Transgender

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  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Perhaps, but that does not justify it. You don't watch the funeral, you don't order a few more boxes of Kleenex, but you don't rejoice.

    BTW, I looked up Rachel McKinnon. No idea how dispassionate or accurate were the authors of the sites I found, but she does not sound vey attractive at all.
  • I wasn't surprised by McKinnon. It was entirely consistent with who they've shown themselves to be.
  • And Karl, how would you define 'hate'? Is raising concerns about the criteria used to determine who should compete in women's sports hateful?
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Is it always wrong to rejoice when someone dies? I have friends from Zimbabwe who were glad when Mugabe went. What about the deaths of Hitler or Stalin?
  • quantpole wrote: »
    And Karl, how would you define 'hate'? Is raising concerns about the criteria used to determine who should compete in women's sports hateful?

    But McKinnon was referring to Magadalen Berns (and did not actually say she rejoiced in her death, but rather that she could see ethical justification for doing so) who was known for a bit more than questioning pro sports eligibility.
  • She has said "terfs" deserve to die in a grease fire. She has called Martina Navratilova a terf. And she posted a gif of actual grave dancing. That is not philosophising on the ethical justification for celebrating someone's death.

    Are you comparing a lesbian woman who posted videos to youtube complaining about certain trans ideologies to Hitler and Stalin, Robert? If you are then I really don't want to talk to you. If you're not then it is just a ridiculous strawman.
  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    Again I find the context not supplied very interesting.

    If one was actually interested in matters of niceness/internet civility/ behaviour of activists, then Berns' very shocking track record would also be relevant.

    So I conclude that these issues are not really what's important here. It just looks like using MacKinnon and anything else that comes to hand as a stick to beat trans people with.







  • Is it always wrong to rejoice when someone dies? I have friends from Zimbabwe who were glad when Mugabe went. What about the deaths of Hitler or Stalin?

    Relief, but not gladness.
  • Oh really Louise. Surely it would be obvious that there is some background to it. People aren't normally happy about someone else dying. And if you want to look at the context of the discussion on here it was because LilBuddha was already talking about how abused transpeople were. My comment was that it is not just one way. So the context of people being horrible to trans people was already there.

    But I'm tremendously happy that you have now reached your judgement. I have also reached my conclusion about how you are trying to twist my words to fit your own narrative.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    Just doing a Google search on "McKinnon" "Grease Fire" reveals such a plethora of actual hatred of transwomen - misgendering, deadnaming and personal insults, that the context is absolutely relevant here.

    Let it also be remembered that nothing that trans activists do or say actually tries to tell other women that they are not women at all, that they should have their rights denied, and so on and so forth.

    This is the problem when these things are framed entirely in terms of conflicts of ideas and opinions. For trans people, it's a bit more than that. It's effectively a denial that they exist or that their own self-image is valid.

  • quantpolequantpole Shipmate
    edited September 2019
    As there is against "terfs". If you're looking on twitter, it is a cess pool. Normally the trolls on there don't get given write ups in the national media though.

    Many lesbians feel they are being told their self-image isn't valid. It absolutely is personal to them. Or do you think they are just objecting because really they are just awful transphobes?
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    The question, "Is it always wrong to rejoice when someone dies?" was a genuine one. Is it politeness not to be glad at a death, or something deeper? (And this isn't related to this particular woman; I have no idea who she is, and no desire to find out.)
  • quantpole wrote: »
    As there is against "terfs". If you're looking on twitter, it is a cess pool. Normally the trolls on there don't get given write ups in the national media though.

    Many lesbians feel they are being told their self-image isn't valid.

    Really? By whom? How?
    It absolutely is personal to them. Or do you think they are just objecting because really they are just awful transphobes?

  • LouiseLouise Epiphanies Host
    In these circumstances, the lack of being forthcoming on 'the background' is to use a poker term a 'tell'. It's a 'tell' that the argument is not at all one about civility.





  • KarlLB wrote: »
    quantpole wrote: »
    As there is against "terfs". If you're looking on twitter, it is a cess pool. Normally the trolls on there don't get given write ups in the national media though.

    Many lesbians feel they are being told their self-image isn't valid.

    Really? By whom? How?
    It absolutely is personal to them. Or do you think they are just objecting because really they are just awful transphobes?

    Look up Get the L Out.
  • Louise wrote: »
    In these circumstances, the lack of being forthcoming on 'the background' is to use a poker term a 'tell'. It's a 'tell' that the argument is not at all one about civility.

    Ok, seeing as you continually refuse to actually discuss anything I say, I am going to ignore you.
  • quantpole wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    quantpole wrote: »
    As there is against "terfs". If you're looking on twitter, it is a cess pool. Normally the trolls on there don't get given write ups in the national media though.

    Many lesbians feel they are being told their self-image isn't valid.

    Really? By whom? How?
    It absolutely is personal to them. Or do you think they are just objecting because really they are just awful transphobes?

    Look up Get the L Out.

    I did. Did someone upthread mention a cess-pool/

    Do you not see a difference between a Lesbian sub-group who decides that their identity is threatened by their disapproval of some other people who consider themselves lesbians, and actually being told that your identity as a transwoman doesn't and can't exist?

    Absolutely no-one - no-one - is telling anyone they aren't a proper lesbian if they were born female. On the other hand, TERFs are telling transwomen that they are not real women.

    The former strike me as not unlike the sort of people who claimed their marriages were under threat from other people - gay couples - being allowed also to marry.

    There is no equivalence here; it's like Trump and his "very bad people on both sides" nonsense.

    You asked "do you think they are just objecting because really they are just awful transphobes?" - having read the first two hits I got from searching "Get the L Out" my first impression is yes, yes they are.
  • I heard that McKinnon has a new article out about trans women and sport, but I can't find it online. Has anyone seen it?
  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    @quantpole, ascribing unpleasant motives to other people like "you are trying to twist my words to fit your own narrative" is off limits as a personal attack. Either show how Louise's words are wrong or don't.

    Gwai, Epiphanies host
  • quantpole wrote: »
    Oh really Louise. Surely it would be obvious that there is some background to it. People aren't normally happy about someone else dying. And if you want to look at the context of the discussion on here it was because LilBuddha was already talking about how abused transpeople were. My comment was that it is not just one way. So the context of people being horrible to trans people was already there..
    And you ignore that a few people saying mean things is not the same thing as a whole group being denied existence. A few people in one group hearing nasty words is not the same thing as the other having people beaten to death as well as being denied rights.

    And whether a cause has a few nasty people in it is not inherently relevant to whether the cause is right or wrong.
    There were loads of straight Nazis, is being straight therefore wrong? There were gay male Nazis, are gay males horrible people?

    The Haitians massacred white people after the revolution was over, include children. Does that mean the slavery the Haitians had rebelled against was OK? Of not so bad because there was violence on both sides?
    quantpole wrote: »
    As there is against "terfs". If you're looking on twitter, it is a cess pool. Normally the trolls on there don't get given write ups in the national media though.

    Many lesbians feel they are being told their self-image isn't valid. It absolutely is personal to them. Or do you think they are just objecting because really they are just awful transphobes?
    Yes. Well, some of them will also be myopic extremists. Every large movement has subgroups like that. Doesn't make them right or representative of the whole.
    Pick any letter in the LGBTQ+ alphabet and you will find members of one letter who hate on members of another. Cis Gay men are the largest offenders in this regard. Many people in the LBGTQ+ are racist.
    Does that make racism a valid view?

  • I was arguing with someone about trans, and they kept saying that trans people are conflating sex and gender, thus, a trans woman is not saying I feel feminine but female. My first reply was, so what, but on reflection, there is a more interesting reply.

    When I got interested in gender studies in the 80s, there was some interest in feminine men and masculine women, and also the hostility they might evoke. This seemed to suggest that if a man showed feminine traits, this cast doubt on his maleness or manhood. Maybe gays and lesbians were treated in a rather similar way. I'm not sure about masculine women, I am guessing that this has been more acceptable.

    But it seems to show that sex and gender bleed into each other, thus, feminine appearance evoked for some people, femaleness, or non-maleness. Another thing that occurred to me is that the whole field of sex/gender identity is messy and resists neat classification, and we can actually celebrate this, but maybe some fastidious people object. This probably duplicates earlier posts, ah well, (haunting Scandi noir music), we come back to the beginning.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host, Epiphanies Host
    edited October 2019
    I feel something like that as well, quetz. I see definitional messiness as a potential source of confusion, both in our discussions and perceived personal identities.

    But even after acknowledging this, I think we all have to be very careful to avoid assuming that anyone's personal self-ID is caused by such confusion. Current NHS guidelines are pretty clear, both that such assumptions are wrong and also that it is worth providing counselling space for confirmation that the individual's self-ID is settled. That seems to me to be the right balance to strike.

    You're right that we've visited this point before, but personally I found your post helpful.
  • I popped back.

    Perhaps many of us feel feminine AND female and understand the difference?

    Perhaps for those who are gender fluid or non-polar, both can vary day-to-day or situational?

    I know it sounds messy... it is.

    "So what" actually is a lot more helpful imho (plus "celebrate"! )
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited November 2019
    I popped back.

    Perhaps many of us feel feminine AND female and understand the difference?

    Perhaps for those who are gender fluid or non-polar, both can vary day-to-day or situational?

    I know it sounds messy... it is.

    "So what" actually is a lot more helpful imho (plus "celebrate"! )

    I wish you'd explain the difference between feeling feminine and feeling female, in as simple and detailed (examples please?) as you care to, for this puzzles me no end, and I am fast coming to the conclusion that I myself lack some internal innate awareness that other people just have. I don't know if it's what you call feeling female or feeling feminine, though. For me personally being a woman has been almost wholly body based, and I have largely told social expectations to go to hell when they require me to do something irksome. That leaves.,. What? Because if I had a Star Trek transporter accudent tomorrow and found myself in a male body, I can't imagine feeling greatly discombobulated, except by the practical concerns (new boobless shirts, different center of gravity, dealing with family reactions, learning not to scare women by walking behind them on dark streets,..)

    Is there a way you can tell me what I'm missing, that other people have?
  • Maybe you all already know, but the 20 November is a day to highlight and remember the tragic deaths of trans people. Many of the stories are heartbreaking.

    Be careful if you want to read more (I'm not sure the best way to do this, but "trigger warning")

    https://tdor.translivesmatter.info/reports

    It seems to me that the bottom line in the way we collectively view trans people and trans issues is to recognise the toll.

    I don't know what the answer is. I can hear the complaints from others, I can see how it might make competitive sport difficult, I can understand that it has a deep impact on the self-identity of other people.

    But set against that, I think we have to return to the reality that here is a group of people who experience an unusual level of violence and, sadly, murder.

    That's not to excuse behaviours by trans activists who make other people feel unsafe and undermined. But it is an explanation, if an imperfect one.
  • 381 deaths in 2019 in the database, 41 suicides.

    It's just so sad. Apart from anything else, these people have an urge they cannot ignore which means they feel compelled to change significant things about themselves - and as a result experience extreme reactions from everyone else, including too often murder.
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    I'm glad you're back, @Natasha aka Nat as this is a complicated topic I know I don't understand. All your posts have been educational, even if I'm still confused!
  • I cannot speak for the trans community, but I think confusion is OK. It is in conclusion and how one explores confusion that things get problematic, IMO.
  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    I cannot speak for the trans community, but I think confusion is OK. It is in conclusion and how one explores confusion that things get problematic, IMO.

    There is a big (adult) Trans community on Twitter which I find helpful for support and understanding. The phrases "working it out" and "confused" come up a lot. Plus "depressed" of course.

    I think accepting that some confusion may always be there as a part of finding oneself as trans.

    This is very non-PC but honestly I wonder if mentioning the "third gender" identity in some countries (like Thailand) is helpful on this thread. I personally find thinking this way helps me because then I see myself/my identity as "trans" first and "a trans female" second.

    It allows me to feel its okay to be confused and NOT feel I have to aspire to fit so cleanly into societally defined male/female stereotypes. I embrace my differences rather than feeling I'm not "okay" as a female. Different mindset.

    It's just a thought. Other Eastern countries with longer acceptance of trans don't necessarily view gender quite the way we are heading?

    And that makes me wonder how much evolution of societal views on gender may historically be influenced by religion. In Thailand (Buddhist) a third gender seems pretty well accepted whereas in Malaysia (Muslim) its far less accepted. I have trans/ladyboy friends in both and also Philippines which is very Catholic of course. India and Hinduism??

    Sorry if I have opened a new can of worms, this whole line thought just occurred to me based on a mindset I use to deal with confusion personally ... it may have been raised before, I'm not sure.

  • Yes, and that goes back a long way with eunuchs and so on.

    I suppose in a way having a "third gender" makes things easier for everyone do deal with, in the sense that the wider community only has to tolerate their existence and it becomes less of a personal existence thing for people who are not trans. They can just totally ignore it.

    For some reason that reminds me of Terry Pratchett.

    Unfortunately the evidence of real life doesn't suggest a recognised third gender reduces the violence though.

    I'm also not clear how many people see themselves as "trans" over and above any other name or gender presentation. I suspect it depends on the person.
  • RussRuss Suspended
    Being confused is part of the human condition. It's OK to be confused.

    But confusion is not something to be held up as a good thing. We should aspire to emerge from confusion. Into clarity of understanding.

    That's not a contradiction. It's one of those things where valuing something good needs to be distinguished from denigrating those who do not have that good. Treading a line...
  • Lamb Chopped...

    I read your post in great detail. Then I paused and read it again.

    And then I went for a walk and thought about you...

    I'd love to discuss feminity and feelings with you, but it would have to be a 1-2-1, and yes I'd welcome that. And IF we met I already feel I want to give you a big hug, if you'd accept it.

    That hug (from my side, regardless of how I look) would be a sisterly hug - I can't put it any better way here.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    In terms of feeling female ie body image, I need to say that I experience a degree of gender fluity.

    Most of the time I feel 'more female' in terms of (ideal) body and outward appearance.

    Some days I feel far more okay to present as male. I don't know if this will change but I have become comfortable with it.

    Some days I dont want to think about it at all, but I think we all have those days!!

    But regardless of fluctuations on how I feel about my body and appearance, my feeling of being feminine is constant
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    On your last question I don't think you're missing anything surely? You sound charming and genuine and use words like "
    discombobulated". We all tick in slightly different ways... that's just being human.

    I don't know if this helps you at all. It's the best I can do, I think. I really hope it does.

    Nat
  • There is, or can be, a difference between feeling female and feeling feminine. I have always felt very female, but I have never felt very feminine. In fact, I think I feel rather masculine. I have few traditional feminine traits... I don't do makeup, wear dresses or frilly clothing, enjoy shoe shopping, etc. But I know and am very comfortable with, being all female.
  • Lamb Chopped...

    I read your post in great detail. Then I paused and read it again.

    And then I went for a walk and thought about you...

    I'd love to discuss feminity and feelings with you, but it would have to be a 1-2-1, and yes I'd welcome that. And IF we met I already feel I want to give you a big hug, if you'd accept it.

    That hug (from my side, regardless of how I look) would be a sisterly hug - I can't put it any better way here.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    In terms of feeling female ie body image, I need to say that I experience a degree of gender fluity.

    Most of the time I feel 'more female' in terms of (ideal) body and outward appearance.

    Some days I feel far more okay to present as male. I don't know if this will change but I have become comfortable with it.

    Some days I dont want to think about it at all, but I think we all have those days!!

    But regardless of fluctuations on how I feel about my body and appearance, my feeling of being feminine is constant
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    On your last question I don't think you're missing anything surely? You sound charming and genuine and use words like "
    discombobulated". We all tick in slightly different ways... that's just being human.

    I don't know if this helps you at all. It's the best I can do, I think. I really hope it does.

    Nat

    Sure, I'd love to meet, though I rather doubt you're on my continent (Midwest US)? If not, in the meantime we could maybe PM?

    I didn't mean I was missing anything in the sense of "something's wrong with me" but rather just in the purely denotative sense, as in "I haven't got a (appendix, left toenail, sense of smell, etc.) that would allow me to grasp a lot of the experience I'm hearing about here.
  • Third gender has been discussed a bit on this thread, and there are many variations around the world, not all of which correspond with trans. But when people express shock at gender non-conformity, one can point to Thailand or India or Samoa and many others for examples. Maybe gender in the West has been repressed and hidebound, and is now breaking free.
  • AuspiciusofTrierAuspiciusofTrier Shipmate Posts: 15
    Maybe gender in the West has been repressed and hidebound, and is now breaking free.
    ... Agree with this quite a lot.

    I was based out in Asia for six years including a year in Bangkok (obviously much younger and certainly not viewing myself at trans at the time) plus I holiday in the region and know have some close trans friends from my travels - Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines.

    I know a couple of trans girls in Philippines who are strong Catholics, go to church every week, take communion etc and are fully accepted by the priest. I really love this level of acceptance, I believe he's essentially turning a blind eye to dictates from Rome? Not sure tbh.



  • I'm not sure about the correspondence of trans and some gender variants. Wiki says that 'kathoey' in Thailand does not refer to trans women, for which 'phuying' is used. However, elsewhere kathoey seems to be used. It also says that ladyboy is pejorative.
  • There's a hefty Samoan rugby player (Tuilagi), who has a fa'fafine brother, which seems widely accepted in Samoa. I don't really understand fa'fafine either, I don't think you can at a distance. The tabloids call him his 'cross-dressing brother'.
  • I didn't mean I was missing anything in the sense of "something's wrong with me" but rather just in the purely denotative sense, as in "I haven't got a (appendix, left toenail, sense of smell, etc.) that would allow me to grasp a lot of the experience I'm hearing about here.

    For what it's worth, I think many people (whether cisgender, agender, or something else) don't really have an intuitive feel for gender identity. Gender identity for most people seems to a bit like modern plumbing, in that you don't really notice it unless something weird has happened somewhere.

    I was trying to think of a good first-person piece on the Internet describing someone's experience of atypical gender identity, and I remembered this rather good autobiographical essay by a trans woman, now apparently a professor of developmental psychology, written in her grad student days. I found it maybe 15 years ago, and it doesn't look like she's updated it since 2008, but (somewhat to my surprise, the Internet being what it is) it's still there. It's obviously a particular individual's experience at a particular place and time, but she touches on a number of themes that you see pretty consistently in autobiographical work on this topic.

    Here's the link:

    http://www.genderpsychology.org/gid_case_study/index.html

  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, Purgatory Host
    You see when I start to read that, it mainly tells me that some people think there’s only one way to be be a male or female.
  • You see when I start to read that, it mainly tells me that some people think there’s only one way to be be a male or female.

    And that usually means from the outside, not the inside. So many transphobic articles have the premise that I get to describe you, and my description is the truth, and your experience is invalid. But I suspect that this approach goes beyond sex/gender to all kinds of identity. It's a kind of latent behaviourism, you are what I see.
  • You see when I start to read that, it mainly tells me that some people think there’s only one way to be be a male or female.

    There are things I don’t love about this piece, and one of them is how quickly the author slides into somewhat stereotypical language about femininity in describing her experience. I suspect there are two things going on here - first, simply, that the language she uses does accurately describe a part of her experience, but also, second, that more fundamental aspects of the experience of cross-sex gender identity are not easy to articulate. So there is a natural tendency to slip into stereotypical-sounding language because language that will accurately convey the more fundamental aspects of cross-sex gender identity to someone who has never experienced it can be difficult to find.

    One interesting thing that she mentions (much later on) is that she tried to live as a "feminine man" instead of transitioning for a while after reading and obviously taking to heart some trans-hostile writings by feminist theorists. So it's not as though she didn't test out the "live like a non-stereotypical male and gender identity will no linger be an issue" theory.


  • Marsupial wrote: »
    I didn't mean I was missing anything in the sense of "something's wrong with me" but rather just in the purely denotative sense, as in "I haven't got a (appendix, left toenail, sense of smell, etc.) that would allow me to grasp a lot of the experience I'm hearing about here.

    For what it's worth, I think many people (whether cisgender, agender, or something else) don't really have an intuitive feel for gender identity. Gender identity for most people seems to a bit like modern plumbing, in that you don't really notice it unless something weird has happened somewhere.

    I was trying to think of a good first-person piece on the Internet describing someone's experience of atypical gender identity, and I remembered this rather good autobiographical essay by a trans woman, now apparently a professor of developmental psychology, written in her grad student days. I found it maybe 15 years ago, and it doesn't look like she's updated it since 2008, but (somewhat to my surprise, the Internet being what it is) it's still there. It's obviously a particular individual's experience at a particular place and time, but she touches on a number of themes that you see pretty consistently in autobiographical work on this topic.

    Here's the link:

    http://www.genderpsychology.org/gid_case_study/index.html

    You see, I read this, and ... well, I'll be honest (and get yelled at, but here goes). My first reaction was to want to comfort and console this person, and say, "You do whatever makes you feel good." My second reaction was, "I wish you had just told them (the ones imposing ridiculous gender stereotypes) to fuck off to hell." And I can't help wondering what would have happened if this person had indeed said, "Get fucked," repeatedly and with great emphasis, to those who were bitching about their propensity for pink, or whatever. Would they have been happy living as a "feminine boy" as they put it, or whatever? It seems possible, at least in this case as presented. The writer only talks about wanting to transition after that option didn't work out due to bullying.

    The reason I wonder is because "Fuck off" is essentially what I myself said to those who told me to wear make-up; to defer to men; to bake cookies; to tone down my ferocious analytical and logical skills, and in fact, my whole intelligence ("you have a mind like a man" and etc.); to wear more stylish clothes; to smile, and smile, and smile (and be a villain, no doubt, but I digress). I'm no hero, but I'm damn stubborn. And as a result, the various people who have attempted to enforce stereotypical feminine behavior on me have basically given up (well, mostly--I still have occasional chew toys to play with). Perhaps not coincidentally, I never felt a need to transition.

    To put it another way, the driving force behind that whole series of essays seems to be external--sort of "I find myself more comfortable with stereotypical feminine norms, and therefore I must be a woman." The writer doesn't seem to express a sense of self that is at odds with the body so much as one that is at odds with the cultural norms. And that's why, though I've read the essays, I feel I still don't comprehend. Essentially, I'm looking for an abiding sense of "this is the wrong body" that is NOT simply the result of social conditioning, and that a strong course of "Fuck off!s" would not have helped. These essays, though interesting, are not that.

  • I think your post may have been a cross-post with my reply to Doublethink - anyway, as I said there, I wasn't totally happy with some of the language the author used, though obviously I didn't foresee how much of a problem it would create for some people.

    I think you've misread her on why she gave up on trying to live as a "feminine male" - as I read the piece, it's not that she was getting bullied as a feminine male, or expected to get bullied less by transitioning (as @Blahblah reminds us upthread, TDOR is coming up tomorrow...), but rather that the experience brought home to her that she just didn't identify as male. That's not where she would have landed if all she wanted is to live a less stereotypically male existence.

    On the "wrong body" issue, as I understand things, transgenderism often has a somatic aspect to it but this is only one aspect. It's also a discussion that gets intensely personal very fast and, in my experience, the aspect of trans experience that trans people are least likely to want to share for public consumption. That said, I think the author of the piece I linked to is probably alluding to this, albeit obliquely, when she talks about how she gave up swimming after puberty because she couldn't bring herself to take her shirt off in public.

    Reading my responses to your post and Doublethink's together, I realize this is all very unsatisfactory from the point of view of providing something concrete to work with. This is really not an easy issue to grapple with.
  • Marsupial wrote: »
    I think your post may have been a cross-post with my reply to Doublethink - anyway, as I said there, I wasn't totally happy with some of the language the author used, though obviously I didn't foresee how much of a problem it would create for some people.

    I think you've misread her on why she gave up on trying to live as a "feminine male" - as I read the piece, it's not that she was getting bullied as a feminine male, or expected to get bullied less by transitioning (as @Blahblah reminds us upthread, TDOR is coming up tomorrow...), but rather that the experience brought home to her that she just didn't identify as male. That's not where she would have landed if all she wanted is to live a less stereotypically male existence.
    That is my take as well. IMO, she would have been uncomfortable no matter what the acceptable external gender expression for males happened to be.

  • Yes. I identify with a lot of her discomfort in stereotypically male identities - I still to this day have no use for sports of virtually any kind - but I never, ever, felt I wasn't really properly male, despite a lot of my peers telling me I wasn't. Clearly there is some significant difference between the inner experience of a merely non-stereotypically male man and a trans woman.
  • Vogue has a trans woman on the December cover, but more interesting is that she is a muxe, the traditional Mexican trans or third gender. Opinion seems to vary on how much acceptance there is, although lingering Catholic attitudes are negative. This is an unexplored area for me, how much Christian hostility has affected 3rd genders in various countries, although in England Anglicanism has been supportive of trans people..
  • Vogue has a trans woman on the December cover, but more interesting is that she is a muxe, the traditional Mexican trans or third gender. Opinion seems to vary on how much acceptance there is, although lingering Catholic attitudes are negative. This is an unexplored area for me, how much Christian hostility has affected 3rd genders in various countries, although in England Anglicanism has been supportive of trans people..

    I know some people who would give your final clause a very hollow laugh.

  • Vogue has a trans woman on the December cover, but more interesting is that she is a muxe, the traditional Mexican trans or third gender. Opinion seems to vary on how much acceptance there is, although lingering Catholic attitudes are negative.
    Mexico has not been traditionally friendly to its indigenous population. And muxe is Oaxacan, which is one of many indigenous groups in Mexico. So, not really traditional Mexican. IME, at least.
    although in England Anglicanism has been supportive of trans people..
    Is this at least tinged with a little sarcasm? That "support" doesn't seet thoroughly embedded in the CofE. And what exists is very recent.

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