That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

1235734

Comments

  • Please note: 'Welkin' hain't got no h'aspiration - unlike t'shellfish.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    O - so it h'aint - must be referrin' to 'Eaven, then.
    :grin:

    Wot's all that abaht 'tangents', an' all, innit?

    IJ
  • If you use the Revised Common Lectionary, do you follow the "Continuous Track" for the OT readings in Ordinary Time, or do you follow the "Related Track"?

    For a variety of reasons, I have always tended to plump for the "continuous track", but am thinking about changing to the related track in future. But I am interested to know what other people do.

    (If you don't use the RCL or understand what I am talking about, please feel free to ignore this rather technical question!)
  • Alright, the continuous track is an attempt to compromise with the strong tradition of Lectio Continua held in the Reformed tradition. Basically the practice of reading and preaching through an entire book in a series of services. If you are Anglican or Roman, forget it, you are too fond of doing your own think on feast days for it to be a meaningful discipline. If you are however one of the traditions that use the RCL in a more disciplined way then it is worth thinking about.
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    We use the 'related' - mainly becauase that is what the majoity do.

    The continuous is good if you want to do a sermon series but tends to make the service longer.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    The thing that bugs me about the continuous (whether Hebrew Scriptures or NT) is that it is only semi-continuous, in a way that too often seems too detrimental to the continuity. Also some tings need to be taken as a whole (e.g. the whole Jacob/Joseph saga). They result in chunks too long to be covered in a Sunday reading, or in a series which goes on for too long.
  • Yes. This sort of thing is IMHO best tackled at Bible study/house group - organising which at Our Place, alas, is akin to knitting fog...
    :unamused:

    IJ
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Oh much sympathy there IJ
  • I've always thought that the related track is a little too much like forcing the Bible to be of a "single" message and ends up taking OT passages completely out of context. They can just become rather random bits being used to buttress the gospel passage. But the continuous track is also not perfect. Even if you ignore the gaps in the "continuous track", the whole idea is based on the premise that those in church will be there consistently over the weeks to understand the overall flow of the OT story. And that's just not the case anymore (certainly not round here). So the actual impact of the continuous track is that people get rather random OT stories that may or may not make any sense at all and have no connection with anything else in the service. Hence I am tempted to move to the related track, just so that there can be some semblance of understanding what the OT is (partly) about.
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    I wrote this for our PCC. https://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/introducing-the-new-lectionary-getting-the-bible-into-worship-michael-vasey-et-al/

    I’d add that the continuous makes little sense of people don’t go every week – fathers with access to kids after divorce e.g.. Also, if you have ‘all age’ on the Nth Sunday of every month replacing the Eucharist.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    The thing that bugs me about the continuous (whether Hebrew Scriptures or NT) is that it is only semi-continuous, in a way that too often seems too detrimental to the continuity. Also some tings need to be taken as a whole (e.g. the whole Jacob/Joseph saga). They result in chunks too long to be covered in a Sunday reading, or in a series which goes on for too long.

    That is partly because you are only semi-following the RCL. Without checking you do need to be aware that RCL may not be to blame for these breaks, the CofE often does not stick with the text so as to include other events.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Although that can be true, my observation was based on the original CCT edition of the RCL which in providing a helpful table of what is read when also illustrates how much semi- there is in semi-continuous.
  • How does the moving of Corpus Christi from Thursday to Sunday affect other dates associated with it? I have been told that Sacred Heart is the Friday after Corpus Christi, was it originally the next day or was it originally 8 days afterwards?
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    The moving of Corpus Christi from Thursday to the following Sunday(in some countries) does not affect any other feast day . The Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus is indeed a feast day linked, not to a particular date in the calendar, but rather to the Friday following the Octave of Corpus Christi. The traditional day, Thursday, for Corpus Christi is because it is linked to Holy Thursday/Maundy Thursday. In many countries if the day is not a public holiday then the feast day is transferred to the nearest Sunday, so that greater numbers of Christians will be able to participate in the celebration. Octave days, as such, have virtually disappeared from the Roman calendar, but the Sacred Heart is celebrated on that Friday which would be the Octave of Corpus Christi. Sacred Heart has never been a Holy Day of Obligation, but rather a Day of Devotion and a Friday is a suitable day to celebrate this devotion.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    I should have added for clarity, that if Corpus Christi is celebrated on the Sunday following Trinity Sunday, then indeed the Sacred Heart will be celebrated on the Friday following that Sunday.
  • Just dropping by to say that Michael Vasey (vide Leo's link) was my tutor when I was studying to become a Blue-Scarfed Menace.

    Lovely chap, and very sensible. RIPARIG.

    Leo's remarks about the lack of continuity in Sunday observance is also pertinent - we never have the same congregation week-by-week, apart from the half-dozen Usual Suspects...
    :grimace:

    IJ
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    I find that interesting. I've visited the Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox churches in this city on the river, and it definitely appears to me they all have a fairly constant congregation with a few transients and visitors. I wonder if smaller cities lend themselves more to this.
  • O, our transient congregation reflects the current demographics of our parish!

    Many people these days are just passing through, as it were, living rather wandering and disjointed lives, but picking up some spiritual refreshment at Our Place en route.

    IJ
  • Where we are, we have very few people who will be there almost every week. Some of the members will be there most weeks. More will be there at least 2 times a month but attendance varies depending on a whole host of factors (visiting grandchildren, going away for a month,etc etc). One couple go missing in the summer months because they are heavily involved in bowling during that period. Some people go south for the winter. Some people come to us for the winter. From one Sunday to the next, a lot of the congregation can change. It isn't realistic to expect that anything said or done one week will be remembered by people the next week.
  • Yes, that sounds familiar - and anecdotal evidence from people at other churches in our Deanery suggests that this is now a common phenomenon.

    I suspect other denominations find the same thing happening at their places.

    :grimace:

    IJ
  • Par for the course these days, I think.
  • Par for the course these days, I think.

    I agree. But that ought to have an impact on the assumptions being made about Sunday worship. When the RCL was designed, it was still assumed that most people in the congregation would be there from one week to the next and so would see the continuity in the readings, especially the Epistle. The problem, as I see it, is that RCL doesn't really fit the present circumstances, especially in Ordinary Time. I am not sure what the answer is, though.

    Another aspect of Sunday worship affected by this change in attendance patterns concerns the learning of new hymns. If you teach a congregation a new hymn one week, you can't expect that the same people will be there the next time that you sing it. Perhaps one approach would be to include the new hymn every Sunday for a month.

    Perhaps there are other impacts on Sunday worship that we need to be thinking about.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    Perhaps it is also time to consider worship on a day other than Sunday.
    Given the number of churches that one priest or minister may have to cover, it is crazy that they hurtle at breakneck speed from one church to another.
    We are currently on holiday in such an area, and the priest at the 11am service had driven about 12 miles over hills and hairpin bends to reach us. She had two more churches to get to that same day.
    Quite apart from consideration for the priest, an alternative day may actually help some worshippers attend more often. Sundays are often taken up with visiting family, sport, etc or at least that is the excuse/ reason some give.
  • I agree, although part of the problem is that the people who don't make it on Sundays are not necessarily concerned about attending mid-week in compensation. They will happily miss a week or two. So if you are not careful, you are creating additional services which may not actually justify the extra time needed.

    If such a move is to be made, I think that one of the key principles must be "one out - one in". In other words, for every service you start on another day, there must be one service less on Sundays. But I can't imagine many places agreeing to losing a Sunday service, even if they are being told that they will be gaining a midweek service in return.

    As I say - I am not in disagreement with your suggestion, but the practical working out may be a little tricky!
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I don’t doubt it!
  • TomMTomM Shipmate Posts: 15
    edited June 2018
    The possible convenience of changing when principal liturgies are should be held against the long standing theological reason the Church assembles on a Sunday: as the Evangelists put it, 'Early on the first day of the week, whilst it was still dark...' It is not for convenience that the Church chooses Sunday but because it is the Day of Resurrection.

    There is rather more to the Christian assembly than just when it is convenient for people to turn up.
  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I certainly accept that argument, but we think nothing of having Messy Church on a weekday, or other Fresh Expressions, or making other changes for good reasons, so where there are practical considerations of multiple churches and one priest, or would- be congregants who work weekends, then I think it is time to accommodate them.

    The alternative is less frequent services in some rural churches, or less frequent attendance by working people. Let’s be pragmatic.
  • Yes, we've found that late Saturday afternoon (530pm) is a good time for our monthly version of 'Messy Church', though we'd like more patents/carers to come along...

    Unfortunately, we can't really commit to any regular weekday services at the moment, but there does seem to be a desire to move towards a single midday Eucharist.

    This would suit older people, parents coming or going to and from the Nursery in the church hall, and one or two others taking a lunch break.

    Realistically, this would be something for a new priest-in-charge (hopefully in the autumn) to establish.

    IJ
  • TomM wrote: »
    The possible convenience of changing when principal liturgies are should be held against the long standing theological reason the Church assembles on a Sunday: as the Evangelists put it, 'Early on the first day of the week, whilst it was still dark...' It is not for convenience that the Church chooses Sunday but because it is the Day of Resurrection.

    There is rather more to the Christian assembly than just when it is convenient for people to turn up.

    I agree and would be very unhappy if the main act of worship at a church or within a group of parishes was moved to a day other than Sunday. This was one of my deep objections to the whole "Willow Creek" movement of some years ago, at least as it was explained by people seeking to introduce it to the UK. What was being presented then was the idea that Sunday morning would be "seeker" events, and that the main worship for "believers" would be in the middle of the week.

    But we have to acknowledge that, from some people, Sundays are no longer the days when they can attend church. We need to create alternative possibilities, whilst (hopefully) keeping Sunday as the "key" time for worship.

    (I was recently contacted by a woman who works every Sunday and wanted to find a church that could offer things in the middle of the week. I informed her of the Ladies Bible Study group and other things we could offer. I was shocked to find out from her that she had contacted a number of churches in the area and we were the only church to respond. She is now (hopefully) going to come to some of our midweek activities. Her opinion of the other churches in the area is not fit to print!)

  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    (Tangent)
    I've been ignored after emailing churches to see what mid-week events they have, and if a non-Catholic or non-whatever, would be welcomed. It is off-putting to be ignored. Thankfully those are few and far between.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Puzzler wrote: »
    We are currently on holiday in such an area, and the priest at the 11am service had driven about 12 miles over hills and hairpin bends to reach us.
    And 12 miles is a long way, you mean? A 20 minute car ride is long? One of my parishes is 25-26 miles away. We manage fine.
  • kmannkmann Shipmate
    Yes, we've found that late Saturday afternoon (530pm) is a good time for our monthly version of 'Messy Church', though we'd like more patents/carers to come along...
    But that is still liturgically Sunday.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    kmann wrote: »
    Puzzler wrote: »
    We are currently on holiday in such an area, and the priest at the 11am service had driven about 12 miles over hills and hairpin bends to reach us.
    And 12 miles is a long way, you mean? A 20 minute car ride is long? One of my parishes is 25-26 miles away. We manage fine.

    Quite easily, I'd imagine. Distances such as that - or even up to 60 km are very common here. At one stage, Wentworth church was serviced by a priest who flew from Adelaide to Broken Hill then drove the 270 or so km to Wentworth, about 3 hours at the speed limit (very strictly enforced). Now a priest drives from Mildura, in a different State and diocese, but only a bit over a half hour's driving.

    My favourite is Wanaaring , an outreach church in Bourke parish. Services are monthly. While it's a bit under 200km away, the condition of the road means that driving takes anywhere from 3 to 6 hours depending on the road condition and the vehicle you're in. A flight is the only realistic method, but of course only a light plane. Given the parlous state of the finances in Bathurst diocese, there's precious little money to hire a plane for the flight. Another outreach church is at Weilmoringle, which again is about 200 km and takes about 3 1/2 hours. Services there are on demand.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    kmann wrote: »
    Yes, we've found that late Saturday afternoon (530pm) is a good time for our monthly version of 'Messy Church', though we'd like more parents/carers to come along...
    But that is still liturgically Sunday.

    Yes, it is, I suppose, though we don't treat it as a sort of Vigil Mass a la Roman Catholic Church - OTOH, that might be an idea for the future...

    Not sure what point you're making - my point was that this is a good time for us. Other churches, of course, will find that a similar event on a Sunday afternoon, or a weekday (after school) suits them best.

    BTW, I don't think it's particularly helpful for comparisons to be made regarding distances between churches in different countries. In the UK, 12 miles of country roads (possibly steep, narrow, winding, and infested with Idiot Drivers) can be quite a challenge, especially with a deadline (no pun intended) to meet.

    IIRC, a benefice in the next Diocese used to schedule its Sunday services for 930am, 11am, 3pm, and 630pm (there were four churches then - they've since added two more, so I dunno what the schedule is now). The distances between them are not that enormous, so the priest at least had time for lunch and tea!

    IJ


  • I would add that, when I lived in Suffolk, 20 miles was nothing. But 20 miles across London was a major trek, unless one could use the Tube.
  • Were you travelling those 20 miles in Suffolk between services at different churches, BT? If so, it still seems a fair distance to have to go - point taken about crossing London, of course!

    IJ
  • TomMTomM Shipmate Posts: 15
    I agree and would be very unhappy if the main act of worship at a church or within a group of parishes was moved to a day other than Sunday. This was one of my deep objections to the whole "Willow Creek" movement of some years ago, at least as it was explained by people seeking to introduce it to the UK. What was being presented then was the idea that Sunday morning would be "seeker" events, and that the main worship for "believers" would be in the middle of the week.

    But we have to acknowledge that, from some people, Sundays are no longer the days when they can attend church. We need to create alternative possibilities, whilst (hopefully) keeping Sunday as the "key" time for worship.

    Oh indeed. In some ways, I'm just labouring the point that Sunday is not arbitrary, and we need to consider how best to preserve that sense of time being structured. We cannot insist on uniformity, but we might be able to encourage.

  • You can perhaps imagine the trouble our local Church of Scotland has covering services in a vacancy when it's 4 hours by boat to the mainland and there is only one boat a day.
  • Were you travelling those 20 miles in Suffolk between services at different churches, BT?
    No, I was thinking of going to meetings etc. My own church (singular) was in Ipswich though I sometimes conducted worship elsewhere. Our organist/choirmaster had to make a 50-mile round trip each Friday and Sunday. Although it was mostly on a main road, the evening trip got him down in the winter.

  • You can perhaps imagine the trouble our local Church of Scotland has covering services in a vacancy when it's 4 hours by boat to the mainland and there is only one boat a day.
    Indeed.

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    There comes a point when expecting people to commute too far for church starts to become an environmental issue, the petrol mile equivalent of air miles.

    Perhaps there is something to be said for the Techum Shabbat.
  • My late Godfather was for a time PP of Carnarvon in Western Australia: his parish was larger than Wales and included places like Denham (aka Shark Bay) Useless Loop, Gascoyne Junction, etc. He used to visit the more far-flung parts of his parish by hitching a ride with the Flying Doctor Service.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    My late Godfather was for a time PP of Carnarvon in Western Australia: his parish was larger than Wales and included places like Denham (aka Shark Bay) Useless Loop, Gascoyne Junction, etc. He used to visit the more far-flung parts of his parish by hitching a ride with the Flying Doctor Service.

    Yes - in area, a huge diocese of very large parishes. Alas, the diocese is now very Sydney in outlook, with the diocesan not acknowledging the proper consecration of the Metropolitan - a woman. Not sure if he denies her ordination, but he probably does.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    There comes a point when expecting people to commute too far for church starts to become an environmental issue, the petrol mile equivalent of air miles..
    There is also something about having churches rooted in their communities. However people do have cars and are often drawn to the "happening" (or "good choral tradition" or "Bible-based preaching" or "excellent liturgy" etc. - YMMV) church 10 miles away rather than the "dull" local one.

  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Does +++Justin, Cantuar have only ONE cope?
    For the Royal Christening yesterday he wore the same horrid 1970's-style lemon yellow-aqua-purple "creation" as he wore for his ordination and for the Royal Wedding of Prince Harry and his bride
  • Apparently it's the Cundy cope (Church Times article) made for a friend and colleague
  • GalilitGalilit Shipmate
    Thanks. I think I recall this being reported when he was ordained ABC.
    I didnt like it then and I still don't. The two big purple buttons on the morse remind me of Dalek eyes (and I had a black and white tv then!)
  • LaudableLaudable Shipmate
    I agree that the cope is ugly, as is the mitre. The morse is much older, and dates at least from the time of Archbishop Lang: the two jewels are cabochon garnets (or amethysts - I can't remember which). They appear less prominent when they are set against a formal brocade/damask.
  • I've always thought that (generally speaking) the cope is a most awkward-looking vestment, though I've never had occasion to wear one myself. Our Cathedral, however, has a very nice set of cream/gold festal copes for the Chapter, and also a blue (!) set for Advent, which appear to be much lighter and more free-flowing.

    These ghastly multi-coloured things are, OTOH, An Abomination Unto The Lord.

    IJ
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    They're over-elaborate overcoats - suitable for lay cantors, perhaps.
Sign In or Register to comment.