Church Dedications

Would you assume that a dedication to "All Saints" is an indicator of higher altitude liturgical practices? I would have said not, whilst Wikipedia suggests that it's the second most common dedication in the CofE. A quick google shows up many examples that contradict the thesis.

Beyond the actual statistics, would folk wisdom assume that All Saints' Church would of an 'advanced' character?

We are an A-C All Saints' Church, and a colleague insists that our dedication is, per se, a signpost to knowledgeable church crawlers. I am not convinced.
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Comments

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited September 1
    I'm with you on this ... but I'm not an Anglican. We have two local (linked) All Saints' churches, one is pretty low while the other, which meets in the church school is Evangelical. But this is Wales (Monmouth diocese), not England.

    Of course, churches can move up or down the candle over time, so All Saints could have been chosen for a reason when a church began.

    BTW. the Diocese has a Church of St Oudoceus. That's cool.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited September 1
    Qoheleth wrote: »
    Would you assume that a dedication to "All Saints" is an indicator of higher altitude liturgical practices? ...
    No. A lot of dedications go back to the middle ages, and are no indicator of church style now at all.

    I've never heard any suggestion that that might even apply with more recent builds. "All Saints" can be a bit 'we can't think who to dedicate this to, so we might as well go for the lot' sort of choice.

    There's a church not that far from here dedicated to Sts Quiricus and Julietta.
  • Our con evo neighbour is St Mary's, aka Notre Dame de [Placename]
  • The church where I attended the first eleven years of my life, where I was baptized and confirmed, was All Saints'. A snake couldn't have crawled under it, it was so low.

    But I've also known a couple of middle-of-the-candle All Saints' churches, and one quite up there. (These were all in the U.S. -- the other side of the Pond might be different.)
  • One of the churches I attended growing up was to have been All Saints but a dedication planned for a feast of Mary led to it being St. Mary And... It being the daughter church to Holy Trinity was helpful to the scouts when it came to naming cub packs. It was, however, pretty MOTR, particularly compared to the parish church. In concession to the first half of its dedication it did have a statue of Our Lady opposite the door, but owing to a historic accident she bore a piece of sticking plaster across her nose (I wonder if a faculty should have been sought for that repair job).
  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    Our Lady of Perpetual Succour might indicate churchpersonship.
  • Church of Scotland, perhaps?????
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited September 2
    <snip>But this is Wales (Monmouth diocese), not England...<snip> the Diocese has a Church of St Oudoceus. That's cool.

    I know the parish! Llandogo with Whitebrook and Tintern Parva. I seem to remember that the churchyard of the church in Tintern (a long way from the Abbey) went right down to the river and so the incumbent had fishing rights ...

    The diocese of Chichester boasts a CofE St Mary Our Lady, a St Leodegar's, St Wulfran's and a St Symphorian.

  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited September 2
    Wow! There is a very good Restaurant-with-rooms at Whitebrook. I stayed there years ago, although it's now under different ownership.
  • Wow! There is a very good Restaurant-with-rooms at Whitebrook. I stayed there years ago, although it's now under different ownership.

    The Crown at Whitebrook (now just called the Whitebrook). I think it was the first restaurant in the Principality to get a Michelin star back in the early 1980s. The owner at the time was churchwarden and the catering at parish "dos" was quite something. I have fond memories of some amazing canapes after an induction in ? 1984.
  • One of the churches I attended growing up was to have been All Saints but a dedication planned for a feast of Mary led to it being St. Mary And... It being the daughter church to Holy Trinity was helpful to the scouts when it came to naming cub packs.
    I know this is a tangent, but can you tell me how this was helpful in naming cub packs, or how cub packs are named in the UK?
  • CarysCarys Shipmate
    Wow! There is a very good Restaurant-with-rooms at Whitebrook. I stayed there years ago, although it's now under different ownership.

    The Crown at Whitebrook (now just called the Whitebrook). I think it was the first restaurant in the Principality to get a Michelin star back in the early 1980s. The owner at the time was churchwarden and the catering at parish "dos" was quite something. I have fond memories of some amazing canapes after an induction in ? 1984.

    In Wales please. Use of "Principality" is not favoured amongst Welsh people. We are a country.

    As to dedications, there are some I'd take as suggesting at least a high origin (Holy Cross and Holy Nativity) spring to mind, but even then things can have changed. The most extreme is probably the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Cambridge, where the congregation has outgrown the Round church and moved into a formerly redundant church dedicated to St Andrew (the Great). Though generally referred to as StAG, it is technically the Parish of the Holy Sepulchre. It is not high church!

    Carys
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    One of the churches I attended growing up was to have been All Saints but a dedication planned for a feast of Mary led to it being St. Mary And... It being the daughter church to Holy Trinity was helpful to the scouts when it came to naming cub packs.
    I know this is a tangent, but can you tell me how this was helpful in naming cub packs, or how cub packs are named in the UK?

    I don't know how most places name them (I think some use numbers to distinguish them) but the three dedications enabled the scouts to use them for separate packs - Holy Trinity; St Mary's; All Saints.
  • AndrasAndras Shipmate
    Wales (yes, I too hate and detest the term Principality, which brings up images of the vile Edward I and his thievish, warmongering ways) has a great number of churches named for their founding saints and hermits, many of them found rarely if anywhere else.

    My own church was at one time apparently dedicated to St Michael (one of a sequence of them down a supposed ley-line) and has a beautiful St Michael window, but now carries the historic name of Bledrws, who apparently founded it in the 5th Century.

    And yes, Betws Bledrws ('The Prayer-House of Bledrws') does sound rather special.
  • I don't know how most places name them (I think some use numbers to distinguish them) but the three dedications enabled the scouts to use them for separate packs - Holy Trinity; St Mary's; All Saints.
    Or the can be the "3rd Great Snoring (St. John's-by=the=Puddle)" group.

  • I'm Welsh. I know all about the vile antics of Edward I.

    I use the term principality as my father and grandparents did, which is simply an acknowledgment of our history, particularly that Wales never had a need for a king because our princes elected one of their own as primus inter pares* Yes, I know we are a country, one that has been invaded, pillaged, plundered and defrauded by its eastern neighbour for centuries, and I've made damned sure that my children (half-English) have been brought up knowing all about their Welsh heritage to the extent that my late-lamented used to moan about feeling a foreigner in their own home.

    *first among equals, as you all know
  • SipechSipech Shipmate
    I've never seen any particular correspondence between Anglican church names and how high or low they are. Thinking back a few years, I used to work mid way between churches called All Saints and All Souls. Pretty similar names, but while they were both Anglican, they were at different ends of that particular spectrum.

    Usually, the giveaway as to how high or low is how they refer to communion. If they refer to it as Mass, they're very high; Eucharist would be middle-to-high; Holy Communion is middle; simply calling it Communion or the Lord's Supper would indicate it's nice and low.
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    One of the churches I attended growing up was to have been All Saints but a dedication planned for a feast of Mary led to it being St. Mary And... It being the daughter church to Holy Trinity was helpful to the scouts when it came to naming cub packs.
    I know this is a tangent, but can you tell me how this was helpful in naming cub packs, or how cub packs are named in the UK?

    I don't know how most places name them (I think some use numbers to distinguish them) but the three dedications enabled the scouts to use them for separate packs - Holy Trinity; St Mary's; All Saints.
    Thanks. Interesting. Here (the US), cub packs and scout troops have numbers, though the numbers aren’t necessarily systematic. I have known of some sponsors of troops who requested specific numbers for one reason or another. A pack and troop sponsored by the same church or organization will have the same number, i.e., Troop 321 and Pack 321.

    /Tangent

  • PoppyPoppy Shipmate
    AC is relatively recent. One of the local All Saints churches is nearly 1000 years old so seriously predates the Oxford Movement. Of the three local All Saints two are MotR Anglican and one is probably AC but as he never comes to deanery I wouldn’t know. There are a lot of candles on the altar in the website photo but maybe they had just cleaned the brass.
  • Thanks for all your insights (and tangents). I am vindicated :blush: .
  • AlbertusAlbertus Shipmate
    edited September 3
    Now the point in the OP has been settled, may I continue the Cubs naming tangent for a moment? In SW London there is a scout troop called the 1st Balham & Tooting King of Siam's Own . Does anyone on here have any idea how it got that dedication? (Not the Balham & Tooting bit, obvs.)
  • Albertus wrote: »
    Now the point in the OP has been settled, may I continue the Cubs naming tangent for a moment? In SW London there is a scout troop called the 1st Balham & Tooting King of Siam's Own . Does anyone on here have any idea how it got that dedication? (Not the Balham & Tooting bit, obvs.)

    Sorted that for you.
  • Pity. Wouldn't it have been nice of it had been founded in a pub of that name!
  • 'Nice and low'?

    No indication of preference there then ... ;)
  • Thank you, Qoheleth! (And yes, BT, wouldn't it!)
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    'Nice and low'?

    No indication of preference there then ... ;)

    I thought it was a bit of irony.
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    In rural England (and Wales) most churches date well back to pre-Reformation times, and styles of worship and theology have changed so much since that there can be no possible correlation between their dedication and their ecclesiastical style. It's different in towns and cities though, where many or most churches were built in the Victorian era.

    So for example in this city we have solidly evangelical churches dedicated to biblical saints like Philemon and Cleopas. Solid men preaching muscular Christianity. Whereas the Anglo-Catholics were in touch with their feminine side and we get St Margaret of Antioch (two of them), St Agnes, St Faith.

    But a better (though far from infallible) indicator of churchpersonship is the architecture. Even from the outside, if it looks like a convincing replica of a medieval building (especially one you might find in France or Italy), there is a good chance the interior will be resplendent with screens and statues, and have hidden chapels and intriguingly mysterious corners. Whereas if it is barn-like building, wide and perhaps not very impressive architecturally, you will quite likely find a broad nave, a prominent pulpit and a fairly insignificant-looking communion table. The nave would originally have been crammed full of pews but is now more likely to be carpeted and furnished with comfy chairs and sofas, with a stage to one side set up for a music group and a large screen blocking the view of the sanctuary.

    Many of the great Victorian church architects were Tractarians in their personal belief, and most of them sought to express in their buildings the spirit of the C of E's Catholic heritage. Evangelicals tended to be less concerned with aesthetics and wanted to attract large crowds into their churches to hear sermons. Rather like the Franciscans in mediaeval Italy, they saw their churches predominantly as preaching halls. Hence they turned to the 'rogue' architects (Pevsner's phrase IIRC) who were much more prepared to adapt the Gothic tradition to suit modern needs.

    It would be interesting to hear from our friends in TEC, Australia and elsewhere about the reasons behind their church dedications. I'm sure they will reflect fashions and tendencies too, though probably in a very different way.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited September 4
    A pretty good recent book on church architecture and its "message": https://tinyurl.com/yd8whhc8.

    I know a Victorian church in north London which must have been quite "high" when built, built by Blomfield and full of polychromatic brickwork and the like. It became Evangelical many years ago (?1930s) and everything was sadly) over-painted with dull cream.
  • Holy Trinity Brompton was originally a Victorian high church structure - with amazing stained glass windows, the east window and chancel is now hidden behind screens and stages, but the west window is full of Old Testament stories, partially hidden behind the gallery with ranked seating.
  • angloid wrote: »

    So for example in this city we have solidly evangelical churches dedicated to biblical saints like Philemon and Cleopas. Solid men preaching muscular Christianity. Whereas the Anglo-Catholics were in touch with their feminine side and we get St Margaret of Antioch (two of them), St Agnes, St Faith.

    But a better (though far from infallible) indicator of churchpersonship is the architecture. Even from the outside, if it looks like a convincing replica of a medieval building (especially one you might find in France or Italy), there is a good chance the interior will be resplendent with screens and statues, and have hidden chapels and intriguingly mysterious corners. Whereas if it is barn-like building, wide and perhaps not very impressive architecturally, you will quite likely find a broad nave, a prominent pulpit and a fairly insignificant-looking communion table.

    - I'm not convinced that this argument stands up terribly well to the external architecture of St Faith's. The main road view (shown in the MW picture) is distinctly barn-like.

  • Let me take you to two local churches

    St Andrews
    St Matthews

    One is High Anglican and one is URC but in this case, neither architecture nor type of Saint is a direct indicator of churchmanship. The URC is still pretty stripped back plain inside but is clearly the more expensive building. They were even built by the same architect but as this church was also by the same firm, that does not quite explain it.
  • Well, architects do sometimes abide by their clients' instructions/wishes, I suppose, so the appearance of a church may not necessarily be a clue to churchmanship (which may, as has been mentioned, change over the years in any case).

    I think Sipech had it right:
    Sipech wrote: »
    I've never seen any particular correspondence between Anglican church names and how high or low they are. Thinking back a few years, I used to work mid way between churches called All Saints and All Souls. Pretty similar names, but while they were both Anglican, they were at different ends of that particular spectrum.

    Usually, the giveaway as to how high or low is how they refer to communion. If they refer to it as Mass, they're very high; Eucharist would be middle-to-high; Holy Communion is middle; simply calling it Communion or the Lord's Supper would indicate it's nice and low.

    Not necessarily 100% accurate across the board, but I can think of one or two Reform-type evo churches which do refer to 'The Lord's Supper' (held monthly), whereas Our Place advertises 'Parish Mass' every Sunday.

    Oh, and yes, I thought Sipech's last sentence was ironic, too......
    :blush:

    IJ
  • angloidangloid Shipmate
    Fawkes Cat wrote: »

    - I'm not convinced that this argument stands up terribly well to the external architecture of St Faith's. The main road view (shown in the MW picture) is distinctly barn-like.
    I did say the architecture wasn't an infallible indication. Anyway there are barns and barns.
  • ... I can think of one or two Reform-type evo churches which do refer to 'The Lord's Supper' (held monthly)...
    What about 'The Lord's Supper will be held God Willing....' :wink:


  • I'm with you on this ... but I'm not an Anglican. We have two local (linked) All Saints' churches, one is pretty low while the other, which meets in the church school is Evangelical. But this is Wales (Monmouth diocese), not England.

    Of course, churches can move up or down the candle over time, so All Saints could have been chosen for a reason when a church began.

    BTW. the Diocese has a Church of St Oudoceus. That's cool.

    Oudoceus is the Latin version of a Welsh name which in Mummersher is pronounced 'You dog wee'.
  • Albertus wrote: »
    ... I can think of one or two Reform-type evo churches which do refer to 'The Lord's Supper' (held monthly)...
    What about 'The Lord's Supper will be held God Willing....' :wink:


    O yes - I've seen that on noticeboards, but only on very conservative Free Evangelical type places, not C of E (yet!).

    IJ

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Angloid, Speaking only of Anglicanism in Sydney, and not of other denominations, until very recently it would have been hard to pick any link between churchmanship and dedication. In suburban Sydney, there is St Mary the Virgin at Waverley and it's pretty easy to guess that. In recent years as it slipped down the candle a bit under the baleful episcopacy of ++ Peter Jensen, the additional words "the Virgin" seem to be little used. Dedications to St John aren't much clue unless the full dedication adds "the Evangelist", a good indicator of higher churchmanship. Current usage in Sydney for new churches tends to be something along the lines of Suburb Anglican Church or even Meeting Place.

  • If I may expand it, is a Saturday evening Eucharist indicative of Anglican verticality? I'm travelling and the Anglican church here offers it as well as Sunday. I think I've only seen it in Catholic churches, or in country churches where the priest visits several towns over the weekend.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Yes, it is a marker that the church is at least MOTR. Saturday evening is pretty rare though, save where a priest has a number of churches to preside at on Sunday.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited September 5
    Albertus wrote: »
    What about 'The Lord's Supper will be held God Willing....' :wink:

    That's far too High ... it should be the "Breaking of Bread": https://tinyurl.com/yb22p6tx. (Although the service, being for insiders, might well not be announced on the notice-board at all).

  • LeoLeo Shipmate
    Albertus wrote: »
    ... I can think of one or two Reform-type evo churches which do refer to 'The Lord's Supper' (held monthly)...
    What about 'The Lord's Supper will be held God Willing....' :wink:


    But God wills it every Sunday!
  • Albertus wrote: »
    What about 'The Lord's Supper will be held God Willing....' :wink:

    That's far too High ... it should be the "Breaking of Bread": https://tinyurl.com/yb22p6tx. (Although the service, being for insiders, might well not be announced on the notice-board at all).

    That's the Brethren term , isn't it? (Something I learned on here.) There is something wonderfully Betjemanesque about this kind of language.
  • Thanks Gee D.
  • Many years ago, when confined to my home by a minor but very annoying protracted illness, I whipped out the General Synod (Anglican, of Canada) and used dBaseIII (remember that?) to construct a database of Canadian dedications. Most Canadian churches were built in the Victorian period and the construction push ended in the 1920s, excepting a burst of dedications in the 1950s during suburban expansion, so we have precious few of the idiosyncratic local dedications one finds in the British Isles and, when we do, they are of the Bishop Cronyn Memorial (Diocese of Huron) type.

    We did have one example of popular canonization, where the then parish church in Dereham Township was named Saint Charles, after the highly-respected Charles James Stuart, Bishop of Québec (1826-37).

    Dedications were overwhelmingly of the Saint John and All Saints type, with lots of Matthews and Lukes, and a scattering of other apostles. I do not think that there is any ecclesiastical high/low indication here, partly because there are relatively few Anglo Catholic parishes in Canada. We do have one of the very few Anglican Saint Josephs (Brossard, Diocese of Montréal), and there is a Francis or two (many more in the US).
  • Good Lord you've been productive in your life. Sorry for the illness, but what a way to spend housebound days...
  • Climacus wrote: »
    Good Lord you've been productive in your life. Sorry for the illness, but what a way to spend housebound days...

    I had intended to write up an article, but my .dbf files are on 5¼ floppies and I'd have to find a way to transfer them! I would have needed to probe further to get some details- I'd like to know for whom the Jessie Hardisty Memorial Church in Fort Simpson in the Northwest Territories was named (I've just tried to pull up the website to see if there was any information, but it was down-- however the Fort Smith parish website posts a warning that some desperado is attempting to fraudulently rent out the rectory!!).

    As far as I could figure out from parish foundation dates, there were no apparent patterns. Non-run-of-the-mill dedications tended to be urban from the 1920s and 1950s, possibly to avoid having more than one of a particular dedication in the same city-- so we get Saint Olav, Saint Hilda, or Saint Cyprian. The Saint Augustines, in which I have a particular interest, seem to be primarily but not exclusively late Victorian, possibly named by patristic scholar clergy stuck in the bush.

    No parishes were founded primarily for African Canadians (I gather it was preferred that they hang out at the local Baptist franchise) so we don't have the Saint Philip pattern as in the US. Evangelization of First Peoples Canadians was so haphazard among Anglicans, with the exception of the north and parts of British Columbia, that no patterns could be observed there.

    One fascinating outlier is Toronto's primarily Filipino parish, dedicated to San Lorenzo Ruiz, canonized by John Paul II in 1987; the congregation was non-denominational Baptist but became Anglican in 1991 and now forms a non-territorial parish operating out of Saint Simon's. AFAIK it is the only post-Reformation RC dedication for an Anglican church. Other shipmates may know of others?
  • No; but there is the case of Redland Parish Church in Bristol, which I believe is the only CofE church to have no dedication.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited September 10
    There are a few others - we have one in this Diocese, which, AIUI, was built during the Commonwealth period, and which is now linked with a neighbouring church dedicated to St. Giles, whoever he may have been.

    plaxtol.com/plaxtol-church/

    IJ
  • Interesting!
  • There's another church in our Diocese, I now find, which, although of ancient foundation, seems to have mislaid its dedication somewhere along the line:
    kestonparishchurch.org.uk/History.html

    IJ
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