Transgender

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  • This is again Leaf individualized stories. We get it. But someone's story doesn't extend to the generalized understanding of how the broad swath of humanity develops. That it is now possible to hormonally and surgically alter the biology, that this is accepted as a new norm, is a big change.

    I'm guilty of having in my mind a different individual story and testimonial that doesn't match the long term gender dysphoria that some experience, and that a number of you post about. Acknowledging that I'm guilty also of the sort of data I reject.
  • I don't think that there are relatively small numbers of people who are transgender, intersex or homosexual does change the "generalised understanding of how the broad swathe of humanity develops", because the more we learn how sex and gender are formed, the more we realise that it is complicated. So that there are groups of people for whom this gender and sex formation appear to be partial or incomplete is not surprising, it's just the way things happen.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    This is again Leaf individualized stories. We get it. But someone's story doesn't extend to the generalized understanding of how the broad swath of humanity develops.

    What are you talking about? I did not post individualized stories. Who is "we"? Have you incorporated?
    That it is now possible to hormonally and surgically alter the biology, that this is accepted as a new norm, is a big change.

    Agreed.
    I'm guilty of having in my mind a different individual story and testimonial that doesn't match the long term gender dysphoria that some experience, and that a number of you post about. Acknowledging that I'm guilty also of the sort of data I reject.

    This makes it very difficult to have a productive discussion, when you are having internal monologues which you do not or cannot ethically post.

  • Gender is a subjective experience. If you drive for objectivity, you forget the people.
  • Leaf wrote: »
    This is again Leaf individualized stories. We get it. But someone's story doesn't extend to the generalized understanding of how the broad swath of humanity develops.

    What are you talking about? I did not post individualized stories. Who is "we"? Have you incorporated?
    That it is now possible to hormonally and surgically alter the biology, that this is accepted as a new norm, is a big change.

    Agreed.
    I'm guilty of having in my mind a different individual story and testimonial that doesn't match the long term gender dysphoria that some experience, and that a number of you post about. Acknowledging that I'm guilty also of the sort of data I reject.

    This makes it very difficult to have a productive discussion, when you are having internal monologues which you do not or cannot ethically post.

    Not really. It's all testimonial. Individual lived experience. I acknowledge that my understanding from a sample of n=1 which doesn't match stories shared ok the thread. That's all.

    We is my family.
    Gender is a subjective experience. If you drive for objectivity, you forget the people.

    Not true. One is analysed on the basis of the individual, one on the basis of sample of a group of people. Idiographic and nomothetic - Outline re.
  • ... I don't dismiss the individual lived experience but to generalize to the population from the lived experiences of a small group of qualitative stories isn't how we develop overall understanding, nor set public policy whether social or health. ....

    Unfortunately, this kind of reasoning sometimes leads us to create one-size-fits-all solutions and then blame the individuals who point out they don't work for everybody.
  • edited August 2018
    The American College of Pediatricians has a statement about gender dysphoria with children, indicating among other things that
    ...there is a vigorous, albeit suppressed, debate among physicians, therapists, and academics regarding what is fast becoming the new treatment standard for GD in children. This new paradigm is rooted in the assumption that GD is innate, and involves pubertal suppression with gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists followed by the use of cross-sex hormones—a combination that results in the sterility of minors. A review of the current literature suggests that this protocol is founded upon an unscientific gender ideology, lacks an evidence base, and violates the long-standing ethical principle of “First do no harm.”

    It is a position statement. It appears to align with what we've experienced: advocacy versus data. It certainly makes the press to acknowledge and affirm transgender a political rather than science-based undertaking. The social contagion issue as raised in the statement is our experience.
  • Vigorous but suppressed seems an oxymoron.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Thanks, Marsupial. I was just about to go nuts. The American College of Pediatricians is a fucking hate group formed to oppose adoptions by gays and lesbians, so I'm not surprised they're spouting bullshit about transgender children.

    The American Academy of Pediatrics takes a more humane approach:
    Much of the research that is available on transgender youth and adults points to the dismal psychosocial outcomes faced by this population. Homelessness, substance abuse, HIV infection, depression, anxiety, self-harm, and suicidality are much higher than in the general population, and are thought to result from family and community rejection.3,4 In the last decade, we have learned that medical interventions, including hormone blockers and later phenotypic transition with feminizing or masculinizing hormones, can improve these outcomes in youth.4,5 We have also learned the key role that family acceptance plays in improving outcomes.6
  • Well, I mistook one grouping of pediatricians from another. No idea that such a thing would occur.
  • It's always worth checking, when the material you want to use is from a website and some journals, the ethos of the group producing that material. It is not uncommon to find journals and groups set up to look like a group with expertise, but in reality with an agenda in opposition to the mainstream view.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    These bar stewards are particularly insidious because they pose as a professional organisation when they are nothing of the sort.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Well, I mistook one grouping of pediatricians from another. No idea that such a thing would occur.

    No, you mistook a hate group run by and for bigots for a professional organisation.
  • This one is from the UK. They also sound reasonable. Their focus appears to be to not confirm or not confirm trans too soon with their children.
  • Apparently not everyone thinks so.

    Seriously, the fact they call transgender a "biologically impossible situation" should be your first clue that these people are not reasonable people.

    It took me about 30 seconds to Google this. Is 30 seconds of due diligence really too much trouble?

  • We've found unreasonable things in just about everything. Which is a reason to raise to discussion. The narrative from this group of parents seems to parallel the experience of cousin's family: you raise question and there's instant affirmation and we think, support in such a way that blocks reasonable discernment. There's no waiting period for medications by the way. It's instantly offered. And surgery is a matter of waiting list. Not any discernment period.

    There do not seem to be any balanced perspectives on children. Adults aren't the same.
  • Certainly not the position here, where an extended period of living as a person of the proposed gender is required before any surgical or hormonal treatment can be commenced. I'm not sure if that is by legislative regulation or ethics, but certainly a medical practitioner who went straight ahead as you suggest would be in serious problems before a medical tribunal.
  • @NOprophet_NØprofit your family's experiences are likely to be because as their young person follows the pattern described on the Mermaids site (link):
    But I’ve never seen any signs
    Some children or teens will actively try to hide the way they feel as they are aware that it is not widely accepted. The pressure to conform in society is immense. Often the signs can be as simple as your teen becoming very depressed but refusing to talk to you about how they’re feeling, or your child having a large number of close friends being what you perceive to be the opposite sex. Teenagers are often afraid that divulging information about their gender variance will result in their parents disowning them, and unfortunately we do support a number of teens who are in such an unpleasant situation. The important thing is that they will talk to you when they are ready and will be incredibly grateful for your support.

  • Yes the mermaids site. This doesn't seem to fit. Unless a young person may hide it also from themselves. The possibility to exclude past and psychiatric history from school starting age forward from the gender clinic, and them to think it irrelevant has astonished.
  • The pressure to conform in society is immense. Often the signs can be as simple as your teen becoming very depressed but refusing to talk to you about how they’re feeling,

    How children and young people deal with not being able to conform varies, depressed could describe some young people, "acting out" or rebellious behaviours could be another way of describing other young people's attempts to deal with things.

    You have described rebellious behaviours and parents who are not happy about a diagnosis. If there is a past psychiatric history of rebellious behaviour, it may have been understood as part of the diagnosis. If your family is as unhappy as you seem to be about a young person transgendering, then it is highly likely that the child or young person sought and received counselling and help long before any transitioning happened, and the parents were not informed. None of that would have needed to be public knowledge until the transitioning started.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    They also sound reasonable.

    No, they don't. From their front page: "We are also concerned about legislation which places transgender rights above the right to safety for girls and young women in public bathrooms and changing rooms." If that doesn't raise a red flag, what does? Their founder is an "accredited communication skills trainer," whatever that is. They're an advocacy group, not a scientific one, and they look dodgy to say the least.
  • edited September 2018
    No. Counselling is private pay in Canada. And unregulated. Anyone can call themselves a counsellor. Psychotherapy is grey. Psychology is a licensed profession, and mostly private pay and expensive. Medical consent for psychology is required which is technically 16, but psychological consent may stretch this to earlier if the psych is willing to risk professional complaints. The parents would have accepted the sexuality if it had been explored with the counselling that they paid for starting pre-school. Counselling is ~$100 per hour, psychology twice that or more. So didn't occur independently.

    A problem with transgender is that everything seems to be a sign that the child has always been this way, and it becomes the self-confirming explanation. Reminds me of the discreditted Courage to Heal, Judith Herman book, where everything is interpreted as a sign of sexual abuse Now the same with trans. Drug abuse? Self harm? Failing to do homework? weight gain or loss? depression? anxiety? dreams about it? all are apparently signs of trans. And this is starts apparently before the child has a sense of gender, latent and hidden apparently.

    edit: x-post w/ Ruth: this is an empirical question that there seems to be no data on: is there any info that anyone has been put at risk or not? We may expect not, but is there data or not? It appears that parents are simply being told things based on opinion in absence of data.
  • That's not what I'm saying based on what I know of how it works in the UK. When you link to a UK site and apply understanding from a different system, no, it may well not link up.

    I am commenting on how this works in the English jurisdiction following links to UK sites. If Canada works differently, maybe it's not going to be profitable to have this conversation on an international message board using international comparisons, as those systems do not seem to be comparable. But that also says finding US and UK sites may also not be helpful to your situation.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    It may also be easier to have a even-minded evidence-based discussion after time has passed. Processing immediately is hard.
  • There are a ton of transphobic websites around, and they often are disguised as advice centres, and the like, but as others have said, the tell-tale signs are usually quickly apparent, for example, talking immediately about toilets and changing rooms is usually an indication of transphobia. Also, 'we are a group of parents who question the teaching of gender ideology in schools', and the like, should send a red flashing sign. I think in the UK, sticking to the NHS is best policy, although there may be long queues.
  • Our experience is that almost everything that is critical of trans and trans-promotion gets labelled transphobic. We continue to look for balanced resources, not promotional resources. 4th Wave Now also seems to have some points to make. No doubt because the site says this "The purpose of this site is to give voice to an alternative to the dominant trans-activist and medical paradigm currently being touted by the media." it's automatically transphobic? Don't think so.

  • Rapid-onset gender dysphoria in adolescents and young adults: A study of parental reports is the article that the above link refers to. Social contagion appears to be a factor with rapid onset transgender in young people. Not all, some, and may be responsible for increase in proportional numbers. Is this also to be labelled transphobic?
  • Washington Post article about 4th Wave Now parents asking paediatricians questions, aggressively.

    Why are you trying to find sceptical sites? Why not look for relevant research rather than pressure groups?
  • 4th Wave Now also seems to have some points to make.

    Going by their current front page, their main point seems to be taking offense at the critical examination given to the ROGD paper you linked to in your subsequent post. The criticism seems valid to me. I find it hard to justify creating a new diagnostic category of "rapid-onset gender dysphoria" based on a study that did not directly examine anyone who allegedly has such a condition.

    The Brown Daily Herald (the campus newspaper of the researcher's academic institution) details some pretty glaring methodological flaws.
    “The three websites (that Littman posted to) all have ties (to) organizations and people that promote conversion therapy and reject gender identity,” wrote Brynn Tannehill, who has written widely about transgender experiences, including her own, in a follow-up email to The Herald. “The fact that she did not acknowledge the bias of these websites, and the effects that this would have on the data, clearly distorts whatever conclusions you may find. That’s flat-out bad research,” she said.

    Multiple other experts interviewed for this article agreed with Tannehill, adding that it was unfair to draw conclusions about transgender adolescents and their experiences based on parent experiences.

    “The data is not presented as parents’ thoughts, feelings and perceptions of youth experience, but is extrapolated to ‘this is what happened to these youth, this is their experience,’” said Michelle Forcier, professor of pediatrics and clinician educator. “Anyone who has kids or takes care of kids knows that parent perception doesn’t accurately tell you what that adolescent’s experience is.”

    In short, if your point is "how dare you question my methodology and/or motives?!?" then I think we've already gotten the points they're trying to make.
  • edited September 2018
    Because much is pressure groups in this area isn't it? The second link I posted, to the study, reports some data.

    Aggressive questions may be required, given the info in the article which a parallels our experience:
    The majority of parents were reasonably sure or certain that their child misrepresented or omitted key parts of their history to their therapists and physicians. In some cases, the misrepresentation of one’s history may simply be a deliberate act by a person who is convinced that transition is the only way that they will feel better and who may have been coached that lying is the only way to get what they think they need. For others, the misrepresentation may not be a conscious act.
  • Aggressive questions may be required, given the info in the article which a parallels our experience:
    The majority of parents were reasonably sure or certain that their child misrepresented or omitted key parts of their history to their therapists and physicians. In some cases, the misrepresentation of one’s history may simply be a deliberate act by a person who is convinced that transition is the only way that they will feel better and who may have been coached that lying is the only way to get what they think they need. For others, the misrepresentation may not be a conscious act.

    I'm not sure that "the majority of parents were reasonably sure or certain that their child misrepresented or omitted key parts of their history to their therapists and physicians" necessarily translates as "children are misrepresenting or omitting key parts of their history". The idea that parents the automatic experts on the children's gender and sexual identity would seem to be a conceit as old as the closet.
  • NPNP- Counseeling is regulated in three provinces: Quebec, NB and NS. https://www.ccpa-accp.ca/profession/
  • Ruth wrote: »
    From their front page: "We are also concerned about legislation which places transgender rights above the right to safety for girls and young women in public bathrooms and changing rooms." If that doesn't raise a red flag, what does?
    Ruth: this is an empirical question that there seems to be no data on: is there any info that anyone has been put at risk or not?
    There is, of course, no such thing as "no risk" (I feel some of my presentations on risk perception and communication coming on). There is a small minority people who would seek to harm others, in this instance young women and girls. There will be men who force their way into toilets and changing rooms, there will be women who have every right to be there and assault other women or girls. I can't see any reason to think that trans-people are more likely to assault other people, so stopping them from using the toilet doesn't provide an obvious route to reducing risks of assault.

    The actual risks are very small, and banning some people from toilets won't change those risks. What the various transphobic groups do do with their incessant bleating about toilets is change the perception of risk, making people think that there are substantial risks relating to letting people use the toilet. What these people do is scare-mongering, and likely to cause harm as a result of their actions - both to trans-people who face increased rates and severity of discrimination, and to women and girls who become overly cautious about using safe spaces.
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Trae Crowder addressed the bathroom issue rather eloquently a couple of years ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov-ocQpQtrw#
  • I suspect people who cite "bathroom safety" are no more concerned with any real or perceived dangers than people who cite security concerning burkhas are really concerned about security.
  • From the Washington Post article (link) the paediatrician, Michelle Forcier, was asked to reflect on the debate and said:
    There seems to be lots of bias, misinformation and making statements about “data” that are not supported in the actual medical literature. I am also always struck by how many persons without gender expertise, nor significant experience with a cohort of gender patients, have such strong, absolute opinions.
    <snip>
    Finally, we make no assumptions about patients, so [we] need to hear their stories, learn more about their experiences and retain humility, respect and a hopefulness that all youth deserve to be appreciated as their authentic selves, have a safe and loving home, and have caring, knowledgeable, and respectful providers helping them achieve their gender and other health goals.

    From the research paper I linked to, which was 1) Peer reviewed, not an online publication, and 2) a review of meeting where an interested group reviewed the research to date, 2016, and suggested research areas to be developed:
    The behavioral and emotional problems of children with gender dysphoria have been fairly consistent in the extant literature. The data come from sites outside of the United States: Canada, Netherlands, United Kingdom and Germany, again highlighting the need for studies conducted within the United States. Children with gender variance show both increased internalizing and externalizing behavioral and emotional problems compared to non-referred controls. ... In another Dutch study on 105 adolescents it was found that, according to DSM-IV criteria, anxiety disorders occurred in 21%, mood disorders in 12.4% and disruptive disorders in 11.4%.
    That section refers to mostly depression and anxiety disorders in all the international studies, but also showed disruptive disorders in a significant percentage of gender dysphoric individuals.
  • Washington Post article about 4th Wave Now parents asking paediatricians questions, aggressively.

    Why are you trying to find sceptical sites? Why not look for relevant research rather than pressure groups?

    That's what sceptics do. Confirmation bias, ahoy. Usually, any rational arguments are pointless, as they will be dismissed in favour of prejudice. I don't know the situation in other countries, but it seems that in the UK at the moment, trans bashing is low level, although the right wing trash media are of course capable of turning on hysteria, as with vaccination. I think the NHS has kept calm about the issue, although no doubt there are some hostile GPs, and resources are stretched.
  • It's a little different than that. Just because a 14-year-old girl says she’s male out of the blue without any other indicatinos doesn’t always mean she’s going to feel that way next year.

    The confirmation bias appear to us to be on the validating side of transgender, without adequate assessment, specifically in the case of children. The Globe and Mail, the most prominent Canadian newspaper provided this article: Why the surge in gender dysphoria among teenage girls?

    Which seems to summarize the issues reasonable to us with the group of teen girls of high school age:
    ... “rapid-onset gender dysphoria" (ROGD). It develops during or soon after puberty and mainly affects girls with no previous signs of childhood gender dysphoria . Many, however, do have a history of mental illness, and some are on the autism spectrum.
    with additional comments that it affects multiple girls within a peer group, and
    some parents describe their daughters binge-watching YouTube transition videos. It is plausible that online content may encourage vulnerable individuals to believe that nonspecific symptoms and vague feelings should be interpreted as gender dysphoria stemming from a transgender condition,

    Why would there not be social learning "social contagion". And why would something as complex as gender identity be contributed to from multiple sources. I think the thing is entirely different for a child who has expressed trans from early years, consistently, and from adults who have lived closeted up with it hidden but experienced it ongoing.
  • You do realize that article is by Margaret Wente? Apart from being a well known right-wing contrarian (which I don't hold against her, necessarily), and being about as intellectually lazy as a tree sloth (which I do), she has also had a bee in her bonnet about trans stuff literally for decades and has never met an anti-trans idea she didn't like.

    As Croesus explained above, the study she cited has serious methodological flaws. The author reached out to a bunch of parents who were unhappy about their kids identifying as trans, and then apparently took these parents' reactions entirely at face value as accounts of what was happening with their kids. Apparently completely ignoring the well-known fact that often parents don't take it well when their kids come out as LGBT. She might as well have interviewed a bunch of unhappy parents and concluded that being gay or lesbian is just a passing phase.
  • Is there validity to ad hominem criticism of a reporter who reports on a commonly occurring problem: re teens appearing to be influenced by other teens and social media? I've read the article referenced, and referred to it above. It was peer reviewed and apparently will be re-reviewed in response to the pressures. There are sampling bias and other problems and the author did claim anything definitive: these are issues parents of teens are particularly discussing, so it has legs beyond the claims of the author. There's an epidemiological problem, with the occurrence of in raw numbers, and parental and family concern of directions being followed without adequate assessment. I thought the comparison to eating disorders was interesting, and have also seen information about social contagion with self-harm - cutting particularly.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited September 2018
    Possible tangent alert

    I haven't been following this this thread, but I think this story from the Guardian is significant. IMHO whatever one thinks about all the other issues involved in transgender, it's difficult to disagree with these statements from it.
    “In my view, any man who has committed a serious sexual or violent offence against women, who then wants to transfer but has not gone through the whole process, still has a penis and still has male hormones, should not be put into a women’s prison. There may be a case for having separate provision; that is a debate to be had.”
    (ibid. Frances Crook, Howard League for Penal Reform)
    and
    "“Almost half of trans women prisoners are sex offenders. We urgently need to start prioritising the safeguarding of women and girls over the feelings of male-bodied people.”
    (ibid. Pilgrim Tucker)

    Not being that familiar with this subject, I'd be quite interested if there are any sound counter-arguments, since as I've implied, at the moment I don't think there are.


    By the way, I've checked so as to make sure these quotations comply with ss 29 and 30 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 as to fair dealing.
  • The other relevant quotation from that article is:
    The Ministry of Justice has apologised in White’s case and said previous offending history was not taken into account. Requests for transfer from prisoners whose legal gender does not accord with their self-identified gender are normally assessed by a transgender case board, “which should consider all previous offending history”, but this was not carried out in this case.
    The article goes on to say that there have been several men in a similar situation turned down from transferring from men's prisons, the application of the rules has been patchy.

    This problem that sexually predatory men could abuse changes in the transgendering process did come up earlier in the thread. The problem isn't with transgender people, it's with the abusive sexually predatory men, who are exploiting a situation for their own ends, and making everything harder for everyone else.
  • There was an article a few years ago that some young gay men resented their being gay, and took their resentment out in attacking other gays. Is it possible that some transgender men similarly resent their being transgender and this is why they sexually attack women?
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Is it possible that some transgender men similarly resent their being transgender and this is why they sexually attack women?
    A transgender man is a man who has a female body. The people in the cases I believe we're talking about identify as trans-women.

  • It seems like a non-story, if prisons are required to carry out risk assessments, and can turn down requests for transfer to a women's prison. This is all explained in the Guardian article.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited September 2018
    Dafyd wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Is it possible that some transgender men similarly resent their being transgender and this is why they sexually attack women?
    A transgender man is a man who has a female body. The people in the cases I believe we're talking about identify as trans-women.

    Sorry, I was meaning a man who was transgender in orientation (is that the right word?), had done nothing about it but was rejecting what he felt.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    edited September 2018
    Is there validity to ad hominem criticism of a reporter who reports on a commonly occurring problem: re teens appearing to be influenced by other teens and social media?

    I was responding to what I understood to be an argument to authority -- i.e., it's in the Globe and Mail, therefore it must have some claim to validity. To be frank, I don't think that's the case when Margaret Wente is involved. She has a long history of being lazy and careless with facts, and also a long history of using her column to promote an anti-trans agenda. (The first part of that sentence is an assessment you don't have to agree with if you don't want to, but the second part is a simple matter of fact you can verify by searching the Globe's archives.) Her approach to the ROGD study is typical: she found a study that confirmed her prejudices, and presented it as fact without bothering to check on its basic methodological validity.

    You do realize that when you refer above to a "commonly occurring problem"' you're assuming the basic validity of a study that appears, at least at first glance, to be methodologically flawed at a fundamental level?

    At the end of the day this is really about checking the reliability of your sources. There are people and organizations out there who pretty clearly wish that trans people didn't exist. But they don't usually wear "we hate trans people" signs on their foreheads. Some of them work pretty hard at appearing to be reasonable people.
  • edited September 2018
    Marsupial wrote: »
    Is there validity to ad hominem criticism of a reporter who reports on a commonly occurring problem: re teens appearing to be influenced by other teens and social media?

    I was responding to what I understood to be an argument to authority -- i.e., it's in the Globe and Mail, therefore it must have some claim to validity. To be frank, I don't think that's the case when Margaret Wente is involved. She has a long history of being lazy and careless with facts, and also a long history of using her column to promote an anti-trans agenda. (The first part of that sentence is an assessment you don't have to agree with if you don't want to, but the second part is a simple matter of fact you can verify by searching the Globe's archives.) Her approach to the ROGD study is typical: she found a study that confirmed her prejudices, and presented it as fact without bothering to check on its basic methodological validity.
    Nope, wasn't suggesting argument from authority, never occurred to me. It was that this is a hot issue, now getting some national press coverage. I don't know the author at all. Don't generally read this newspaper. I expected that the author would report about the study, and I found that she provided a summary generally consistent with my reading of the study as written.

    And no, it's not about her reaction to the Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria study, its that she reported on it. And no, she didn't find a study to confirm her prejudices, it's about the study I previously posted in this thread about which had gotten negative press and what appears to be interference from a community with an agenda itself, but is the first study which attempted to understand the "social contagion" aspect to this, with comparison to other things which are socially contagious for teens. The methodological issues are addressed within the article, and the authors also commented about the limitations. The real story is how the article which questions (a) the nature of assessment for transgender expression (b) the reason that it is increasing in number of, particularly teen girls.
    Marsupial wrote: »
    You do realize that when you refer above to a "commonly occurring problem"' you're assuming the basic validity of a study that appears, at least at first glance, to be methodologically flawed at a fundamental level?
    No that's not it. The methodological limitations are stated in the article, and my read is that the author raises some legitimate questions regarding the adequacy of assessment of the expression of other-genderedness.
    Marsupial wrote: »
    At the end of the day this is really about checking the reliability of your sources. There are people and organizations out there who pretty clearly wish that trans people didn't exist. But they don't usually wear "we hate trans people" signs on their foreheads. Some of them work pretty hard at appearing to be reasonable people.
    This is a statement which extends what I commented about and what the article in the Globe commented about and what the published study commented about. A central limitation is that this is about rapid onset in dependent teens and has nil to do with adult and later teens whose identity is secure, are functioning as independent actors in the world, and have lived out, for an extended period their felt gender. The research article points out that the rapid onset group is being validated in their early teens, when many other aspects of identity are under development, being questioned and are not solid. And that validation is ignoring other aspects of mental health and social relations.

    The bottom line question is whether we can accept or at least hold as not determined, whether there is a social influence aspect to the increase, particularly in teen girls, of the wish to be the other gender. And second, whether we can understand that a group of parents believe that those who are validating the transgender orientation of their children are not doing complete assessments and are wanting to ignore aspects of the developmental and mental health history of these children. This experience as discussed parallels that of my extended family.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    Margaret Wente is not a reporter. She is a columnist who writes opinion pieces for the Globe. (For our non-Canadian friends: think of someone with half the viciousness of Ann Coulter and none of the charm of Katie Hopkins.) She did not "report" on the study; she commented on it from her own perspective, consistent with an apparent history of being anti-trans.

    Are you certain you are not appealing to authority in this case? A lot of the language in your post, plus your lack of familiarity with Ms Wente's role and bias, seems to suggest a respect for her perspective and for the study that is not supported by evidence.

    If you want to find sources that support your feelings on this, knock yourself out. However it is unlikely that you will find what might be considered credible sources, and you may expect other posters to point that out.



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