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God’s Body

DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
edited June 2022 in Kerygmania
I am currently listening to this podcast on the body of God. (This is from the The Ancient’s podcast on History Hit). It is interesting in that it’s historians talking about a lot of material drawn from the bible.

One thing that struck me - that I’d never heard of before, is the blurb from the History Hit site, that states that Yahweh was once believed to be one of the seventy children of El.

I wondered if anyone else would be interested in listening to the podcast and discussing the argument being presented.

Comments

  • Is the claim about Yahweh and El based on some kind of document?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 2022
    Multiple ancient sources I think, having listened to the whole podcast now - they cite various parts of the bible but also archeological finds and a body of historical research on cultures of the time.

    The author talks about the changes in perceptions of Yahweh’s body over his “career”. Stating as part of a pantheon to a monotheistic and ultimately incorporeal understanding.

    She notes that typical representations of a deity early on would have had him as a large, fit, young man with glowing reddish skin with black hair and a beard. Whilst later perception of white hair and beard would mean taking on the characteristics originally ascribed to El. She argues a lot of what we tend to think of as figurative language about God, where he might dwell or place his feet - how he might reach out his arm, would have been understood as literal some thousands of years ago and that that is consistent with cultural understandings of the nature godhood at the time.

    She cites Ezekiel quite a lot and there is a strikingly uncomfortable discussion of the sexuality of Yahweh and she notes that a prophet has a vision that includes observing his genitalia and why that would have been significant in ancient cultures.

    (ETA it is basically a historian being interviewed about a book she has just written on the subject - presumably the book itself would contain references / citations. Professor Francesca Stavrakopoulou: 'God: an Anatomy')
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Looked on Amazon - this is a statement which I presume is on the back of the book jacket:
    Three thousand years ago, in the Southwest Asian lands we now call Israel and Palestine, a group of people worshipped a complex pantheon of deities, led by a father god called El. El had 70 children, who were gods in their own right. One of them was a minor storm deity, known as Yahweh. Yahweh had a body, a wife, offspring and colleagues. He fought monsters and mortals. He gorged on food and wine, wrote books and took walks and naps. But he would become something far larger and far more abstract: the God of the great monotheistic religions.
  • Yes but I would like to know what ancient manuscript are they basing this on? This sounds an awful lot like "ancient aliens" material.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    She's much better than that. Exeter University and BBC2 say it all.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    edited June 2022
    Keep getting server errors on the link. Another plus is, of course, Dan Snow. I'd like to see the dots joined up from El to Yahweh as his son. Wiki doesn't do that:
    The origins of his worship reach at least to the early Iron Age, and likely to the Late Bronze Age if not somewhat earlier. In the oldest biblical literature he possesses attributes typically ascribed to weather and war deities, fructifying the land and leading the heavenly army against Israel's enemies. Most scholars are of the view that at that time the Israelites were polytheistic and worshipped him alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal. ... According to other scholars, however, the exclusive worship of Yahweh was widespread before the Babylonian exile, and such Israelite monolatry may have even existed before the rise of the united monarchy. In Iron Age I, Yahweh's cult center appears to have been Shiloh.
    ...
    Late Bronze Age origins (1550–1200 BCE)

    Scholars disagree as to the origins of the worship of the god Yahweh. The oldest plausible occurrence of his name is in the phrase "Shasu of Yhw" (Egyptian: 𓇌𓉔𓍯𓅱 yhwꜣw) in an Egyptian inscription from the time of Amenhotep III (1402–1363 BCE), the Shasu being nomads from Midian and Edom in northern Arabia and Yhw being a place-name. The current consensus is therefore that Yahweh was a "divine warrior from the southern region associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman". This raises the question of how Yahweh came to be worshipped further north. An answer many scholars consider plausible is the Kenite hypothesis, which holds that traders brought Yahweh to Israel along the caravan routes between Egypt and Canaan. This ties together various points of data, such as the absence of Yahweh from Canaan, his links with Edom and Midian in the biblical stories, and the Kenite or Midianite ties of Moses, but its major weaknesses are that the majority of Israelites were firmly rooted in Canaan, and doubts as to the historicity of Moses. If the Kenite hypothesis is to be maintained without accepting some form of the Moses tradition, then it must be assumed that the Israelites encountered Yahweh (and the Midianites/Kenites) inside Israel.

    The article uncontroversially continues with the evolution of Yahweh among Canaanites hiving themselves off as Israel, from polytheism through henotheism, monolatry to monotheism,

    Judges 5:4-5 Yahweh, when you went out of Seir,
    when you marched out of the field of Edom,
    the earth trembled, the sky also dropped.
    Yes, the clouds dropped water.
    The mountains quaked at Yahweh’s presence,
    even Sinai at the presence of Yahweh, the God of Israel.

    So, which son of Canaanite El did Edomite Yahweh blur with and devour his adopting father?
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Another plus is, of course, Dan Snow. I'd like to see the dots joined up from El to Yahweh as his son.

    I guess Peter Snow could be El and Dan Snow could be Yah. Kind of like Dick and Barry van Dyke in Diagnosis Murder.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    'sabit binitarian ennit?
  • NessymonsterNessymonster Shipmate Posts: 1
    As a counterpoint to the original post (I hope this is alright, this is my inaugural forum post) I once heard a podcast, which was a lot longer (almost 2 hrs), and sounds more in depth (haven't listened to this one/haven't decided if it's worth my time to listen). Granted, there's a lot of giggling, and the priests who host the podcast are total nerds, and it's great!

    The podcast episode is also titled "God's Body" which is produced by Ancient Faith Radio (link below).

    The whole premise is that a body is not actually the physical stuff (hands, eyes, intestines, brain). Rather, our body is a nexus of potentialities. In the ancient world, when people talked about eyes, they weren't talking about gushy orbs in their skulls. They were talking about the power of sight. Ones feet were the capacity for movement. One's right arm is in regards to one's strength. Eyes are instruments for sight. Feet are instruments for movement. And so on.

    But, this doesn't mean that those instruments are required for hearing, and such.

    And this is related in part--along with the fact that we are made in the image of God--that man does not anthropomorphize God in the Bible, rather man "Theomorphizes" man (another point made in this podcast).

    There's so much more to this. But it sounds like the take that the podcast in the OP takes a lot of liberties, and makes a lot of connections between ancient Mesopotamian religion and early Israelites spirituality.


    https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/gods_body

    As an aside, I was super confused when I originally saw this thread, because I thought everyone was talking about this podcast, and I thought I was remembering something completely different from the podcast. Turns out, different podcast, same title.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    That’s interesting, I’ll have a listen. The podcast I originally linked to is less in depth because they are interviewing an author about her book - I’ve bought the audiobook, but it’s 16hrs so it’ll be a while before I report back !
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    Hello and welcome, @Nessymonster

    It definitely makes sense that as well as (any) anthropomising of deities, there is also for want of a better word anthropomising of abstract words and concepts (e.g. good in the eyes of, facing, etc...) some of which we've probably still got today, some we can hide behind Greek/Latin.

    --i haven't really sorted my views.

    Obviously,you can't go too far without noting there's the incarnation.

    The writers give Moses and the leaders a direct face to face encounter.

    There are a few other 'messenger in human form' encounters (e.g with. Abraham and Gideon). Which to me seem different, but I'll have to try rereading them with a different perspective.

    Daniel and Revelation have very anthropolised God's, but come from the opposite side of scripture.

    There's also a fair bit of language that is to some extent semi-abstract. Something like the "lord stretching his hands to strike Egypt", must to some extent be recognising something 'non physical', even if reflecting a corresponding action on a deity body.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 2022
    I’m listening quite slowly to the book the podcast I mentioned in the op is based on. Which brings me to a Kerygical thing. I’m going to try to précis her argument.

    Argument

    In the Levant there was a pantheon ruled over by El & his wife Asherah who had “seventy” (ie many) sons (sons & daughters). Different places and peoples had different ones as patrons. (The author often cites texts from Urgaritt in support of this, and inscriptions from various ancient ruined temples.)

    Originally the Judhites worshipped El, who is in announced in the bible as El Shaddai - which is often translated as God Almighty. But in fact, would be better translated as High God. Later, Yahweh a storm God, became patron of Israel and Judah became more and more prominent - in a later verse in the bible when Yahweh says to the prophet I am Yahweh who announced myself to the patriarchs as El Shaddai, what we are seeing is an attempt to retrofit Yahweh into El’s persona to reflect political and social changes in worship.

    The author notes that at one point Yahweh was worshipped with his wife, Asherah (taken on from El) and there are some 800BCE inscriptions to “Yaweh & his Asherah”.

    I apologise if my anglicised spellings are all over the place. I have never read the bible in any language other than English, (and not all of it). Is this change from referring to God as El Shaddai to Yaweh across the Old Testament true, and do you think it bears the weight of this interpretation ?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 2022
    Just to add, Wikipedia’s page on Asherah says this in passing:
    Between the tenth century BC and the beginning of their Babylonian exile in 586 BC, polytheism was normal throughout Israel. Worship solely of Yahweh became established only after the exile, and possibly, only as late as the time of the Maccabees (2nd century BC). That is when monotheism became universal among the Jews. Some biblical scholars believe that Asherah at one time was worshipped as the consort of Yahweh, the national god of Israel.

    There are references to the worship of numerous deities throughout the Books of Kings: Solomon builds temples to many deities and Josiah is reported as cutting down the statues of Asherah in the temple Solomon built for Yahweh (2 Kings 23:14). Josiah's grandfather Manasseh had erected one such statue (2 Kings 21:7).
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    It all just gives the lie to my decades of fundamentalism, to Evangelicalism, the historical-grammatical method, to progressive revelation. A lie that Jesus couldn't not believe.
  • In the Levant there was a pantheon ruled over by El & his wife Asherah who had “seventy” (ie many) sons (sons & daughters). Different places and peoples had different ones as patrons. (The author often cites texts from Urgaritt in support of this, and inscriptions from various ancient ruined temples.)

    Originally the Judhites worshipped El, who is in announced in the bible as El Shaddai - which is often translated as God Almighty. But in fact, would be better translated as High God.
    This is reflected in a number of places in the Torah. In Genesis 10, we get the 70 nations descended from Noah. In Moses’s song in Deuteronomy 32:8–9, we get:
    When the Most High (Elyon) apportioned the nations,
    when he divided humankind,
    he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
    according to the number of the gods;
    the LORD’s (Yahweh’s) own portion was his people,
    Jacob his allotted share.
    Here “the Most High” and Yahweh can be read as the same being or as different beings.

    For my money, what is seen in the prophets and elsewhere in the OT isn’t so much an attempt to “retrofit” Yahweh to the role of El; at least I wouldn’t describe it that way. It makes perfect sense to me that (1) Israel’s understanding of God and/or (2) God’s revelation of Godself to Israel (take your pick) was rooted in and developed within the language and concepts and constructs of the wider culture in which Israel moved. That dynamic of Israel’s beliefs growing out of the general mythology of the region is reflected in a number of places in the OT, most noticeably perhaps in the first 10 chapters of Genesis, and often evidences some twist or distinction, as though Israel’s version is in a sort of conversation with the versions of surrounding societies.

    Rather than describing it as “retrofitting,” I’d probably say that in the OT, we can discern traces of Israel’s move from belief in their tribal god to a belief that that tribal god was in fact the only God.

  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    My understanding is as @Doublethink's. Mesopotamian El became paralleled in Arabian desert storm god Yahweh, even to having the same consort, who was purged monotheistically. That monethism was then retrofitted on to El:

    Exodus 6:2 God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord (Yahweh). 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but by my name the Lord (Yahweh) I did not make myself fully known to them.

    As @Doublethink alluded.
  • Does anyone here think God spoke, or still speaks, with an audible voice? You know, like in Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy when the Vogon constructor fleet announces that the earth is to be demolished to make way for a space highway.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Do you mean audible to the target listener, or audible like a stereo to anyone close enough ?
  • Merry VoleMerry Vole Shipmate
    edited April 2023
    Well either, but such that the hearer(s) could say 'the voice was, eg, male or female and with a particular accent speaking slowly or quickly etc -that I could, if I was good at that sort of thing (and didn't think it disrespectful), imitate. '
    And even which language was being spoken -if the hearer knew more than one language.
  • The biblical text is entirely post-hoc, written at a time when the relevant people, however they are defined, were characteristically monotheistic. As such, it is only accidentally useful in understanding the origins of monotheism, and mostly downright unhelpful, because it will inevitably present monotheism as the only version that ever existed, which is simply not the case. As a matter of simple fact, they were polytheistic originally, and this structure evolved. Other witnesses are required to see this happen.
  • Merry Vole wrote: »
    Well either, but such that the hearer(s) could say 'the voice was, eg, male or female and with a particular accent speaking slowly or quickly etc -that I could, if I was good at that sort of thing (and didn't think it disrespectful), imitate. '
    And even which language was being spoken -if the hearer knew more than one language.

    Anecdotes are no evidence, but for what it's worth. I've "heard" that voice maybe four, five times. In both cases nobody around me would have heard it (though Mr Lamb did hear it at the same time in one case, saying the same thing). It was utterly clear, utterly concise, unmistakeable as to its meaning, and to me at least, unmistakeable that it was NOT ME speaking--I mean, it was not an inner voice, of the sort that reminds me to take out the trash, and not to say X to Y. It was unmistakeably from elsewhere.
    In my case it was in English on two occasions--I can quote the words. (I have multiple languages.) The other two cases it was a set of instructions (Go here, takes this, do such and such when you get there). I don't recall that being so much in a particular set of words, but that might be because I tend to think pictorially, and so it was the usual mishmash of images and words (I think).
    On the male/female thing--it wasn't like I was noticing timbre and so forth. But then, I don't pay a lot of attention to gender anyway. It was utterly clear, calm, straightforward and authoritative. On one occasion it included a bit of exasperation. On another there was the impression of laughter.

    For what it's worth.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    It's courageous. You'll be among the first to know when it happens to me.
  • WandererWanderer Shipmate
    I have a pre/during birth memory, which is the only time I "heard" from Him. From behind my left shoulder, definitely male, adult, very clear words about what I needed to do but no more commanding than any benevolent adult would be to a child: I had no doubt that what he was saying was correct but it was still entirely my decision as to whether I followed His instructions.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Several years ago, I saw a picture of a very old man sitting on a curb. His feet were wrapped in clothe. He had a small bowl of what looked like soup. He looked cold. That picture reminded me of God. As Jesus said, "When you have done this to least of my brothers, you have done this to me."
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    I can't think of a better word than perfect @Gramps49. Although Evangelicals and the like twist this to mean it's about denominational brethren.
  • TurquoiseTasticTurquoiseTastic Kerygmania Host
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Although Evangelicals and the like twist this to mean it's about denominational brethren.

    I would say this is not only a massive generalisation but an incorrect one. I have never heard this assertion from an Evangelical pulpit - which is not to say it never happens, but suggests it might not be quite as rife as you imply.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Although Evangelicals and the like twist this to mean it's about denominational brethren.

    I would say this is not only a massive generalisation but an incorrect one. I have never heard this assertion from an Evangelical pulpit - which is not to say it never happens, but suggests it might not be quite as rife as you imply.

    Oh you'l never hear it from the pulpit, like the unspoken damnationism that cannot be challenged either. That it's a subset of. It's rife.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 2023
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Although Evangelicals and the like twist this to mean it's about denominational brethren.

    I would say this is not only a massive generalisation but an incorrect one. I have never heard this assertion from an Evangelical pulpit - which is not to say it never happens, but suggests it might not be quite as rife as you imply.

    I have heard it. The claim is that by "My Brethren" Jesus means Christians, not people in general.

    There's a strand within some popular evangelism that believes that words must mean the same thing in the Bible wherever they occur.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    I've definitely heard or read it somewhere. Though pretty sure it's been second hand (like here) or speculative (To be fair, it is a holy week parable) or from action.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    jay_emm wrote: »
    I've definitely heard or read it somewhere. Though pretty sure it's been second hand (like here) or speculative (To be fair, it is a holy week parable) or from action.

    Action? What do you mean by that in this context?
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    edited April 2023
    KarlLB wrote:
    Action? What do you mean by that in this context?
    When the meaning of the parable isn't explicitly referred too. But there's a clear distinction between when it's alluded to or who is actually fed (which in general has an aspect of windows onto people's souls, and individual issues are complicated, but there's enough times when its clear 'those people' are very much outside 'these people')
  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    As (a) our scripture was written over a substantial amount of time (centuries) and (b) words do tend to change meanings over time (at least in most languages), it seems unreasonable to claim that a given word must have exactly the same meaning throughout the Bible.
  • @Wanderer , what is a 'pre/during birth memory'? I'm just curious that's all.
  • WandererWanderer Shipmate
    @Merry Vole I have a memory of being born. I know it sounds crazy.
  • Wanderer wrote: »
    @Merry Vole I have a memory of being born. I know it sounds crazy.

    Thank you. So have you been able to follow His instructions? Were they a blueprint for your life? A vocation?
  • WandererWanderer Shipmate
    Kind of. It was a difficult birth (from my memory and what my mother told me -forceps were used in the end).
    The memory started with a pulsating dark up and to the right of me. I was trying to push forward but every time I seemed to be making progress the pulsating dark pushed me back. I was thinking of giving up when a voice behind my left shoulder said: you need to try.
    I replied: I have tried, but it's hard!
    He said: I know it's hard, but they're waiting for you.
    This convinced me to try again but as I did so something came in and grabbed me and dragged me out of the dark into light and noise. I can still feel my revulsion to the assault on my senses; my first thought when I was out was " if I had known it would be like that I would have stayed in the dark!"
    So advice specific to the moment but also there have been other times in my life when I have needed to try as it has been hard but they have been waiting for me. Also to me the most powerful name of Jesus is Emmanuel as He is with us and He knows that it is hard.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    The title of this topic has reminded me of the novels of The Godhead Trilogy by James Morrow: https://amazon.com/dp/B09PY2VXZJ?binding=paperback&ref=dbs_dp_sirpi

    Book 1: Towing Jehova. "God is dead, and tanker captain Anthony Van Horne (contracted by Raphael) must tow the corpse to the Arctic (to preserve Him from sharks and decomposition). En route Van Horne must also contend with ecological guilt, a militant girlfriend, sabotage both natural and spiritual, and greedy hucksters of oil, condoms, and doubtful ideas.
    Winner of a 1995 World Fantasy Award."

    Book 2: Blameless in Abaddon. "God is a comatose, two-mile-long tourist attraction at a Florida theme park-until a conniving judge decides to put Him on trial in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
    A New York Times Notable Book of the Year."

    Book 3: The Eternal Footman. "With God's skull in orbit, competing with the moon, a plague of "death awareness" spreads across the Western hemisphere. As the United States sinks into apocalypse, two people fight to preserve life and sanity. One is Nora Burkhart, a schoolteacher who will stop at nothing to save her only son, Kevin. The other is the genius sculptor Gerard Korty, who struggles to create a masterwork that will heal the metaphysical wounds of the age."

  • Merry VoleMerry Vole Shipmate
    Have you read these novels? (which, being in a somewhat tame bubble, I've never heard of!)
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    They look essential. On the Morrow!
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    Merry Vole wrote: »
    Have you read these novels? (which, being in a somewhat tame bubble, I've never heard of!)

    I only read the first one over a period of a few months back in the late 1990s, and I don't have a very good memory of it, other than I didn't quit partway through. :smile:

    Indeed, @Martin54 !
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Sounds like a good oath, the subject title. Nearly up there with Hell's Teeth.
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