Transgender

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Comments

  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited August 2019
    Is this a not horrible or horrible person writing something horrible or not horrible?
    https://4thwavenow.com/ article dated 06 Aug 2019, "Waiting", starts with "say you're a mom". No sure what reputation the website / group has. The article seemed to express some meaningful things.

    There doesn’t seem a lot in there about the Mom talking to her child, listening to what they’ve got to say and helping them explore the possibilities of what these choices could mean in both the short and long term ... Mom has both fingers in her ears and is convinced she knows best.

    It’s not horrible, it’s very human and understandable but ... Sooner or later you’re gonna have to get real about them being independent, sentient beings with the right to self determination .., And that whoever said mom knows best sometimes lied.

    Maybe try reading something like Trans Like Me which looks at things from the POV of an actual trans person rather than someone outside looking in being bewildered because this wasn’t what they expected
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    I've just looked at the twitter for that site, as well as at the site itself, its origins, and the kind of people it has linked to and promoted. As I posted earlier:
    "I personally would advocate for us remembering what the boards used to be like when there were anti-gay posters who linked to activist groups like NARTH and to ex-gay testimonies and who expected us to take those stories at face value.

    This is really cut from the same cloth. And again like the ex-gay narratives, we're expected to take at face-value accounts from openly-biased sites, based on dodgy science. The twitter for the site doesn't even bother to hide its animus and a bit of digging around in its archives shows this site was set up to attack trans people from a gender critical standpoint - eg. linking approvingly to blogs which claimed the online trans community were involved in 'cultlike indoctrination of minors'.

    Basically it seems to me like we're back to arguments which amount to 'The gays are converting the children - it's a lifestyle, they just need a psychologist/some appropriate literature to make them realise they are actually straight. Here is an ex-gay narrative - that should clear everything up.'

    Anyone who wants to post such things about transgender issues, should maybe consider what their response would be to the people who used to post this kind of argument from sites advocating against the gay community using ex-gay narratives...





  • edited August 2019
    The disapproval of the link appears to be about the website and author's capability to write the piece. And it appears that it's not possible to do other than support. Which the article notes.

    Disagree completely that the history of anti-gay compares. The medical treatment for transgender with children is the most significant distinction.

    I'll cease on this topic permanently now.
  • And it appears that it's not possible to do other than support. Which the article notes.
    Rubbish. If you have a link that starts from a neutral point, then maybe it gets some looking into. Your links start from prejudice.

  • TubbsTubbs Admin
    edited August 2019
    The disapproval of the link appears to be about the website and author's capability to write the piece. And it appears that it's not possible to do other than support. Which the article notes.

    Disagree completely that the history of anti-gay compares. The medical treatment for transgender with children is the most significant distinction.

    I'll cease on this topic permanently now.

    The misinformation? From memory, the article comments a child can be given hormone therapy after one or two assessments with a therapist. Not sure that’s entirely true.

    The article notes it’s not possible to do anything other than support and then makes a pretty good job of not doing it. Because she knows best and her child is just going through a stage ... Why not read some stuff from trans people who’ve made that journey and are happier now?!
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    The misinformation? From memory, the article comments a child can be given hormone therapy after one or two assessments with a therapist. Not sure that’s entirely true.

    It's not how things work here or in the UK. From an earlier post from NP-NP it does seem the case in his province in Canada.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    edited August 2019
    If you post from hate sites you can't expect to be taken seriously.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Also, anyone who is actually serious about the topic should remember that blockers are intensely different than taking testosterone or estrogen in that blockers have no long-term effects once they are stopped. So anyone can take blockers and then stop and their body will be exactly where it was when they stopped hormonally. In other words, conflating all hormones together is confusing at best and intentionally misleading at worst.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    Tubbs wrote: »
    The misinformation? From memory, the article comments a child can be given hormone therapy after one or two assessments with a therapist. Not sure that’s entirely true.

    Here are the NHS (UK) Treatment Guidelines which suggest a pretty careful process.

  • Louise wrote: »
    If you post from hate sites you can't expect to be taken seriously.
    Sad thing is he is going to leave this conversation thinking that the challenges to his links represent the bias in the "pro-transgender" agenda.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, Purgatory Host
    I did try to make a specific critique, but he didn’t engage with it.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Louise wrote: »
    If you post from hate sites you can't expect to be taken seriously.
    Sad thing is he is going to leave this conversation thinking that the challenges to his links represent the bias in the "pro-transgender" agenda.

    True that. But often we seek out material that reinforces the ideas we’ve already got rather than challenges them. I suspect my book recommendation fell on deaf ears. :disappointed:
  • Gwai wrote: »
    Also, anyone who is actually serious about the topic should remember that blockers are intensely different than taking testosterone or estrogen in that blockers have no long-term effects once they are stopped.

    Is that known to be true? I had understood that some long-term effects were open questions (eg. bone mineralization). It's certainly true that any long-term effects are much smaller, but I wasn't aware that the long-term effects are known to be zero.

    (Your main point stands, of course - I'm just picking nits.)
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    edited August 2019
    Apparently the first blockers were prescribed in this country only 12 years ago, so I think we can assuredly say we do not know long term effects. It's just too early to reliably say we know that. My reading says doctors say they don't know whether there are any long-term bone density effects.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, Purgatory Host
    They have been around longer than that, hormone blockers are prescribed for fibroids amongst other things.
  • Also for precocious puberty, i.e., before 8 or 9 years old. I thought they had been used for 30 years. Presumably, there is research on long term effects.
  • @Doublethink @Tubbs
    I'm not offering criticism of your approach, just commenting on the sad reality.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Louise wrote: »
    If you post from hate sites you can't expect to be taken seriously.
    Sad thing is he is going to leave this conversation thinking that the challenges to his links represent the bias in the "pro-transgender" agenda.

    True that. But often we seek out material that reinforces the ideas we’ve already got rather than challenges them. I suspect my book recommendation fell on deaf ears. :disappointed:

    Not totally Tubbs - I've just reserved it from the library.

    I know very little about trans people and their experiences, so I was looking for something helpful to read as I don't want to inadvertently cause anyone grief due to my ignorance.

    A trans man with whom I was in a study group told me he was going to transition, and I bump into him around town sometimes, but that is my sole experience.
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    edited August 2019
    They have been around longer than that, hormone blockers are prescribed for fibroids amongst other things.

    Point. Only prescribed in the U.S. for blocking puberty 12 years ago. And if anyone can find actual medical studies on puberty blockers and longterm use, please do link. I looked yesterday and found an article (in the Lancet maybe?) that said there was some evidence of bone density being affected. But that one particularly said they had no information about whether it was long term or short term. And that seems to be the question we need answered.
  • For precocious puberty they are time-limited. In other words, treatment stops when the normal age of puberty is reached. I can't find anything on bone density, except warnings. Of course, various right wing and Christian groups produce apocalyptic stuff about trans treatments, our children are in peril from trans activists poisoning them!
  • Many medications come with a health risk. Nearly every one I've taken or looked into.
    That is never the question, though. The question is do the risks outweigh mitigating the problem they are intended to mitigate.
    So small physical risks versus a physically healthy, psychologically damaged, possibly suicidal person.
  • Yes, the right wing and Christian warnings imply that the trans adolescent or child is actually perfectly healthy, but has been warped by trans activists, mad parents, dangerous teachers, and so on. Remove these evil influences and order will be restored.
  • Yes, the right wing and Christian warnings imply that the trans adolescent or child is actually perfectly healthy, but has been warped by trans activists, mad parents, dangerous teachers, and so on. Remove these evil influences and order will be restored.

    Ignoring what the trans people themselves say, especially ones who have transitioned and gone from angst and worse to peace and calm.
  • Huia wrote: »
    Tubbs wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Louise wrote: »
    If you post from hate sites you can't expect to be taken seriously.
    Sad thing is he is going to leave this conversation thinking that the challenges to his links represent the bias in the "pro-transgender" agenda.

    True that. But often we seek out material that reinforces the ideas we’ve already got rather than challenges them. I suspect my book recommendation fell on deaf ears. :disappointed:

    Not totally Tubbs - I've just reserved it from the library.

    I know very little about trans people and their experiences, so I was looking for something helpful to read as I don't want to inadvertently cause anyone grief due to my ignorance.

    A trans man with whom I was in a study group told me he was going to transition, and I bump into him around town sometimes, but that is my sole experience.

    That makes me so happy. I’ve got it on my pile to read for the same reasons. My experiences are old - a friend’s dad transitioned in the 80’s - and my knowledge of the current state of play is limited.
  • HuiaHuia Shipmate
    Tubbs, I've just picked up Trans Like Me from the local library, my home away from home. It looks interesting.
  • Hi guys,

    I found this thread googling some other things on gender identity, and as real a middle-aged trans female in early transition I thought maybe I'd be a guinea pig.

    Certainly am more than willing to answer any questions that I can, share (hopefully) considered thoughts and personal experience.

    Some of the concerns I skim read here I share btw. How society views trans (and recognition of some real issues as a tiny minority) is evolving rapidly so there can be a tendency to move too fast e.g. like from a pathological/medical view to self-identification. It's tricky to get the balance I suspect.

    Please do remember that "trans" as an identity covers a multitude of sins and experiences (if you'll excuse my gentle pun) ... I am just one person. But I do have trans friends including a lovely Muslim girl who has kept her faith.

    I can't offer you any trans agendas or ideologies, that's not me. I do promise to be as genuine and accepting as I can.

    I do have some Christian background but having said that, please, let's not do the bible-verses thing?

    Nat
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Thank you for this generous, and brave, offer. While I have no specific questions right now, I look forward to learning from you.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Welcome, Nat! And wow, re your Muslim friend.
  • No problems, Excuse me if I don't reply to the prior 40 pages but I'm here to see if I can help understanding, not looking for a fight 🙂

    I'm not sure if I'm brave or crazy but here's your chance...!!

    If you don't understand trans folk I totally sympathise. It's very hard to understand unless you have to wrestle with it personally.

    My Muslim friend (in Malaysia BTW) is quite amazing, she has taught me a lot of humility by how she reconciles her faith.

    You'd be surprised how many trans folk worldwide believe in 'God' and deal with it.
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    Welcome and thank you @Natasha aka Nat. I don’t post on this thread, but read it to try and understand the issues, points of view, etc.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    As God is usually posited as the ultimate in inclusiveness, you would certainly hope She/He/They should be on side.

    I describe myself as Ordinary Decent Pagan - ie, mainly atheistic with the odd corner for superstition or mysticism. Said corners I would locate in the Unconscious, and I would buy into the idea of a Collective Unconscious. In so doing, I accept that the particular constellation of inheritances I call 'me' is indefinite. Its relation to my physical being is tangential. I am definitely female, but neither feminine nor maternal. I identify a lot with the stroppier goddesses - like Ishtar or Cybele or Kali.
  • Thanks Firenze, I guess my perception is that from a Christian view is that Trans people are a real headache theologically (sorry all, honestly we didn't mean to be!)

    We don't fit nicely into the creation narrative, plus Paul would certainly put us in an "icky" basket? To be fair, quite a lot seemed icky to Paul?

    And to fit us in fully might need a major reworking of a rather male Trinity, which would go down a Gnostic route i.e. heresy. Am I wrong?

    I won't lose sleep on it but this is kind of my understanding.
  • The only part of the Trinity which is definitely male is the Son. Hebrew uses female pronouns for the Spirit. God the Father is ... I don't know? An honorific? This kind of thing is well above my paygrade.

    But every good wish, Nat, for your time here.
  • Huia wrote: »
    Tubbs, I've just picked up Trans Like Me from the local library, my home away from home. It looks interesting.

    "Yes you are Trans Enough - my Transition from self-loathing to self-love" by Mia Violet is recent and has been highly recommended to me by a few people (I have yet to read but will).

    The biggest struggle for each one of us is (first) self-acceptance and (then) acceptance ... it's a bit chicken-and-egg in reality, the two go together or certainly did for me.

    Some of the current reported figures for suicide attempts for Trans teenagers are 30-40% though I think it tapers down over time with treatment and transitions ... of course, I personally and deeply relate to why that is.

    Then try to genuinely consider each as an individual young person, not a percentage.

    This has nothing to do with faith, this is simply our reality.

    Nat
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    The only part of the Trinity which is definitely male is the Son. Hebrew uses female pronouns for the Spirit. God the Father is ... I don't know? An honorific? This kind of thing is well above my paygrade.

    But every good wish, Nat, for your time here.

    Thanks Doc.

    And apologies in advance if I get things wrong or offend anyone ... certainly not my intention, more if people want to discuss with someone who is 'trans' and has the struggles associated with it.



  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    The only part of the Trinity which is definitely male is the Son. Hebrew uses female pronouns for the Spirit. God the Father is ... I don't know? An honorific? This kind of thing is well above my paygrade.

    But every good wish, Nat, for your time here.

    Thanks Doc.

    And apologies in advance if I get things wrong or offend anyone ... certainly not my intention, more if people want to discuss with someone who is 'trans' and has the struggles associated with it.

    I'm more concerned that people will batter you with questions and arguments about how you can't possibly exist or mean what you say, than you offending anyone here. Please don't feel you have to reply to everything, and know that you can stop if you're uncomfortable with any of the responses. The board Hosts (see the pinned post at the top of the board for who they are) can be privately messaged any time.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, Purgatory Host
    I suppose my biggest question has always been - how did you know you were trans ?

    I ask because most of the accounts I see cite things that are similar to my own experience in that, I’m not particularly stereotypical of my gender. (Gay cis female but not very femme.).
  • I suppose my biggest question has always been - how did you know you were trans ?

    I ask because most of the accounts I see cite things that are similar to my own experience in that, I’m not particularly stereotypical of my gender. (Gay cis female but not very femme.).

    For me this has been a later in life realisation (40s), but looking back I can see a whole series of signposts I missed or simply did not want to look at in an honest way at least from my 20s. I can certainly see from my upbringing and society at the time there was no way I could even have started to think of myself as trans as a teenager ... I constructed a kind of "default" male identity at the time which was actual highly functional at a surface level.

    Over the years I managed to hide behind male roles (successful career, everything seemed great on the surface) so a combination of being a workaholic, dealing with a complex sexual identity, and periodic depression all masked that I had bigger identity issues i.e. gender.

    I was cross-dressing from my 30s but have always been sexually inquisitive to try things so I compartmentalized it as a "kink" and kept on going.

    I reached a point a few years ago where I figured I had achieved what I wanted to in my career and decided to take an extended time-out to think "what do I want next in life?" but couldn't find direction and was depressed despite everything being seemingly great. Work didn't seem so important anymore ...

    A combination of a couple of things happened though. Firstly I had dropped a lot of my male facade / roles with stopping working, secondly I met an amazing woman who was not simply totally accepting of my dressing but encouraged it and ... with this acceptance a lot changed and realization started to dawn and grow slowly. It's doubly painful because I started to see all those missed signposts.

    Even so it is SO easy (and I would love) to re-compartmentalize my gender struggle as a fantasy, certainly I was absolutely wracked with self-doubt. I decided to work with a psychotherapist specializing in both gender and sexual identity, and I am still seeing her.
    I'm really not engaged with the NHS, everything I have read makes me very wary of how they pathologize gender issues ... my psychotherapist consults to the NHS too so can advise as needed.

    Being trans (female) is not simply about emotions, or how one wants to be accepted socially or body image ... it's all of them and maybe more.

    This is a hugely boiled down version, and I'm sure can raise a million questions but that's okay as it's authentic.






  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    Doc Tor wrote: »
    The only part of the Trinity which is definitely male is the Son. Hebrew uses female pronouns for the Spirit. God the Father is ... I don't know? An honorific? This kind of thing is well above my paygrade.

    But every good wish, Nat, for your time here.

    Thanks Doc.

    And apologies in advance if I get things wrong or offend anyone ... certainly not my intention, more if people want to discuss with someone who is 'trans' and has the struggles associated with it.

    I'm more concerned that people will batter you with questions and arguments about how you can't possibly exist or mean what you say, than you offending anyone here. Please don't feel you have to reply to everything, and know that you can stop if you're uncomfortable with any of the responses. The board Hosts (see the pinned post at the top of the board for who they are) can be privately messaged any time.

    Thanks, that's appreciated.

    Truly I will try to answer questions as best I can, identifying as trans IS incredibly complex so all I can do is try to be patient and tolerant. Life is too short for arguments though, it's all about trying to gain understanding.

    For example, I also share some of the concerns on gender self-identification when younger YET I wish it had been available to me as a teenager ... I'm capable of seeing both sides of the coin (and indeed shades of gender and sexual identity spectrums)
  • One question that may well be impossible to answer, and I've never been brave enough to ask of my trans friends: did society's view of traditional gender roles play any part in your identification as trans?
  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    One question that may well be impossible to answer, and I've never been brave enough to ask of my trans friends: did society's view of traditional gender roles play any part in your identification as trans?

    Doc, maybe let me think a bit on that as it's SO complex ... and a great question.

    My gut feeling is that there are two* sides to this, and I can only talk as an adult.

    1) Realizing that you do not identify as your binary sex (male/female), each of which which have associated traditional gender role stereotypes, which of course are not static over time and are increasingly blurred.

    2) When working out what you DO identify as ... UNLESS a totally binary trans male/female and probably even then ... it needs a process of personal deconstruction, re-evaluation, and reconstruction of your gender identity.
    Here I feel traditional gender roles don't come into how you identify within the trans spectrum too much because you naturally have to re-look at your gender identity at a lower level of granularity that societal norm 'traditional gender roles' anyway.

    * Both 1 and 2 have completely variable amounts of time as each person is different.
    Many people may in childhood instinctively NOT identify as male but naturally as a female in which case it's a much easier transition especially if you have supportive parents.

    Finally how I identify as a trans may not always be how I present for very practical reasons. So I may feel very very (or totally) female but consciously compromise and present some of the time as a guy or a "girlie guy" because it's more practical to be accepted this way in a working environment.

    I hope this kind of makes some kind of sense, as I say it's really complex.



  • I ask because it's one the suggested reasons for the increase in those identifying as trans, and that if society was more accepting of more masculine women, and more feminine men, then there'd be fewer trans people.

    Personally, I don't see it. I have many traits and roles (I was main caregiver to my now grown-up children, and was effectively 'mother') that could be considered feminine, but I have never felt anything other than who I am (male, cis, het). I've always assumed that 'gender roles' are independent of gender, but do realise that yes, sometimes it's simply easier to compromise because you haven't the energy to explain.

    Thank you for your time!
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Yes, the right wing and Christian warnings imply that the trans adolescent or child is actually perfectly healthy, but has been warped by trans activists, mad parents, dangerous teachers, and so on. Remove these evil influences and order will be restored.

    Ignoring what the trans people themselves say, especially ones who have transitioned and gone from angst and worse to peace and calm.

    I just want to add that personally I find only hormones have an amazing affect on me in terms of calmness and reducing depression (of course other effects). Of course it could be a placebo effect but I have seen formal NHS documentation which corresponds to my own experience.

    Trans includes 'cross-dressers' who identify as female but do not transition. My Muslim friend is exactly like this by choice for religious reasons ... an amazing lady, beautiful inside and out.

    Reading some of the history of this thread is kind of interesting but feels super-theoretical?

    Forgetting activists, perhaps a lot of stuff being discussed isn't really what the great majority of trans folk get too worked up about ... big picture we'd probably just like full acceptance of our condition and full acceptance of ourselves as people, quirks and all.

    Nat


  • Doc Tor wrote: »
    I ask because it's one the suggested reasons for the increase in those identifying as trans, and that if society was more accepting of more masculine women, and more feminine men, then there'd be fewer trans people.

    Personally, I don't see it. I have many traits and roles (I was main caregiver to my now grown-up children, and was effectively 'mother') that could be considered feminine, but I have never felt anything other than who I am (male, cis, het). I've always assumed that 'gender roles' are independent of gender, but do realise that yes, sometimes it's simply easier to compromise because you haven't the energy to explain.

    Thank you for your time!

    Doc, when you phrase it that way, it's pretty much a non-issue I'd say in the big picture of looking at ones gender.


  • Reading some of the history of this thread is kind of interesting but feels super-theoretical?
    OK, so this thread has a 40 page history as well as being connected to 3 Styx threads, at least one Hell thread and the creation of a new board. If it appears theoretical now it is possibly for that and because it drove out the only other acknowledged trans person on the boards.
    Forgetting activists, perhaps a lot of stuff being discussed isn't really what the great majority of trans folk get too worked up about ... big picture we'd probably just like full acceptance of our condition and full acceptance of ourselves as people, quirks and all.

    Nat
    I'm curious as to what you think is not worth getting worked up about.

  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Reading some of the history of this thread is kind of interesting but feels super-theoretical?
    OK, so this thread has a 40 page history as well as being connected to 3 Styx threads, at least one Hell thread and the creation of a new board. If it appears theoretical now it is possibly for that and because it drove out the only other acknowledged trans person on the boards.
    Forgetting activists, perhaps a lot of stuff being discussed isn't really what the great majority of trans folk get too worked up about ... big picture we'd probably just like full acceptance of our condition and full acceptance of ourselves as people, quirks and all.

    Nat
    I'm curious as to what you think is not worth getting worked up about.

    I will pass on this one, the history of this thread is evident and I'm not here to stir up old discussion.

    In just read to me like people here don't really know or understand trans people first hand and close? Especially adult trans?

    I think that's quite okay given that we are maybe 0.5% of the population and incredibly complex and private people in
    general.

    I struggle to understand myself on a bad
    day so I fully accept that we are hard to understand. Most trans people would admit this. Yet there are some amazing people out there as people who are trans start to open up...
  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited August 2019
    @Natasha aka Nat Your post exudes grace. Welcome, and hoping you sail far and wide on the Ship, with added extra epiphanies all round.
  • Eutychus wrote: »
    @Natasha aka Nat Your post exudes grace. Welcome, and hoping you sail far and wide on the Ship, with added extra epiphanies all round.

    Thanks Eutychus!

    Actually my post exudes typos, grrr. It should be "I just read".

    Grace is the bit where God's love covers everyone who turns to him(/her/it) right, even people like me?

    I didn't come here to debate theology or compare denominational views however I think it's fair to say there is a spectrum of Christian beliefs?

    I acknowledge it can be hard for some to see gender as being equally complex for some of us. We really didn't choose to be this way trust me (tears in eyes typing this... )

    But I accept that people can't understand trans without engaging with us, I can
    only do my part hopefully with humility
    and wisdom and patience.

  • EutychusEutychus Shipmate
    edited August 2019
    Grace is the bit where God's love covers everyone who turns to him(/her/it) right, even people like me?

    Indeed - except that for God, there is nobody who needs to say "even people like me?".

    Or to put it another way, it's that absolutely every last one of us needs to say "even people like me?" Really.

    :sunglasses:

    However, my response to your post was a response to the grace I saw in your answer: a willingness to engage gratuitously (in the sense of 'without expecting anything in return'), be patient (and wise) with people coming from very different life experiences and mental frameworks to yours, and do so at, potentially, some emotional cost to yourself.

    The greater the diversity of people we can get round the virtual table here with an approach like that, the richer our journey will be.
  • I will pass on this one, the history of this thread is evident and I'm not here to stir up old discussion.
    Absolutely understand and you owe us nothing.
    In just read to me like people here don't really know or understand trans people first hand and close? Especially adult trans?
    That is an understatement :wink: , hence my questions.
    Thank you for whatever you are willing to offer and absolutely no pressure beyond that.

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