Services without licensed ministers.

2»

Comments

  • Just to revert to A Feminine Force's concerns about licences and legalism, in the C of E, at least, the licence held by a Lay Minister is simply confirmation that s/he has completed a certain amount of formal training, and is deemed by his/her Bishop to be competent to carry out whatever duties his/her post might require.

    Nothing legalistic, but just checks and balances, as GG observes.

    IJ
  • I could answer GG's (rhetorical?) question here but I am mindful of where we are - the thread will turn purgatorial and it's not important enough to me to debate it.

    I understand now the context within which the term is used.

    Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to help clarify this context for me. I truly appreciate it.

    AFF
  • You're welcome! We aim to please...
    :wink:

    IJ
  • Well, I was trying to help too, if a bit too rhetorically. I spend far too long in Purgatory so I'm afraid some of my posts elsewhere can become a bit too Purgatorial.

    I think issues around clergy/laity and who can legitimately do what, sheer and when have been chewed over in Purgatory plenty of times already.
  • Leo wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    I'm just having a problem with the word "licensed" - which implies that it would be illegal to do something without a permit.

    I understand the context, I'm just bothered by the legalism.

    AFF

    It is against church law, not secular law. So there could not be criminal proceedings in a secular court.

    Canon law ia part of the law of the land.

    Apparently, pre-Codex canon law can be cited in some civil cases in Canada as part of an argument relating to decisions in Québec before 1864 when they are based on the Custom of Paris and may be relevant to the interpretation of Cardinal Richelieu's 1627 Ordinance, which is one of Canada's constitutional documents but, aside from these really obscure and rarely relevant considerations, it's not.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thank A the A. Useful stuff to salt away in my folder of the serious but trivial.

    Looking back to Leo's post, canon law is the law of the land of the England part of the UK. It's not in the Wales, Scotland or Northern Island parts. I'm not sure about the Channel Isles and Isle of Man, which are crown dependencies. At at a rough guess I'd say almost certainly not the Channel Isles as they are the last remaining parts of the Duchy of Normandy. Possibly also Denmark and Norway, but not Sweden or Finland since disestablishment. Italy? Leo has not yet offered any information about other places where the canon law of a local church is the law of the land.
  • I also wonder if canon law has some limited civil application in Alsace-Lorraine, where the 1805 concordat between Rome and Napoleon still applies-- but if it does, it likely only applies to school issues and patronage of bishoprics and canonries. It almost certainly will not result in the imprisonment of clergy for wearing maniples which is, I believe, contrary to the GIRM. Still, it would be fun to see a French film on this, perhaps with Sophie Marceau as a debauched canon lawyer defending a curate who might have been overzealous in his practice of baroque vesture.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I also wonder if canon law has some limited civil application in Alsace-Lorraine, where the 1805 concordat between Rome and Napoleon still applies-- but if it does, it likely only applies to school issues and patronage of bishoprics and canonries. It almost certainly will not result in the imprisonment of clergy for wearing maniples which is, I believe, contrary to the GIRM. Still, it would be fun to see a French film on this, perhaps with Sophie Marceau as a debauched canon lawyer defending a curate who might have been overzealous in his practice of baroque vesture.

    Some more interesting trivia, thank you. That could make a good film.

    A quick check in Wiki shows that in Luxembourg, the state has a say in the appointment of clergy and some administrative matters and makes a contribution to the budget of the church in return. As it's not limited to the Catholic church, it seems unlikely to me that the canon law of any church covered by the arrangement is part of the law of the land.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Leo has not yet offered any information about other places where the canon law of a local church is the law of the land.
    Since the OP is about a situation in England, and since Leo often seems to post terse responses, I took him to be saying "Canon law is part of the law of the land [here in England where this new initiative will be implemented]."


  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    Yes - I don't know about other countries.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Leo has not yet offered any information about other places where the canon law of a local church is the law of the land.
    Since the OP is about a situation in England, and since Leo often seems to post terse responses, I took him to be saying "Canon law is part of the law of the land [here in England where this new initiative will be implemented]."

    Agreed as to OP, but as usual, the thread had spread well beyond that, and it in that context that Leo posted. I see he is now acknowledging a limitation (but Leo, is England a country on its own, or part of the larger country of the UK? I'd speak of Aust as a country but not my state of NSW as being one. And that's in a properly federal system. Oh, the scope for discussion.)
  • I think what Leo meant was that its part of the law in England, but not in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
  • Which have Anglican churches of their own, in communion with, but not part of, the Church of England.

    There exist, of course, the Church of Ireland, the Church in Wales, and the Scottish Episcopal Church (on all of whom be peace and grace).

    IJ
  • But whatever canon law the Scottish episcopal church may have, it is not the law of the land in Scotland, no more than is the canon law of the Catholic church the law of the land.

    T here is greater freedom for these communities in Scotland. For example the Catholic hierarchy is allowed to retain the preReformation titles of the bishoprics such as Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh and the Episcopal church in Scotland also retains the titles of the pre Reformation bishoprics. In England the Anglican Church has a legal claim for example to the title of Bishop of London and that is why the RC bishop has the title of Archbishop of Westminster.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Some aspects of church law - and it's church law more than canon law - are part of the law of England. The most frequently encountered example is probably faculty jurisdiction and the way these are litigated and reported. Also the various synods take their status and processes from law rather than the system of constitutional structures that apply to other charities. There are permutations under which non-compliance with church/canon law may well invalidate a marriage but I don't know of a recent case where this has been tested in court. Trainee clergy are warned not to take the risk.

    However, as others have correctly already pointed out, an unlicensed person preaching is at no risk of being prosecuted in any court.

    Although the Church in Wales was disestablished in April 1920 (by legislation passed six years previously) I am not sure how far it is strictly true to say that its own law to this day is not part of the law of Wales*. The same might also be true of other churches that amalgamated or done various other things under the authority of various Acts of Parliament. There have, for example, been a number of assorted Methodist Acts over the years.

    *England and Wales are one legal jurisdiction but some law only applies in one, some in the other, and most in both.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I think what Leo meant was that its part of the law in England, but not in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    Perhaps that's what he meant, but far from what he said. Thanks to all others for their recent posts - no surprises there save for Enoch's suggestion that C of E law may still apply in Wales, something to think about.
  • To all intents and purposes, nobody's really noticed that the Church in Wales is Disestablished.
  • The poor old Scottish Episcopal Church gets overlooked. They were even forgotten about when Welby organised a pan-Anglican shindig recently.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    To all intents and purposes, nobody's really noticed that the Church in Wales is Disestablished.

    That's why I drew the limitation that I did on the application of canon law as the law of the land in England but none of the other constituents of the UK, nor in the crown dependencies.
  • Getting back to the OP, and the Lincoln Homilies Project, I mentioned this to our Madam Sacristan.

    She reckoned that the questions for thought/discussion might usefully be put on the parish news bulletin/pew-sheet for that particular Sunday, as something for peeps to take away, and think about during the week.

    I've bookmarked the relevant webpage as a useful resource, should I be called upon to preach at short notice, and find myself devoid of ideas. Yes, I've been duly trained, Licensed to Preach etc. etc., but that doesn't guarantee that at any given time I can come up with the goods. Help is always welcome!

    IJ
  • Amen.
  • AlbertusAlbertus Shipmate
    edited August 2018
    Gee D wrote: »
    I think what Leo meant was that its part of the law in England, but not in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    Perhaps that's what he meant, but far from what he said. Thanks to all others for their recent posts - no surprises there save for Enoch's suggestion that C of E law may still apply in Wales, something to think about.

    One more post on this tangent: It's not part of the law of the land in Wales- CinW courts aren't the Queen's courts, as CofE courts are- and members of the CinW, as defined in its Constitution, are bound by CinW law as members of an association (not sure that's the technical term). Churchwardens, Parochial Church Councillors etc, have to declare that they will be bound by the law of the CinW. There are one or two legal hangovers from Establishment- the right of parishioners (by residence) to be married in the parish church and buried in its churchyard if it has one, the validity per se of CinW marriages (like CofE ones), and the requirement for Welsh prisons to have at least a CinW chaplain. But those are all now statutory rather than canon law provisions, I think. (The marriage law provisions caused one or two surprises to the CinW itself when same sex marriage came in in E&W in 2013, but that's another story.)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Thanks Albertus, save for the last couple of points (which I did not know of) , that is what I had thought
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited August 2018
    Looking back at the OP, I for one would far prefer something like this than have what we sometimes get from our chap, which is an admission that he found the Gospel of the day "difficult" and that "I've written a sermon but I really don't think its very good". Getting that from the pulpit surely isn't the best way to provide priestly leadership to God's people.

    On the subject of licensed (or not) lay people "leading" worship: the daily offices at our place during the week only happen because of lay people (see my post in Evensong).
  • Lots of services can be led by lay people, legitimately, and as a way of keeping churches running or services going, it is a positive way forward. Things I have led legitimately are labyrinth, evening and/or morning prayer, prayer walks and café church sessions. Others also led lay-led monthly morning worship services, compline and taize. All of which are ways of keeping a church active, open and available for people to come in and use the building and maintaining a prayerful and welcoming presence.
  • The sheer variety of services which can be led by licensed lay ministers (or other laity, of course) is one of the great blessings of the Church of England - I speak as one of that beleaguered institution's Blue-Scarfed-Menaces (aka Lay Readers).

    I don't doubt that other denominations find the same!

    grin:

    IJ
  • But I cannot think of a denomination where you'd have to be authorised to lead any of the services Curiosity Kills mentions. Most prohibitions on unauthorised people leading worship centre on either proclamation of the Word (preaching/prophesying) and administration of the sacraments.
  • GarasuGarasu Shipmate
    I've been told that morning prayer is for the priest but may be shared with the people. Is this right?
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Garasu wrote: »
    I've been told that morning prayer is for the priest but may be shared with the people. Is this right?

    That's a very clericalist conception. Some people might very well think that. Cranmer's vision was to restore the daily office as the work of the people.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Garasu wrote: »
    I've been told that morning prayer is for the priest but may be shared with the people. Is this right?
    No. By whom? All may say Morning Prayer. The only thing in it that is reserved to a priest is uttering the absolution in its full form.

    When one turns to Common Worship, it encourages all to use Daily Prayer and contains explanations of ways to do so.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    edited August 2018
    In our diocese you can take the preaching module of Reader training without the rest. You are then licenced to preach in any Anglican church in the diocese.

    Of course, if your services are mostly Eucharists this is of limited use. But last week Hugal preached at a church where the clergy was away, and the entire service was led by a lay person (presumably a Reader but there were no robes or scarves). The guy led hymns at the organ, songs at the piano, most of the rest from the chancel steps, and then went to the altar for ‘communion by extension’ (I think that’s what it’s called? ie the vicar had consecrated the elements in advance.)

    If I had known he would be so busy I would have offered to at least play the offertory hymn!
  • O, I'm sure he was a Reader - we are good at multi-tasking (and I have the similar job of presiding and preaching this Sunday, at what will be Holy Communion by Extension). His cassock, surplice, scarf etc. may well have rather inhibited his movements as he leapt from place to place to place!

    Fortunately, I shall have (God willing) the assistance of an organist, also readers of lessons and leaders of prayers...
    :sweat_smile:

    IJ
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 2018
    Well, I was indeed assisted by my rod and my staff (Madam Sacristan, Madam Organist, Sir Sidesman, and Madam Lector), but I did wonder if perhaps I should have attached a broom to my walking-stick as I tottered around the chancel!

    I did, of course, vest correctly in cassock, cotta, and Blue Scarf, in accordance with Canon.

    We were all highly amused, however, by the irony whereby Father Helping-Us-Out was called upon to celebrate the Eucharist yesterday at our neighbouring charismatic-evo parish.

    Apparently, they have been relying rather too much recently on Communion by Extension (!), as they have only one priest in post at the moment, and have thereby incurred the wrath of the Bishop's Chaplain (not the Rev. Obadiah Slope, but, I suspect, a direct descendant of his).

    It happened, therefore, that Our Place, with a long Anglo-Catholic tradition of regular Sunday sacramental worship, had Communion by Extension led by a mere laic (Me), whereas the next-door evo parish (which doesn't offer the Eucharist every Sunday, anyway) had to Do It Properly.....

    ISTM that our dear Bishop (or his Chaplain, at least) might have been gently suggesting where the other parish's priorities should lie, IYSWIM.

    :lol:

    IJ
  • ClimacusClimacus Shipmate
    edited August 2018
    perhaps I should have attached a broom to my walking-stick as I tottered around the chancel!
    Surely a hitherto undiscovered need for overly-long cassocks, bridal-train like perhaps, with tiny brushes... I sense a gap in the market.
  • You may have something there, but you might also need to patent some small Daemons, Imps, or (more appropriately) Cherubim, to collect the swept-up detritus...
    :wink:

    IJ
  • That is where Sunday School children could come in useful ...

    Or perhaps not (they tend to be Detritus-creators).
  • In this corner of His Vineyard, one cannot lead weekday morning/evening prayer in public more than once in a period of three months without having received a basic level of authorisation (or being a Churchwarden).
Sign In or Register to comment.