Slides during worship?

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  • Signaller wrote: »
    It seems strange to me that there was both a printed order of service and words on a screen.
    While the "primary" medium is the screen, one needs a few (large-)printed sheets for those who find it hard to read.

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Of course, a church funeral takes place prior to the committal . . . .
    Committals prior to the church service are not unusual here, at least in some traditions.
    Increasingly, committal followed by funeral seems to becoming common in England. The advantage is that it avoids guests having to hang around for the buffet while the family go to the crematorium. On the other hand I think it's a bit emotionally "harsh" to go straight to the crem. for just a brief service.
    I think we've discussed this before, but here, no one goes to the crem. The typical patterns are:

    (1) Service at the church, funeral home or some other location, followed immediately by committal at the cemetery or columbarium/scattering garden, followed by reception.

    (2) Committal at the cemetery or columbarium/scattering garden, followed—either immediately or within a day or two—by a service at the church, funeral home or some other location, followed by reception.

    (2) Service at the church, funeral home or some other location, followed by reception, with committal/scattering some time in the future. This only happens in cases of cremation,
  • The Order of Service would have become a booklet if it included all the words at the Memorial service. There were eleven hymns, four readings, three prayers, two hymns sung by the choir alone, and the Benediction.

    At my church we have both an order of service which simply lists the hymns/prayers/ title of the sermon etc, and the words to the hymns on a screen. We have large print hymnaries for anyone who has difficulty reading the screen.
  • SignallerSignaller Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    The Order of Service would have become a booklet if it included all the words at the Memorial service. There were eleven hymns, four readings, three prayers, two hymns sung by the choir alone, and the Benediction.

    Thank you. I must admit that eleven hymns would be about eight more than I am used to, but it is wonderful what one learns here about the way things are done in other traditions.
  • We would have five in a standard Sunday service at my church, including one sung during the offering.

    There wasn't a eulogy as such during the Memorial Service, instead each hymn / prayer / reading was introduced with a few words as to why it was important to the deceased, and the way in which it reflected her faith. It was a very moving, and well constructed service.
  • SignallerSignaller Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Signaller wrote: »
    It seems strange to me that there was both a printed order of service and words on a screen.
    While the "primary" medium is the screen, one needs a few (large-)printed sheets for those who find it hard to read.

    While we use words on the screen for some services, at funerals/memorial services the custom now seems to be to project a slide show of pictures of the deceased, happy memories of a full life, on the screen before and after the service.

    Putting the words themselves on the screen for an occasional service would be seen here as not the done thing for various reasons, not the least being (a) that the screen is an ugly intrusion into the building, and (b) that the view of the screen from the side aisles is obstructed by pillars. It's also the case that these services are attended by the demographic that finds it hardest to read screens and doesn't like them anyway.
  • Yes, I've never seen words on as screen at a funeral (but I bet it's been done, somewhere!)
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Yes, I've never seen words on as screen at a funeral (but I bet it's been done, somewhere!)

    It has, all our words and hymns are on the screen for all services, including funerals.

  • Yes, I've never seen words on as screen at a funeral (but I bet it's been done, somewhere!)

    Yep here. I hold my hands up to this grave breach of liturgical etiquette in the interests of saving families a couple of hundred quid
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Yes, I've never seen words on as screen at a funeral (but I bet it's been done, somewhere!)

    My second cousin S. died in 2014 as the result of a motorcycle accident - he was 19.

    His funeral service had, IIRC, orders of service (with hymns/songs printed out), but the church (an open-Evangelical C of E parish, which S. and his family attended regularly) also set up a screen to project the words, and a number of images of S., during the service.

    Given that the church is the size of a young cathedral, and was filled with over 700 peeps (many of them fellow-students), this seemed a sensible way of doing things.

    IJ

  • How did it save them a couple of hundred quid?
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    I presume your question is directed at ExclamationMark?
    :rage:

    If not, it is in exceedingly bad taste.

    IJ
  • Yes, it was a straight forward question to EM. I wasn't commenting on your post at all.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    I'm not EM ... but I'm presuming that the saving came in not having professionally printed Order of Service folders.
  • How did it save them a couple of hundred quid?

    See BT's answer. Some FD's (Funeral Directors) offer printed service sheets as part of a package. The mark up on them is vast - they end up costing more than a pound each. There's much better ways of spending your money.

    OK have a few as memories and for those who can't see a screen but why spend when you don't need to?

    [The whole funeral industry is currently under investigation by the office of fair trading - IMHO its long overdue: the pressure on a bereaved family to go big is immense. I've had it twice recently.

    I get the impression that the stuff I cut out (cars, flowers, service sheets) were big money earners for the FD's by their expressions. Mind you I also questioned the cost of Doctor's certs which caused a few mutterings - it's a done deal at £60 each and a nice earner for a signature and reading a Death Cert - but that's another story and possibly another thread]
  • The funeral I conducted a couple of weeks ago could well have dispensed with service booklets, as all the congregation needed to join in with was a couple of hymns (both of which are in our church's usual hymnbook), and the traditional version of the Lord's Prayer.

    The booklets - very nicely produced, of course, and with some suitable photographs of the deceased at various stages of his long life - were really more like a menu, or programme outline.

    Given the high cost of funerals these days, £200 isn't a huge amount (unless you haven't got it), but I take EM's point regarding the overall expense.

    IJ
  • We did in house service booklets fairly regularly. The funeral directors used to use our CCLI and Calamus licences incorrectly and that was another pain to make sure those hymns were.included in the returns.

    For all doctor's reports the going rate is £60, whatever. I have to pay that amount for a report to claim criminal injuries. Not that the leeches have seen me, it's all been phone calls in, so I'm more than a little concerned that this report is going to be inaccurate.
  • For all doctor's reports the going rate is £60, whatever. I have to pay that amount for a report to claim criminal injuries. Not that the leeches have seen me, it's all been phone calls in, so I'm more than a little concerned that this report is going to be inaccurate.

    There are regulations governing fees in the financial services sector -- a few years ago many of them were removed entirely as a result of the exercise looking at time involved vs amount charged (Nationwide no longer levy a fee, for example, when you repay your mortgage).

    Signing Death Certs is very lucrative for Doctors and is considered a healthy "perk" for Juniors to boost their salary. Time to challenge it particularly when one has no option? A case for the Monopolies Commission I think?

    (By the way, I don't have it in for Doctors - I'm just careful with my pennies and always ask "Why?" It's surprising how often that there's little or nothing to back it up and it's just accepted as the norm).



  • Given the high cost of funerals these days, £200 isn't a huge amount (unless you haven't got it), but I take EM's point regarding the overall expense. IJ
    It depends who you are; if you aren't well off £200 is 2 weeks food for a family of 4.

    Some of the charges are criminal and the mark ups little short of usury or extortion.

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    I know we're getting way off topic, but I'd be interested in pursuing this subject. I agree that funerals are very expensive; I'm also aware on the pressures that family feel (whether from the Companies, relatives or within themselves) to give the deceased "a good send off". People are very reluctant to dispute pricing, or they feel that a lot of the "add-ons" (eg cars) are necessary when they're not.

    What I don't know is this: are the funeral companies making a huge profit? Or are they only making a small one? - in which case making things like service sheets cheaper would have to be covered by increased prices elsewhere. And have prices risen disproportionately since local family-run firms were, in so many cases, bought out by the big combines?

    There is also the suggestion that Councils have increased their crematoria fees to offset cuts to ther biudget: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/10/soaring-crematorium-fees-private-sector-rivals.

    It strikes me that the business is a bit like running a restaurant, where the headline price for a main course can be quite low but which makes money from the drinks, desserts, side orders, bread etc.
  • Bear in that the local authority pays around £1300 for a basic funeral if you have no money or assets. The FD's make a small profit on this -- imagine the profit on the average cost of £3500.

    Recently I have seen quotations for basic costs (no cars, coffin, doctors, ministers etc - being the FD's fees), as £1800 Cheltenham and £1500 Cambridge. A very basic coffin costs around £80 trade price of the net. It is retailed at minimum £200 to a family.

    You're right BT, much is made on extras e.g. flowers and post funeral food and drink.

    Crem fees vary: it's cheaper if you go early or late. It's about 20% higher around lunchtime.

    Costs of celebrants vary - the usual fee for ministers is £100 ish. I've seen a civil celebrant charge of £240. I've never charged.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth Mystery Worship Editor
    edited June 2018
    After my mother died, my father took out a prepaid funeral plan for himself. To make a long story short, when he died, the funeral director saw to it that every penny in the plan was spent, that there was nothing left to refund to us. In fact, we were about 50 cents short, which the director "generously" wrote off.

    I will say, though, that given the difficulties involved in arranging for my father's body to be transported from Arizona to New York (again a long story, and I'll spare you -- you can read about it upthread if you really want to), he earned every penny.
  • What I don't know is this: are the funeral companies making a huge profit? Or are they only making a small one? - in which case making things like service sheets cheaper would have to be covered by increased prices elsewhere. And have prices risen disproportionately since local family-run firms were, in so many cases, bought out by the big combines?
    large profits - a classic lowish turnover high profit margin business.

    Yes the charges have increased exponentially with buyouts. That's despite the economies this brings (e.g the Coop or whatever they call themselves now have massive regional mortuaries).

    From what I see and hear, funerals have become the new weddings in terms of bolt ons with a massive drift from the real purpose

  • Given the high cost of funerals these days, £200 isn't a huge amount (unless you haven't got it), but I take EM's point regarding the overall expense. IJ
    It depends who you are; if you aren't well off £200 is 2 weeks food for a family of 4.

    Some of the charges are criminal and the mark ups little short of usury or extortion.

    I entirely agree. It's not unknown for families in our parish to resort to the local Foodbank - God alone knows how they'd cope with the cost of a funeral! Hopefully, it's unlikely that such a family would have to foot the entire bill.

    Apologies for prolonging the tangent...

    BTW, the standard C of E fee for a funeral service in church is £190, plus an extra few quid if burial or committal follow shortly afterwards. One of the Co-Op staff dealing with the funeral I mentioned earlier was most surprised to learn that that money went to the parish, not to me, and that my services were given for free.

    IJ

  • [From what I see and hear, funerals have become the new weddings in terms of bolt ons with a massive drift from the real purpose
    Drifting even further from the OP … If people don’t have the confidence in the Life to Come as was once commonplace, it becomes necessary to have as rich and significant earthly end-of-life commemoration as possible.

    Or else people have just been sucked in by commercialism and by “thinking what people will say” if they deviate from the cultural norm.

  • [From what I see and hear, funerals have become the new weddings in terms of bolt ons with a massive drift from the real purpose
    Drifting even further from the OP … If people don’t have the confidence in the Life to Come as was once commonplace, it becomes necessary to have as rich and significant earthly end-of-life commemoration as possible.

    Or else people have just been sucked in by commercialism and by “thinking what people will say” if they deviate from the cultural norm.
    Not sure it's any of them tbh BT. I think it's any opportunity for a party and if, I am really honest, a chance to show off your project management skills

  • Funeral directors in Aberdeen do basic stillbirth funerals for free. We wanted a very basic funeral because I had just given birth and wasn't physically up to much. Initial meeting at the funeral director's office, basic white coffin, a room in the funeral parlour for visiting, transporting the coffin to our house (we had the funeral service in our living room), transporting the coffin to the cemetery, all free, and very sympathetic and respectful. Our minister carried out the service for free, we paid for a wreath, and small memorial stone, and that was it.

    I think many do children's funerals for cost price, but I'm not sure about that.
  • This is what the Co-op say: https://tinyurl.com/ycqsk6my
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Locally to here, funeral directors seem quite likely to waive their fees for the death of a child.
  • Here in Calif the fees are astronomical. They are all negotiable, so a knowing and able relative can easily cut them in half. Some are just plain ridiculous. My mother's funeral was in the church where she was a member and elder for 30 some years (free)-- but of course, the funeral home kept pushing to have it in their chapel (thousands $) because it's "so convenient". We did have a small graveside service at the cemetery. One of the many ridiculous charges we were offered was to park at the chapel we're not using and ride to the gravesite (about 20 feet away) in a limo for an extra $200. We chose to drive our own cars and park by the gravesite (graveside was only close family-- about 15 people, 3-4 cars).

    But as a pastor I see far too many bereaved families just at sea for the whole thing, lost in their own grief, and entirely vulnerable to the "kindly" funeral directors who offer the whole package deal with the implication this was easier and the most respectful option. To cut it down to a reasonable amount you have to be willing to go line by line through each item in the "package".
  • This is what the Co-op say: https://tinyurl.com/ycqsk6my

    Thanks for that, BT. I had a feeling that at least one or two companies carried out 'free' funerals for smaller children, but I see that the Co-Op apply this to youngsters up to the age of 18. I daresay there are others.

    If I were to officiate at such a funeral, I would ask our PCC for permission to waive the church fee (I don't claim expenses for myself, in any case).

    IJ

  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I have been to two family funerals where the burial took place privately, before returning to church for a service of thanksgiving.
    Also to two services as a friend where I was not invited to the burial, which had already happened earlier that day.
    In all four instances the deceased were committed Christians, three of them elderly, and the services were able to focus on a life well lived.
    One of them included slides of the deceased over a number of years, showing many facets of his long life of love, generosity and laughter. Possibly the best service I have ever attended, but this man was exceptional in every way.

  • All FD's locally waive the fees for stillbirths and children
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    The nationally binding Parochial Fees Order (Church of England) states that, “No fee is payable in respect of a burial of a still-born infant, or for the funeral or burial of a person dying within sixteen years after birth.” A
    minister may exercise discretion for other circumstances.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    BroJames wrote: »
    The nationally binding Parochial Fees Order (Church of England) states that, “No fee is payable in respect of a burial of a still-born infant, or for the funeral or burial of a person dying within sixteen years after birth.” A
    minister may exercise discretion for other circumstances.

    Thanks - I wasn't aware of that. The Fees Notice is on our Sacristy noticeboard, but the tiny print is not that easy for my old eyes to read!

    Small comfort for a family bereft of someone so young, but a slight relief, perhaps, nevertheless, IYSWIM.

    IJ

  • Hmmm ... Something I'm going to have to plan for when Mrs Gamaliel's cancer treatment eventually fails to keep a lid on it. Unless I'm run over by a bus first.
  • I don't believe that's the case in the U.S. -- do any American Shipmates know? I'm accustomed to seeing people (usually teenagers) standing on street corners or holding car washes to raise money for funerals (or at least that's what they're saying it's for. Go Fund Me accounts are also becoming popular to pay for funeral expenses.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    I don't believe that's the case in the U.S. -- do any American Shipmates know? I'm accustomed to seeing people (usually teenagers) standing on street corners or holding car washes to raise money for funerals (or at least that's what they're saying it's for. Go Fund Me accounts are also becoming popular to pay for funeral expenses.
    I think the fees @Bishops Finger and @BroJames are talking about are fees charged by a church. When I see the occasional fundraiser for funeral expenses, it’s for other expenses—coffin, burial place, etc.

    Most churches I know of around here don't charge any fees for funerals. Funeral homes, on the other hand, . . . .

  • Hmmm ... Something I'm going to have to plan for when Mrs Gamaliel's cancer treatment eventually fails to keep a lid on it. Unless I'm run over by a bus first.

    Remembering you in prayer *votive*

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    I don't believe that's the case in the U.S. -- do any American Shipmates know? I'm accustomed to seeing people (usually teenagers) standing on street corners or holding car washes to raise money for funerals (or at least that's what they're saying it's for. Go Fund Me accounts are also becoming popular to pay for funeral expenses.
    I think the fees @Bishops Finger and @BroJames are talking about are fees charged by a church. When I see the occasional fundraiser for funeral expenses, it’s for other expenses—coffin, burial place, etc.

    Most churches I know of around here don't charge any fees for funerals. Funeral homes, on the other hand, . . . .

    Yes, we were talking about the church fees, which, as far as the C of E is concerned, are fixed. As you see, however, there is discretion to waive them under certain circumstances.

    IJ
  • I use them at my church. I personally make sermon illustrations usually of things I'm trying to describe that are hard to imagine.

    I think this should be done in good taste and in moderation. As has been observed already it can, like anything else, get out of hand.
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