A Plea for Martin54

CaissaCaissa Shipmate
Martin54 has made it clear that being a member of this community is good for him therapeutically. I think little to nothing is gained from repeatedly suspending him. Correct him, admonish him, criticize him but for G-d's sake stop suspending him, please.

He frustrates us all at times. I think suspending him does more harm for him that good for the community.
«134

Comments

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 25
    What about the harm he might be doing (in the latest case) to the other Shipmate concerned?

    The H&As have a duty, surely, to consider that as well. Martin seems to bounce back after each suspension, so presumably the shore leave does him no real harm.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    There was no "harm" done in that thread in my opinion. Martin's oblique (sometimes opaque) posting style leads to him often being accused of personal attacks when he is making general statements. ex. Morality is dishonest. Morality is corrupt.

    Parenthetically, a hostly admonishment to stop something should not be followed immediately by and Administrative suspension. At the very least, he should have been given an opportunity to stop the behaviour.
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    Martin's right to swing his fist stops at the end of another Shippie's nose.

    The Ship does not exist to provide Martin with therapy, especially when the cost is hurting and upsetting other participants who actually know how to follow the rules.

    Quite frankly I think it's testament to the patience of the Admins that he hasn't been given a permanent ban.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 25
    Martin's right to swing his fist stops at the end of another Shippie's nose.

    The Ship does not exist to provide Martin with therapy, especially when the cost is hurting and upsetting other participants who actually know how to follow the rules.

    Quite frankly I think it's testament to the patience of the Admins that he hasn't been given a permanent ban.

    This.

    Thank you @la vie en rouge
  • I'm also amazed he's still here. I've rarely seen such a destructive poster, and I used to be a mod elsewhere. The hosts are amazing to put up with it.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Martin's right to swing his fist stops at the end of another Shippie's nose.

    The Ship does not exist to provide Martin with therapy, especially when the cost is hurting and upsetting other participants who actually know how to follow the rules.

    Quite frankly I think it's testament to the patience of the Admins that he hasn't been given a permanent ban.
    Absolutely this. All too often, Martin’s posts are not just oblique or enigmatic, they are abusive and bullying. Quite a few shipmates have stopped engaging with him, and I’m aware of at least one or two he’s driven from the Ship. I fail to see how permitting that kind of behavior is good for the community.

    He’s been given chance after chance after chance, and yet his posts continue to show a complete disregard for forum rules or the feelings of others. How is that good for the community?

    If Martin really values being part of this community, he can avoid further suspensions by respecting the rest of the community.


  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 25
    Caissa wrote: »
    There was no "harm" done in that thread in my opinion. Martin's oblique (sometimes opaque) posting style leads to him often being accused of personal attacks when he is making general statements. ex. Morality is dishonest. Morality is corrupt.

    Parenthetically, a hostly admonishment to stop something should not be followed immediately by and Administrative suspension. At the very least, he should have been given an opportunity to stop the behaviour.

    There had been previous a host warning on a different thread with regard to harassing a particular shipmate.

    I do not accept his behaviour in this situation was harmless.
  • In fact, allowing Martin to carry on, is destructive. I'm not sure how this comes about, but it seems absurd really.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    There seems to be a constituency on the ship who do not recognise destructive behaviour unless it is barn door obvious, as in someone posting “You are talking £#(@)#’ing £#)#’kf you useless piece of £#@#&;&, I hope you rot in Hell”.

    Therefore, Every. Single. Time. We take action over somewhat more subtle patterns of destructive posting there is a Styx thread complaining we are being unreasonable. We try to reflect on, engage with, and think about what shipmates post in Styx. So inevitably we think, was that the right decision ? Should we try something else.

    In the recent past, we have tried - in response to issues pertaining to Martin’s posting - corralling all the is-there-a-God stuff into one Purg thread, providing a loss of faith support thread in All Saints, explicit, clear posting rules laid out in Styx. Some of these things work for a short time, some do not, and sometimes we seem to see some kind of “suicide-by-cop” dynamic.

    Crusading, swamping threads with unintelligible posts, harassing other posters with no regard for the impact on them, and posting Rorschach inkblots of posts does not contribute to either the quality of debate or the quality of the community on the forum. I fear we are running out of options.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I have not said your actions were "unreasonable". In my first post I made a plea that ways be found to deal with Martin54 short of suspension. In the second one, I did suggest he should be given an opportunity to comply with the host's request prior to being suspended.

    I understand your frustration Doublethink but I do not think your first two paragraphs are a fair representation of my concerns for Martin54.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Caissa wrote: »
    In my first post I made a plea that ways be found to deal with Martin54 short of suspension.

    And I have explained what we have tried.
    In the second one, I did suggest he should be given an opportunity to comply with the host's request prior to being suspended.

    As I stated, he was.
    I understand your frustration Doublethink but I do not think your first two paragraphs are a fair representation of my concerns for Martin54.

    I was not referring solely to you - I was endeavouring in part to answer @quetzalcoatl ’s implied query as to how we have got to this point.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Okay. That's fair. I sympathize with the administration's dilemma. I truly wish we could find a way to manage to retain Martin54 in the community. As much as his posts frustrate me at times, information he posted earlier this year about his circumstances leads me to believe that his being part of this community is good for him. That said, I understand that the purpose of this community is not to be part of an individual's therapy. That said, I believe this community is therapeutic for many.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    The difficulty comes when what may be therapeutic for one is damaging to others.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Agreed. How does one measure whether damage has happened other than I suppose self-reporting?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    In general, if you want to consider the likely impact of one’s own posting on others - it is worth keeping an eye on the prayer thread.

    The worst example I’ve ever seen of obliviousness to another’s circumstances, was someone attempting to argue with a poster who had actually already died, on a hell thread.
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    Thanks, Doublethink. It is a thread that I rarely visit.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    If it helps, since I was the latest target of Martin’s behavior, I would advocate for a shorter suspension. Or even let him back on now in the hopes he’ll behave better. I wasn’t aware (I’m still not completely sure I know everything that was posted somewhere or other about this?) of some of his current circumstances.
  • Raptor EyeRaptor Eye Shipmate
    Fwiw, I thought Martin’s last post ‘as’ was simply him correcting the grammar on his latest post, and not aimed at anyone at all.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    If it helps, since I was the latest target of Martin’s behavior, I would advocate for a shorter suspension. Or even let him back on now in the hopes he’ll behave better.
    The thing is, he’s been given the benefit of hoping he’ll behave better many, many times over many, many years. So far, he hasn’t done better.


  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Martin shouldn't get a pass when he transgresses rules that other shippies are disciplined for. Either the rules apply to everybody or they shouldn't be rules at all. No special pleading, no special cases.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    I can't defend @Martin54 attempting to pull someone into an argument, who doesn't want to join. However, here @Martin54 put it well:
    As the only way I can survive in this, my own personal minefield, is by standing still.

    Martin has started some of his own threads to contain his views.
    Sometimes those comments have been met with threats of shoreleave.

    And he has used a thread (Positing God in the Shower - Merged) as a place to post his disagreements with other people.
    That was shut down.

    Even talking to himself in his own corner is not acceptable.

    He has expressed and defended unpopular opinions (for example regarding the Rwandan Genocide), which were received with offense, rather than thoughtful consideration of what he was getting at. He won. He was threatened with 4 weeks of shore leave for being "jerkish." If expressing unpopular opinions, even when one is able to defend them, is being "jerkish" then the Ship can only operate as an echo chamber.

    There is other coxcombing around the Ship, but no one does it with quite the confounding flair that Martin54 exhibits. When his intellectual opponents are perplexed, he wins. When he gets shore leave, it demonstrates that he has again outwitted the authorities, because authorities have no tools to counter his point of view or argument. He wins again.

    And the Ship loses.

    Martin54 is the most fearless thinker I've met. He is willing to take on the most frightening ideas and either conquor them or deal with them, when he finds them to be true. That is often the gauntlet he lays down in discussions.

    If such such challenges are not welcome on the Ship, then the Ship loses.
  • Folks, could we leave it to the people who have the most information? It seems to me this is a no-win situation, but the H&A have tried their darndest, and seem inclined to go on trying, and I don't want to make that job any harder than it is already.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Folks, could we leave it to the people who have the most information? It seems to me this is a no-win situation, but the H&A have tried their darndest, and seem inclined to go on trying, and I don't want to make that job any harder than it is already.

    Agreed. I'm still very sorry to hear about what appear to be some very rough real-life circumstances he's in right now, though, that might be pushing him to "act out" more than he otherwise might. Prayers ascending.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Kendel wrote: »
    And he has used a thread (Positing God in the Shower - Merged) as a place to post his disagreements with other people.
    That was shut down.

    Even talking to himself in his own corner is not acceptable.

    Only because he dragged other people from another thread into his own thread (ah, not just me, then?):

    https://forums.shipoffools.com/discussion/5032/positing-god-in-the-shower-divine-intelligence-merged/p6
    There is other coxcombing around the Ship, but no one does it with quite the confounding flair that Martin54 exhibits. When his intellectual opponents are perplexed, he wins. When he gets shore leave, it demonstrates that he has again outwitted the authorities, because authorities have no tools to counter his point of view or argument. He wins again.

    And the Ship loses.

    While I was advocating giving Martin another chance due to his circumstances... I wholly disagree with all of this. Confounding, yes, because he's being deliberately confusing, but flair? I don't think he's outwitting anyone, or winning, and I don't think the Ship loses here. It may be a more complex approach to trolling, but I think it's still trolling, especially when he's been told "stop doing this" by the Hosts/Admins, and then does it anyway.

    I'm still sorry for his current situation, both in his life in general and how it seems to have affected his faith.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 26
    Kendel wrote: »
    I can't defend @Martin54 attempting to pull someone into an argument, who doesn't want to join. However, here @Martin54 put it well:
    As the only way I can survive in this, my own personal minefield, is by standing still.

    Martin has started some of his own threads to contain his views.
    Sometimes those comments have been met with threats of shoreleave.

    And he has used a thread (Positing God in the Shower - Merged) as a place to post his disagreements with other people.
    That was shut down.

    Even talking to himself in his own corner is not acceptable.

    He has expressed and defended unpopular opinions (for example regarding the Rwandan Genocide), which were received with offense, rather than thoughtful consideration of what he was getting at. He won. He was threatened with 4 weeks of shore leave for being "jerkish." If expressing unpopular opinions, even when one is able to defend them, is being "jerkish" then the Ship can only operate as an echo chamber.

    There is other coxcombing around the Ship, but no one does it with quite the confounding flair that Martin54 exhibits. When his intellectual opponents are perplexed, he wins. When he gets shore leave, it demonstrates that he has again outwitted the authorities, because authorities have no tools to counter his point of view or argument. He wins again.

    And the Ship loses.

    Martin54 is the most fearless thinker I've met. He is willing to take on the most frightening ideas and either conquor them or deal with them, when he finds them to be true. That is often the gauntlet he lays down in discussions.

    If such such challenges are not welcome on the Ship, then the Ship loses.

    A valiant defense. Worthy of the fantastic, flawed Darrow.

    But would the teacher have walked in the agora?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    edited June 26
    Kendel wrote: »
    Martin has started some of his own threads to contain his views.
    Sometimes those comments have been met with threats of shoreleave.

    And he has used a thread (Positing God in the Shower - Merged) as a place to post his disagreements with other people.
    That was shut down.

    Even talking to himself in his own corner is not acceptable.

    This forum is not a blog. (The merged thread existed, because we took multiple threads on the same topic and merged them, not because he started just one thread,)
    He has expressed and defended unpopular opinions (for example regarding the Rwandan Genocide), which were received with offense, rather than thoughtful consideration of what he was getting at.

    The issue wasn’t that he expressed the idea that moral behaviour does not require faith or Christianity in particular - it was that he made sweeping generalisations with highly negative connotations to a whole community and followed by the manner of his response to the lived experience presented to him on the thread.
    He won.

    He won what exactly ?
    He was threatened with 4 weeks of shore leave for being "jerkish." If expressing unpopular opinions, even when one is able to defend them, is being "jerkish" then the Ship can only operate as an echo chamber.

    See above.
    When his intellectual opponents are perplexed, he wins. When he gets shore leave, it demonstrates that he has again outwitted the authorities, because authorities have no tools to counter his point of view or argument. He wins again.

    The issue is how he makes such arguments, not the arguments themselves. It is as if we had a rule against swearing but but he always swore - his arguments are possible to make on the ship, it is perfectly possible to frame them within the existing posting guidance he just doesn’t.

    As I stated here:
    @Martin54 in Purgatory we need you to post comprehensibly, without crusading or derailing the thread, and making a contribution to the discussion. Which means three kinds of thing are not OK: scattergun single sentence responses that do not engage with the thread/s, off topic or repeated posts of God’s a bastard it’s all a pile of crap and responses with the comprehensibility of ”Shaka when the walls fell” - because Purgatory is a discussion forum not a cryptic crossword.

    If you want to have a rant about God do it in Hell, if you want to have a cryptic allusion game, make an op explaining the rules and post it in The Circus. If you want seek relationship and community with other posters rather than primarily engaging around discussion consider using Heaven or All Saints.

    Is what we are asking for, together with posting in accordance with forum guidelines - which for Purgatory can be found here, rolling updates to the forum guidelines are here.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    stetson wrote: »

    A valiant defense. Worthy of the fantastic, flawed Darrow.

    But would the teacher have walked in the agora?

    What is this intended to mean ?
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    edited June 26
    @Kendel if Martin wants an outlet for his feelings, there is literally nothing preventing him getting a blog. Those like yourself who are interested in his thoughts are free to read it.
  • KendelKendel Shipmate
    edited June 26
    stetson wrote: »
    A valiant defense. Worthy of the fantastic, flawed Darrow.


    It's an honor to be compared with a leader of the American Civil Liberties Union as well as a defender of Black Americans' rights to self-defense. Thank you.

    stetson wrote: »
    But would the teacher have walked in the agora?

    An agora in Tennesee?
    Speaking of the fantastical...
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I thought Stetson's comments were an attempt to emulate Martin54. Of course, I could be wrong. ;^)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 26
    Caissa wrote: »
    I thought Stetson's comments were an attempt to emulate Martin54. Of course, I could be wrong. ;^)

    Yes. Specifically, I wanted to emphasize the confusing nature of his posts, in that his cryptic allusions and tangents often don't proceed logically from what he's replying to. I thought @Kendel's post had somewhat underplayed this aspect of his style.

    And FWIW...

    My post was meant as a mash-up of the Scopes trial and that of Socrates, with the concept of "defence", or in Socrates' case, "apology", as the link.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Please don’t play games in the Styx, it is not helpful.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Kendel wrote: »
    An agora in Tennesee?
    Speaking of the fantastical...

    Congrats on getting the allusion straight out of the gate.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Please don’t play games in the Styx, it is not helpful.

    Sorry. The point in everyday terms...

    Credible defense of Martin, Kendel, but I do think you're somewhat underplaying the disruptive and confusing nature of his writing style.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Please don’t play games in the Styx, it is not helpful.

    Sorry. The point in everyday terms...

    Credible defense of Martin, Kendel, but I do think you're somewhat underplaying the disruptive and confusing nature of his writing style.
    As well as the way his posts frequently veer into, at the least, disrespect toward other shipmates (the confusing and disruptive nature of his writing style being but one way this happens).

    Martin’s problem is not what he says or the popularity/unpopularity of his positions. His problem is how he expresses his ideas and how he ignores the Ship’s rules.


  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    If the majority position is the feelings about Martin54 why is he strung along from inevitable suspension to inevitable suspension?
  • It's not the job of the majority (however you calculate that!) to decide. AIUI, that decision rests with the H&As.

    FWIW, I'd be sorry to see him go, as I've had some worthwhile (if brief) exchanges* with him in the past, but the idea of him acquiring himself a blog, as suggested by @la vie en rouge , seems sensible.

    (*not that I wholly understood what he was getting at, but his posts directed to me were invariably friendly and polite, if somewhat offbeat...)
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I meant majority position on this thread. My apologies for leaving off the last bit. Yes, I recognize the decision rests with H & As.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited June 26
    Caissa wrote: »
    I meant majority position on this thread. My apologies for leaving off the last bit. Yes, I recognize the decision rests with H & As.

    OK - fair point. I did think that that was perhaps what you meant, but reservations about Martin have been expressed on various other threads.
    :wink:
  • Look, I think a lot of us love him. But we can't save him from himself, as much as we try. If you can find a way to do so, we'd be glad to know it.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Caissa wrote: »
    If the majority position is the feelings about Martin54 why is he strung along from inevitable suspension to inevitable suspension?

    I suppose because we have not seen them as inevitable, the hope has always been that we will see change. Alternatively, we could ban him permanently.
  • Hope is the cruellest thing.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited June 26
    indeed. On either side of this mess.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Caissa wrote: »
    If the majority position is the feelings about Martin54 why is he strung along from inevitable suspension to inevitable suspension?

    I suppose because we have not seen them as inevitable, the hope has always been that we will see change. Alternatively, we could ban him permanently.

    Especially because he’s going through so much stuff right now, and… Who knows what factors have encouraged him to kind of be frustrating and difficult like this? I mean heck I didn’t really develop social skills until I met a father figure when I was 29 years old… But I’d rather not see him permanently banned. He’s been a shipmate for years and years and years and yes he’s been really frustrating for years and years and years but it’s not like the only thing he does is frustrate people. (@Kendal, he’s done the “incomprehensible crossword puzzle comment” thing for… decades, maybe? It’s just now with more of an aggressive edge because of, I’m guessing, his life circumstances and his newfound angry atheism.) I really feel like, if he were to be banned from the ship, right now would be the worst time to do that, just out of kindness to somebody that has been a very long term shipmate who’s going through what appears to be a horrible situation from the little that I have heard.
  • NicoleMRNicoleMR Shipmate
    He seems to be getting worse, I assume because of his change in circumstances. He really would benefit by a blog to vent some of this stuff. If he's reading this, I would suggest getting a dreamwidth.org account and setting it up. (Dreamwidth is a successor to livejournal, and works the same way, but there's more active people there)

    But for here, he's really getting unendurable. It's almost like he wants to get slapped down. As someone said above, suicide by cop.
  • Or maybe containment.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    NicoleMR wrote: »
    He seems to be getting worse, I assume because of his change in circumstances. He really would benefit by a blog to vent some of this stuff. If he's reading this, I would suggest getting a dreamwidth.org account and setting it up. (Dreamwidth is a successor to livejournal, and works the same way, but there's more active people there)

    But for here, he's really getting unendurable. It's almost like he wants to get slapped down. As someone said above, suicide by cop.

    And presumably Dreamwidth is not Russian owned (LiveJournal is now) with some really weird problems and issues now… :open_mouth:

    See “Russian Jurisdiction” below. I’ve also seen some really right-wing blogs there. Yikes.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveJournal
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    What can we all do to try to help Martin54 to have a successful experience when he returns? It's a question I will ponder for myself.
  • I’m praying, but i can’t think of anything else, I’ve been racking my brains.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    Praying too, both for his situation and that he will regain his lost faith. 🕯
Sign In or Register to comment.