Kerygmania: In the image of God

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  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Israel didn't pierce Jesus. I don't regard this as an instance of the fingerpost:

    Zechariah 12 King James Version (KJV)

    12 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

    3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

    4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

    5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.

    6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

    7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

    8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

    12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

    13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

    14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

    Not exactly, unequivocally clear is it?

    Proof texting out of context with total ignorance of the original writers' evanescent intent was good enough for Jesus and the apostles, it was the only hermeneutic they could have possibly known. They couldn't have not known it. They were all right for the wrong reason - they did not think as we do. They could not. Starting with Jesus who saw Himself clearly in the OT by the age of 12. Whether He was there or not. He was right despite His hermeneutic. He was right in, because, He was the divine incarnate. As He kept demonstrating. So I am given to believe, I believe, by the Spirit. If I didn't believe that, there is nothing in these texts that could reverse the process. If there is any inspiration in the texts - which I can't see unless I squint, it's because Jesus is Messiah. But there doesn't have to be. He's still the Messiah. I believe Him. Just. I believe His claim because I believe His story, what He said, what He did, over a thousand days, even though it is tenuously recorded.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    Martin54: Proof texting out of context with total ignorance of the original writers' evanescent intent was good enough for Jesus and the apostles, it was the only hermeneutic they could have possibly known
    I agree with this. The nature of prophecy is that God is often speaking through blokes who do not have insight into what they are saying. It is Jesus whose life and actions give them meaning.

    There are enough prophecies from disparate sources, that Jesus fulfilled in his life, to establish that God Did in fact bits predict and enact a script of his choosing..if you care to accept it.

    Another would be from Gen 49. “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah till Shiloh come.” Here you have an indication that the rabbis should have recognised. They couldn’t crucify Jesus as the sceptre, the right to execute, was gone.

    Regarding the piercing, it is the act that gives it credence. The approval of it from the Jewish leaders makes them equally responsible. Gentile hands crucified Jesus but Jewish voices called for it.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    One of an infinite variety of hammering pegs in to holes regardless in both cases.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    One of an infinite variety of hammering pegs in to holes regardless in both cases.
    But in the cases of messianic prophecy there are lots of fulfilling events in Jesus’ life. The pegs are not humanly manipulated to fit the holes but divinely so and this authenticates the scriptures as a divine message.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Only if you use the hermeneutics of two thousand years ago. As you do. I can't.
  • AnselmAnselm Shipmate Posts: 11
    Martin54 wrote: »
    What?
    Was that me? It was me, wasn't it?
    Damn
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Aye. Why damn?
  • RdrEmCofERdrEmCofE Shipmate
    edited July 2018
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Jesus kept to the script. Proves nowt. Not that there's any prophecy about thirty pieces of silver as the price of Messiah's betrayal of course. There couldn't be after all could there?

    Zech.11:12-13? Correction : Sorry didn't see the previous upline comments.
  • RdrEmCofERdrEmCofE Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Yes I know it was MPaul. What does it have to do with anything? And where are those other instances of the fingerpost? Who wrote them? When? That no faith is required?

    I have long time thought Jesus of Nazareth took a huge risk of none of his carefully contrived attempts to fulfill OT prophesy coming actually 'to pass', when he handed the whole handling of his arrest, trial, death and subsequent resting place, entirely to others over who he had no control whatever.

    I don't think it is possible to prove that these things were either pre-ordained predictions, post realised discoveries, or concocted to make the story more convincing, as the disciples scanned the scriptures for an explanation of the disaster their cause had suffered or the victory of Christ's resurrection, or the need to sit down, make sense of it all and write a gospel.

    Not possible to prove anything either way Martin. Requires faith.
  • RdrEmCofERdrEmCofE Shipmate
    @Martin54 Just realized I was only on page one of the thread. I have been answering last years questions. Sorry. :blush:
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    RdrEmCofE wrote: »
    @Martin54 Just realized I was only on page one of the thread. I have been answering last years questions. Sorry. :blush:
    Not at all. This is all contemporary. Aye, faith indeed.
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