Racist fuckwits at (my) university

ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
At the uni I work at, students appeared in a pub in
KKK costumes and blackface

Response from the Vice-Chancellor:
...
The University is aware of these reports and a Critical Incident Response Group has been formed.
...

No. No Critical Incident Response Group. Expulsion.

And to these idiots, these uni-educated fucking idiots, no words suffice. I know racism exists here. It exists a lot. I'm not naïve. But this? How do you get to their age and think this is fucking acceptable?

Sorry for bringing this to your attention. I was going to post it in the TICTH thread in All Saints, but I thought it was too much for there. And people may have knowledge, or worse, experience, they want to let off here.
Tagged:
«134567

Comments

  • Climacus wrote: »
    No. No Critical Incident Response Group. Expulsion.

    I agree with your first point - there's no need to form a response group to analyse what went on here or anything. We don't need to know anything more than we already know.

    I think expulsion is a mite strong for a first offence, even one as egregious as this. I'd go with a year's suspension, together with some kind of essay and interview where they have to plead to be allowed back in, explain why their behaviour was offensive, and convince whoever you have in charge of student discipline that they are reformed characters. You could probably persuade me to cancel their recent exam results and force them to resit in a year as well.
  • Gaaaa!

    Out of curiosity, why pick stereotypes and nastiness from a couple thousand miles away? Are they afraid local dark-skinned folks would make their feelings directly known?

    One good thing: they managed to make the hoods look more silly than the real ones. LOL.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Indeed GK: I'm sure we have enough racists here in the present, and currently!, for them to dress up as. I just can't believe they ignored that flicker of doubt that surely, surely, must've passed through their tiny minds..."Is this a good idea?"


    Leorning Cniht: you may be right. Suspension perhaps. I was upset as I typed. I thought they could take their previous results and bugger off somewhere else, if they'd take them. Your suggestion seems very suitable.
  • I think a punishment that is part education and part torture comes to mind, like in A Clockwork Orange.

  • Well, I guess things are slowly moving forwards. I remember a lecturer provoking a degree of incredulity (but that was all) in about 1990 when discussing a thorny technical problem and saying 'now, here's the nigger in the woodpile'. But there are now tits mags in the SU shop. A few steps forward, a few steps back...
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Well, I guess things are slowly moving forwards. I remember a lecturer provoking a degree of incredulity (but that was all) in about 1990 when discussing a thorny technical problem and saying 'now, here's the nigger in the woodpile'. But there are now tits mags in the SU shop. A few steps forward, a few steps back...
    I sometimes wonder whether over time the actual capacity-for shock/disapproval-quotient remains about the same and all that happens is that the subject matter shifts over the generations.

  • Enoch wrote: »
    I sometimes wonder whether over time the actual capacity-for shock/disapproval-quotient remains about the same and all that happens is that the subject matter shifts over the generations.

    Indeed. I recall when Ron Atkinson was sacked for referring to somebody as "a lazy f***ing n****r". 20 years previously, it would have been the f word that landed him in hot water.
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    The Black Swan Hotel hasn't covered itself in glory either. Professing innocence ignorance doesn't convince anyone.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    I sometimes wonder whether over time the actual capacity-for shock/disapproval-quotient remains about the same and all that happens is that the subject matter shifts over the generations.

    Indeed. I recall when Ron Atkinson was sacked for referring to somebody as "a lazy f***ing n****r". 20 years previously, it would have been the f word that landed him in hot water.

    In the 1950s, the description "black" was wrong; the correct word was "negro". That's now reversed. "Nigger" was wrong then and is now.

    What's the problem with The Black Swan please?
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    What's the problem with The Black Swan please?

    This is from the linked article:

    "Following the outrage, the Black Swan Hotel has moved to distance itself from the incident, claiming its staff had no idea the men in costumes were there, despite the fact that they were holding drinks.

    "The pub was made aware of an incident unbeknownst to staff," it posted on Facebook.

    "To all that message. Thank you very much for your message. We were unaware of this behaviour happening out the back of the pub, however we have immediately dealt with this.

    "We have zero tolerance and do not condone this sort of behaviour.""

    How the hell were staff unaware of six guys dressed up like that? They are hardly inconspicuous. Were others buying drinks for them? Maybe this kind of thing is OK in the Black Swan, I dunno the place. Is this "Zero tolerance*" policy new?

    *God, I hate this term. Please put it in the same circle of Hell as "Safety is paramount" and "We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Terrible.

    Didn’t Prince Harry dress as a Nazi while he was at uni? Isn’t that just as bad?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate

    I think expulsion is a mite strong for a first offence, even one as egregious as this.
    Not so sure.
    From the invite:
    So grab a kit that would legally get you in shit and hook right in.
    30 years ago, maybe a suspension. These days? We don’t need anyone that stupid in a job that requires an education.
  • EliabEliab Shipmate, Purgatory Host
    Climacus wrote: »
    How do you get to their age and think this is fucking acceptable?

    They don't think it's acceptable. According to your link it was a "politically incorrect" costume evening. I'd guess that the whole point was to wear something that was grossly offensive.

    These people clearly don't think that looking like you're in the KKK is just fine - they are dressing up that way precisely because it isn't, and the stereotypes that they are representing are very strong taboos. The fun in doing something like that is the fun of transgressing a boundary and shocking people - it's why 'Cards Against Humanity' sells.

    You can get angry about their insensitivity if you like, but I think you're very likely mistaken in seeing the costume as signalling support for racism by people who don't know that racism is unacceptable. Rather it's a costume that has been carefully chosen precisely because they knew very well that racism is completely unacceptable. And it works. I find the picture shocking and I'm pretty fucking liberal when it comes to recreational dressing up.

    I'm not in favour a 'bad taste' exception to the general principle of freedom of speech, though.

  • ExclamationMarkExclamationMark Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Boogie wrote: »
    Terrible.

    Didn’t Prince Harry dress as a Nazi while he was at uni? Isn’t that just as bad?

    Yep sure is and he also used the P word when referring to someone he assumed was of Asian origin. He's a member of the Royal family. They are allowed (even encouraged by other members of the same family group) to do that
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    Climacus wrote: »
    Indeed GK: I'm sure we have enough racists here in the present, and currently!, for them to dress up as. I just can't believe they ignored that flicker of doubt that surely, surely, must've passed through their tiny minds..."Is this a good idea?"


    Leorning Cniht: you may be right. Suspension perhaps. I was upset as I typed. I thought they could take their previous results and bugger off somewhere else, if they'd take them. Your suggestion seems very suitable.

    I've thought again about this and some kind of action is essential, but depriving them of education is the wrong thing to do. Education is exactly what they need, so I would "gate" them, as they say at Oxbridge. In the absence of a social life they can get on with extra lectures and essays. Detention for (alleged) adults.
  • Marvin the MartianMarvin the Martian Admin Emeritus
    Climacus wrote: »
    No. No Critical Incident Response Group. Expulsion.

    I agree with your first point - there's no need to form a response group to analyse what went on here or anything. We don't need to know anything more than we already know.

    ISTM that one key thing we (and presumably the university) don't know for sure is which students these were. In the one piece of hard evidence we have access to (the photo) five of them are wearing hoods and the other is so blacked up that it's difficult to identify him.

    Sure, there will be plenty of other students who do know who they are. But finding that out and then following the proper disciplinary procedures will require a whole bunch of interviews, hearings and paperwork. All of which will need to be co-ordinated, presumably by some form of Group set up in Response to this Critical Incident.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I think I agree with Eliab. I find his words persuasive. And I agree with Sionisais that any action which goes as far as to deprive them of education would be wrong.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Eliab wrote: »
    According to your link it was a "politically incorrect" costume evening. I'd guess that the whole point was to wear something that was grossly offensive.

    If their intention was to be grossly offensive, then mission accomplished! I'm not sure that deliberately intending to be grossly offensive is any kind of defense here. Still, it does clarify that most times "politically incorrect" is just a euphemism for "racist AF". The fact that you were wildly successful in being racist is in no way mitigated because you decided to attend a Let's All Be Racist Party. Quite the reverse, in fact.

    Let's not forget that in addition to being racist AF (sorry, "politically incorrect"), the Ku Klux Klan is also a terrorist organization.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    sionisais wrote: »
    Education is exactly what they need,
    Education is what they need, but it should be more than obvious by now that they are not going to get the sort they need at uni. And few lectures or classes aren't like to fix this sort of idiocy. A barring from any sort of advanced education for a minimum of two years. When the ban is lifted, they then have to retake any entrance exams. This might teach them a real lesson in how being disadvantaged works and, just maybe, why they shouldn't have been so stupid.

  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    The story says the perpetrators are believed to be students. Perhaps their identities are not known. It may be early to expel anyone.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    HarryCH wrote: »
    The story says the perpetrators are believed to be students. Perhaps their identities are not known. It may be early to expel anyone.
    Expel 'em all and let the jobs market sort them out!

    Obviously, can't punish people if their identities are unknown, In addition to any individual accountability, the university needs to make a concerted effort to reduce the recurrence of that sort of thing.
  • There is a code of conduct at every college or university. presumably they have broken it - it equates to gross misconduct in the workplace. That ends up in only one place - category 2: instant dismissal no notice, funds in lieu etc, no reference.

    If the code doesn't allow for this then there's something wrong with the code - hence gross misconduct from the authorities, ditto as above.

    It's not a question of doing something but ensuring something is seen to be done to dissuade others from doing the same.
  • One way to look at it is this. If I did it what would you do?

    Quite. In that case, why treat them any differently? That goes for so called royalty, sons of mps, public schoolboys whatever.
  • RdrEmCofERdrEmCofE Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Enoch wrote: »
    I think I agree with Eliab. I find his words persuasive. And I agree with Sionisais that any action which goes as far as to deprive them of education would be wrong.

    Cancel all their hollidays and make em do extra research, demanding straight A's from them all, or out. That way they get pissed off, AND an education sorely needed.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    There is a code of conduct at every college or university. presumably they have broken it -
    Everyone has a code of conduct, if only to cover their arses. It is the culture that surrounds it and how the codes are enforced that matter.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    RdrEmCofE wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I think I agree with Eliab. I find his words persuasive. And I agree with Sionisais that any action which goes as far as to deprive them of education would be wrong.

    Cancel all their hollidays and make em do extra research, demanding straight A's from them all, or out. That way they get pissed off, AND an education sorely needed.
    Yeah, because all racists are stupid and lazy.
  • RooKRooK Admin Emeritus
    edited June 2018
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Yeah, because all racists are stupid and lazy.

    I hear what you mean by that, because nothing is that simple.

    ...But I have to say that I have a hard time conceptualizing racist thinking as being anything other than lazy and stupid.
  • Dude. Code.
  • RdrEmCofERdrEmCofE Shipmate
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    RdrEmCofE wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    I think I agree with Eliab. I find his words persuasive. And I agree with Sionisais that any action which goes as far as to deprive them of education would be wrong.

    Cancel all their hollidays and make em do extra research, demanding straight A's from them all, or out. That way they get pissed off, AND an education sorely needed.
    Yeah, because all racists are stupid and lazy.

    I could agree with the illogicality of the converse, i.e. "All lazy, stupid people are racist" but Yeah, "all racists are lazy and stupid", is almost sensible as a concept apart from their 'laziness' being probably limited to their intellectual activity, rather than their physical characteristics and 'Stupid', limited to their 'empathic IQ', rather than their actual intellectual potential, were they not racists.
  • Boogie wrote: »
    Terrible.

    Didn’t Prince Harry dress as a Nazi while he was at uni? Isn’t that just as bad?

    No, Harry never went to Uni, he was in Officer Training at Sandhurst

    Jengie
  • EliabEliab Shipmate, Purgatory Host
    edited June 2018
    Crœsos wrote: »
    I'm not sure that deliberately intending to be grossly offensive is any kind of defense here.

    I’m not arguing for a defence
    so much as a sense of proportion.
    In addition to being racist AF (sorry, "politically incorrect"), the Ku Klux Klan is also a terrorist organization.

    Yes, and from most of the reactions here, you’d think these students were actually KKK supporters.

    Or worse. It would be problematic enough, in a free society, to want to ban someone from a university education for having racist views, or belonging to a racist organisation, odious as those things might be. But these students haven’t (as far as any of us know) joined the KKK - they wore tasteless costumes for a night out. And some of the people here would apparently be happy to ruin their lives for that.

  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    30 years ago, maybe a suspension. These days? We don’t need anyone that stupid in a job that requires an education.

    The article doesn't say how old these students are - whether they're about to graduate, or just finishing their first year. Particularly in the latter case, these are young people who are transitioning from childhood to adulthood. Young people do stupid things - it comes with the territory - and I do not favour irreversible punishments for youthful stupidity, whether we're talking about educational sanctions, the criminal justice system, or whatever.

    In this case, my recommendation was a year's suspension followed by being required to demonstrate an understanding of why their "politically incorrect" costume party was a problem in order to be readmitted. They're going to have to take their punishment and show evidence of reform in order to get anywhere near "a job that requires an education". My hope would be that this would result in these young people becoming better people, and IMO a year's suspension is adequate as an example pour encourager les autres.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    RooK wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Yeah, because all racists are stupid and lazy.

    I hear what you mean by that, because nothing is that simple.

    ...But I have to say that I have a hard time conceptualizing racist thinking as being anything other than lazy and stupid.
    It felt a bit odd to write it. But characterising racism as something so simple is part of the reason it persists as strongly as it does.

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    Eliab wrote: »
    Yes, and from most of the reactions here, you’d think these students were actually KKK supporters.
    They are. Racism is not just the vilest hater speech and actions. The extreme actions and rhetoric are supported by the lesser grades.
    They are, perhaps, not direct KKK or the like members, but they do support the same intolerance.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    In this case, my recommendation was a year's suspension followed by being required to demonstrate an understanding of why their "politically incorrect" costume party was a problem in order to be readmitted. They're going to have to take their punishment and show evidence of reform in order to get anywhere near "a job that requires an education". My hope would be that this would result in these young people becoming better people, and IMO a year's suspension is adequate as an example pour encourager les autres.
    I'm not sure it is. Punishments encourage or discourage others by how severe they are. I am not sure a year is all that much a punishment. A year off school is not that much an impediment. Multiple years is. The longer off, the more difficult the break is. Whilst I would prefer the that the individuals involved learn, I am more concerned about the message to the rest of the country.
    "Hey look! This behaviour has consequences and this is why." Both those messages are important. It is 20 motherfucking 18. This shit should be much less common than it is.
    I'm not suggesting flaying the "lads" alive, but thinking of it as just laddish behaviour is part of the problem.

  • Leorning CnihtLeorning Cniht Shipmate
    edited June 2018
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    I am not sure a year is all that much a punishment. A year off school is not that much an impediment.
    A year off, in the middle of a degree course? You can't actually just "take the year off" because you have to preserve your knowledge so that you're prepared for the next year. Move back home, get some minimum-wage job to support yourself for a year, and study in the evenings. Not graduate with your friends and peers, but be delayed by a year?

    I think that's a pretty significant short-term effect.

    I would agree that it doesn't provide a major impediment to the long-term success of a person's life. That's what I'm looking for - something which is serious enough in the short term, but does not leave someone significantly disadvantaged over the scale of a lifetime.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Multiple years is. The longer off, the more difficult the break is.

    Yes, it is. They're probably not coming back after multiple years. Suspend these kids for 2+ years, and you've probably significantly altered their entire lives in a negative direction.
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Whilst I would prefer the that the individuals involved learn, I am more concerned about the message to the rest of the country.

    Realistically, you're not sending a message to "the country", but you will certainly affect the current and near future student body of that university, and possibly the student body at other universities. And I think for most students, a year's suspension is plenty to make them sit up and pay attention.

    I'm not trying to justify this as "just lads". Laddish behaviour would be underage drinking, waking up in the gutter covered in vomit, and similar stupid shit. Stealing traffic cones or drawing genitalia on the college lawn in herbicide. I wouldn't suspend people for stupid shit like that.

    (I am assuming here that the students involved have not previously been sanctioned for some kind of racist thing. First time offenders get leniency and the benefit of the doubt. Do it again, and your culpability goes way up.)
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    I think that's a pretty significant short-term effect.
    Short-term effects don't have the same deterrent level long ones do.
    I would agree that it doesn't provide a major impediment to the long-term success of a person's life. That's what I'm looking for - something which is serious enough in the short term, but does not leave someone significantly disadvantaged over the scale of a lifetime.
    The treatment of PoC represented by their costumes and supported by their behaviour has long term consequences for said PoC.
    Yes, it is. They're probably not coming back after multiple years. Suspend these kids for 2+ years, and you've probably significantly altered their entire lives in a negative direction.
    I've mixed feelings about that.
    Ruining lives is not my goal.
    Actions not seen as having serious consequences encourages, or at least fails to discourage, them.

    I'm not sure what the proper balance between the two is here.
    What I am sure of is that Australia, and the UK and US, sure as fuck haven't got it right yet.
  • Presumably the punishment ought to fit the crime. In England and Wales, this would be a public order offence, racially aggravated (thus upping the tarrif).

    This happened in a public place, and the law should take its course. These are adults. Infantilising them does no one any favours.

    They might plead, or accept a caution, or try their luck in court. The magistrates would likely fine them or give them community service, and they'd have a police record.

    That's a suitable punishment, surely?
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    The treatment of PoC represented by their costumes and supported by their behaviour has long term consequences for said PoC.

    What don't two wrongs make?
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    This happened in a public place, and the law should take its course. These are adults. Infantilising them does no one any favours.

    What legal sanctions there should be are I think different from what university sanctions there should be. I can be disciplined by my employer (up to and including being fired) for racist actions that are not against the law.

    You are, I assume, suggesting that in England and Wales, these idiots would be guilty of racially or religiously aggravated harassment, alarm or distress. I'm not sure that the mere act of dressing in these costumes is sufficient to be guilty of this offence. I can find any number of articles in the press about UK students dressing in blackface costumes for parties. All of them are accompanied by widespread condemnation, decrying the racist nature of the costumes. None of them are accompanied by any suggestion that a crime has been committed, or that the police are involved. The only censure that seems to be suggested is the rugby club (or whatever) getting disbanded for the rest of the year or something.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    What don't two wrongs make?
    Wouldn't necessarily be two wrongs. It would more illustrate a fitting, if possibly too harsh, a punishment.

  • I'm not sure that the mere act of dressing in these costumes is sufficient to be guilty of this offence.

    I'd want to test that. I'd sure as hell make a complaint to the police, and would follow it up vigorously.
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    Thanks for the views all.

    The local news last night identified 2 perpetrators, one of whom was involved in another dress up: Hitler and several Jewish prisoners.

    Politically incorrect? Yes. As it said on the invite. Stupid? I'd say Yes as well.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Sionisais thanks for that - no link on my screen.

    linBuddha here in Australia we most certainly have not got it right with the ancient peoples of this land and show no signs of doing so. However, we do seem to have done so with the substantial inflow of new residents in the last 30 years or so from East Asia. That has largely seen the abandonment of multiculturalism.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    You are, I assume, suggesting that in England and Wales, these idiots would be guilty of racially or religiously aggravated harassment, alarm or distress. I'm not sure that the mere act of dressing in these costumes is sufficient to be guilty of this offence.

    Once again, because it seems not to have sunk in, the Klan is a terrorist organization. The main purpose of Klan robes is to terrorize black people (and to conceal the identities of the terrorists). Causing "racially or religiously aggravated harassment, alarm or distress" is what Klan robes are for!
  • Jengie Jon wrote: »
    Boogie wrote: »
    Terrible.

    Didn’t Prince Harry dress as a Nazi while he was at uni? Isn’t that just as bad?

    No, Harry never went to Uni, he was in Officer Training at Sandhurst

    Jengie

    No he hadn't the brains for the former but had the connections to secure the latter. Even so there are pernicious rumours about the "help" he had to pass one A level.
  • Mr SmiffMr Smiff Shipmate
    I’m no royalist, and recognise this is Hell, but this sniping at the royals’ intelligence and academic achievements (or otherwise) does get tiresome. What’s it supposed to prove?
  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    Well, if you dress as a Nazi or a member of the KKK to attend a fancy dress party, this shows an enormous lack of intelligence imo.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    I think the difficulty here is that we have examples within our media and culture when dressing up is used to lampoon racists.

    For example Blazing Saddles* and The Producers.

    Now, I'm not supporting "politically incorrect" drinking parties or Royals dressing up as Nazis. And one has to wonder about the morons who thought they'd do this for fun at university.

    But all of that said, I think it is quite a difficult line to walk when sometimes anti-racists dress up like racists.

    * I know this sounds like I'm a wet blanket, but I can't watch that film. I have a real problem with racism, even when used in jest to mock racists.
  • mr cheesymr cheesy Shipmate
    Mr Smiff wrote: »
    I’m no royalist, and recognise this is Hell, but this sniping at the royals’ intelligence and academic achievements (or otherwise) does get tiresome. What’s it supposed to prove?

    It shows that there are individuals in society who operate to different standards and who get away with more than others.

    A Nazi-themed party in the hall in my village would immediately cause a rumpus and probably police presence and arrests. If participants were working for local factories, schools and businesses, there is a very good chance they'd be fired.

    But if you are a Royal, you not only get away with this shit even when it is on the front page of national newspapers, you get cushy jobs and promotions far above your intelligence level.

    That's why.
  • Mr SmiffMr Smiff Shipmate
    Boogie wrote: »
    Well, if you dress as a Nazi or a member of the KKK to attend a fancy dress party, this shows an enormous lack of intelligence imo.
    Oh, both actions were stupid and offensive and idiotic and any other negative words you can think of, no question. But smart people can do dumb, idiotic, offensive things as well: idiocy isn’t limited to idiots.

    mr cheesy wrote: »
    Mr Smiff wrote: »
    I’m no royalist, and recognise this is Hell, but this sniping at the royals’ intelligence and academic achievements (or otherwise) does get tiresome. What’s it supposed to prove?

    It shows that there are individuals in society who operate to different standards and who get away with more than others.

    A Nazi-themed party in the hall in my village would immediately cause a rumpus and probably police presence and arrests. If participants were working for local factories, schools and businesses, there is a very good chance they'd be fired.

    But if you are a Royal, you not only get away with this shit even when it is on the front page of national newspapers, you get cushy jobs and promotions far above your intelligence level.

    That's why.
    I’d agree with most of that: the royals do get away with a lot more than most people would (though I’d be interested to hear how the front page coverage affected Harry - did he come to see it was a dickish move? Does he regard it as “old shame”?). But little of it has anything to do with Harry apparently not being intelligent enough to go to uni (which a lot of people aren’t and shouldn’t be a reason to have a dig at anyone); and given the people mentioned in the OP were university students, presumably intelligence or lack thereof wasn’t the issue.

    As to the last paragraph: lots of people get promoted beyond their intelligence, not just royals. And how has Prince Harry been promoted above his intelligence?
This discussion has been closed.