, Priest.*

    Now, Father Winterbotham may well have been an excellent priest, but so may the late Reverend Aggie Bloomer have been also. She won't be acknowledged in the prayers as such, and neither will Wally Twitt be acknowledged as a first-class refuse collector...or brain surgeon...or whatever he happened to be in life.

    It's as though only male priests have any importance in the scheme of things.

    A small matter, as I say, but indicative of a certain mindset.
  • And, were Aggie to have been a Bishop, that would not have been acknowledged either.
  • O rats - missed the edit window. Various links to Afternoon Service At Mellstock seem to be *Not Secure*, so here it is in full (it's only three short stanzas):

    On afternoons of drowsy calm
    We stood in the panelled pew,
    Singing one-voiced a Tate-and-Brady psalm
    To the tune of 'Cambridge New'.

    We watched the elms, we watched the rooks,
    The clouds upon the breeze,
    Between the whiles of glancing at our books,
    And swaying like the trees.

    So mindless were those outpourings! -
    Though I am not aware
    That I have gained by subtle thought on things
    Since we stood psalming there.




    Wow. That packs a punch.

    I've offered this several times already here, but in case you missed it, this says something similar to me at perhaps a little more length.
  • I think part of the problem is there are a lot of people in declining churches who would rather see that decline (and inevitable death) than change anything about how they've been doing things for the last several decades. The church of my youth being an excellent case in point - down to a few dozen aged congregants who just want to keep worshipping in their accustomed manner for their remaining years, with no thought of what may happen once they are gone.

    If the Church wants to try to plant new churches/communities into those areas in an effort to engage their wider (and currently unchurched) populations then how is that a bad thing?

    For those of us who are a few years older than you, we have been there, repeatedly over the years. You are assuming something that is not necessarily true. I have been involved in various mission launches locally and where I lived before, and the changes this time don't look a lot different to the last lot, or the time before that, and on ad infinitum.

    Interestingly there was a similar conversation on Twitter in the last few days, see here (link), Fr Eddie Green, late of this parish, said several things I really agreed with in response to the original tweet (which is what is linked and is similar to @Marvin the Martian's point above). The discussion does wander a bit:
    There is healthy and unhealthy growth.

    Healthy growth comes from the community / neighborhood / parish, especially among people new to church.

    Unhealthy growth comes from outside the parish - usually people who are already Christians, attracted by a particular church style.
    and
    Absolutely. The Church Growth model is rooted in privilege. I think those of us from working class backgrounds have more of an eye for context and the local.
    Also 'Church Growth' is a loaded term that refers to a particular missiological approach - gathered / attractional. As opposed to 'Missional' which is local / contextual and rooted in the Missio Dei.

    In that sense I am not for Church Growth (which we used to call inherited) ...

    ... But I am for being Missional - to my very core.

    As someone who has brought a handful of people into churches various over the years, not even necessarily the church I attended, I can no long sign up to be a part of a misogynistic, homophobic organisation with a history of abuse and no obvious interest in resolving any of the issues and would not want to encourage anyone else to join either.

    Those 10,000 communities are a recipe for abuse without a lot of oversight that doesn't seem to be part of the vision.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited September 2021
    O rats - missed the edit window. Various links to Afternoon Service At Mellstock seem to be *Not Secure*, so here it is in full (it's only three short stanzas):

    On afternoons of drowsy calm
    We stood in the panelled pew,
    Singing one-voiced a Tate-and-Brady psalm
    To the tune of 'Cambridge New'.

    We watched the elms, we watched the rooks,
    The clouds upon the breeze,
    Between the whiles of glancing at our books,
    And swaying like the trees.

    So mindless were those outpourings! -
    Though I am not aware
    That I have gained by subtle thought on things
    Since we stood psalming there.




    Wow. That packs a punch.

    I've offered this several times already here, but in case you missed it, this says something similar to me at perhaps a little more length.

    Thanks @mark_in_manchester - a new one on me, but ISWYM.

    Hardy could be prolix at times, but also succinct... :wink:

    @Curiosity killed - yes, there is indeed a sense of déjà vu about the whole thing. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, thrown the video away etc. etc.
  • Martin54 wrote: »
    His old gaff could do 10. So IF Anglicanism got a million pew warmers a Sunday in 16,000 congos 10 years ago, according to the BBC. Which I find hard to believe. 2% of the pop. Which I really, really don't believe. My large village, church had 1/2% So half a mill now then. A quarter. In 15...12 thou. 10. Binary fission would still do it! Surely? Whilst still declining.

    15 year ago I was half impressed by a conservative evangelical Anglican from South Africa who spurned Tutu's inclusivism but moved his entire young family to the worst housing estate in Northampton. He got it half right.

    Will the Myriad get it all right? Led by an exclusive?

    Did he ask the people on the estate if they wanted him there? Northampton has enough to deal with having the Jesus Army locally, when I lived in Northampton the last thing we needed was another conservative to tell us how sinful we were. The local Christian Union was doing plenty of that already.

    This is part of my problem with such schemes. Nobody asks those in such mission fields what they actually want from a church, or who they want to lead such a project. The actual people living there are seen as a blank slate for the incomers to project their own needs and desires onto. I've lived in hostels where similar 'outreach' has happened and it's usually some middle-class person's saviour complex rather than actual service. Nobody ever asked what *we* would like or how *we* could be empowered to form our own community.
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