What is the role of a PCC member?
Puzzler
Shipmate
“The PCC’s purpose is to co- operate with the minister on matters of general concern and importance to the parish, and to promote the whole mission of the church in the parish.”
Mark Tanner. The PCC member’s Essential Guide.
Right? So should every PCC member support the incumbent in every respect even when they think (know) that s/he has got something wrong?
Mark Tanner. The PCC member’s Essential Guide.
Right? So should every PCC member support the incumbent in every respect even when they think (know) that s/he has got something wrong?
Comments
See Section 3.1 of this document: https://tinyurl.com/y7hod3jo.
But pointing out areas where we are not upholding our responsibilities ( fortunately not in connection with Safeguarding) leads to an accusation of criticism and being unsupportive.
I am not sure how much longer I can tolerate this.
Ideally the interaction of a fresh view from outside with the detailed local knowledge of long-termers can be very fruitful, but there obviously can be problems - especially if objectives differ, but also if there is disagreement about means.
So maybe a successful-elsewhere good idea really won’t work in your parish, or maybe a long-treasured tradition, valued by those who enjoy it has no chance of helping the church grow. Maybe there a space for compromise.
E.g. in my m-in-law’s church, a new vicar had no time for a fairly traditional evening service. It turned out, though that he was very happy for it to be lay-led, and do it continued right through his incumbency, and he attended from time to time.
When he says, "If you can’t support the changes I have made then you should consider your position”, you can reply, "I have. In this instance I'm the loyal opposition."
Whether he will have ears to hear . . . .
Yes, as ultimately we're all responsible to God, not the vicar. And if s/he stoops to emotional blackmail, then s/he is not fit to be a priest.
Puzzler, if all else fails, resign, for the sake of your own well-being. That wouldn't preclude you from continuing to be a loyal member of the congregation.
IJ
If I were to resign now I feel it would be seen as a sign that I am not in favour of the changes and am not supportive of the new incumbent.
I know we need to change, and I am happy with some of the changes, eg new All- Age worship, but I do not feel change has been handled sensitively, nor has due regard been taken of the views of a number of people, especially those of us who have appreciated a dignified liturgical and musical style of service, which has more or less gone.
I still feel that there is a need on the PCC for people who are not automatic Yes men. People who can pick up points that need addressing, keep chivvying away at areas of concern.
Nope. They are charity trustees and have exactly the same responsibilities. How that is worked out may be slightly different but the CofE is most certainly not above the law as it applies to Baptist churches.
There are wider legal implications beyond the church, linked to its charitable status
Of course. But someone the "feel" of things isn't quite the same IME.
There should be some way for you to have an informal meeting with someone at diocesan level to express your concerns in a general way and give them a thumbnail sketch of what is going on and being said. If you do this with a genuine and loudly expressed desire to help someone who is clearly floundering then it should yield some improvement.
Hence the words "as a start". But here at least our local diocesan ordinance is framed to take much of those into account.
I had the misfortune recently to have to wade through the canons and ordinances pertaining to PCC (vestry) in the diocese in which I'm exercising an interim priest in charge role at the moment. My goodness it's a hotchpotch of random entries across a potpourri or legislation. Mind-bogglingly vague and vacuous.
Even on the odd occasions on which he consented to 'consult' (which meant having a private confabulation with our late churchwarden), our former (and now, thankfully, retired) p-in-c simply went on to do just what he liked.
Fortunately, there were not that many occasions when this happened, as he was too busy being uxorious with his Lovely Wife to bother about the church and parish.
IJ
Three? In my days of exposure to That Form of Evangelical™ it was only two. A boy had to be born first, preferably with a New International Version or perhaps New American Standard version of the bible in his hand. A girl came next, roughly two years later, with a copy of The Peaceful Wife: Living in Submission to Christ as Lord in her pinafore pocket.
And yes, sadly that book exists.
4.7 for Zappa's.
I'll search out those books
Yay! I win. Just goes to show that Amazon reviews are, generally speaking, a mass exercise in confirmation bias. I mean 4+ stars? Really?
My point was, IIRC, that priest/minister & PCC members should concentrate on the important issues relating to the church/parish, leaving personal circumstances aside.
Our Father Fuckwit was, alas, unable to do this, though (in all fairness) he is a Good And Decent Chap.
In some ways.
But not all (IMHO).
IJ
Hi Puzzler. Having read this thread, and the others relating to your new incumbent, I just want to express sympathy, reinforce the items of excellent advice you’ve already received, and perhaps add a couple.
When vicars demand what amounts to personal loyalty it’s bad enough. But in a way P.C.C. members who keep quiet out of so-called ‘loyalty’ to the vicar are even more disheartening, and, as has been pointed out, they are not doing the job they were elected to do. It is perhaps your fellow PCC members you need to work on, with the aid of the ‘Essential Guide’, and perhaps the penny will then drop with your incumbent that he has a team to lead and not just individuals to bully.
The C of E does, I believe, sometimes give a degree of training to ordinands as to how to exercise their future leadership roles. But there still seem to be a lot of ‘imperial’ vicars about. My daughter recently moved away from one such church, and her mother-in-law from another.
The church where I have worshipped for 40 years ‘lost’ two vicars. In both cases they had pursued their own agendas by deliberately marginalising the P.C.C. In the first case (as a rookie churchwarden) I had to blow the whistle, just about in time as it turned out; in the second (by which time I had become a rookie Reader) I was preparing to take my family to the Baptist church in the neighbouring village - when the vicar resigned.
Knowing someone at diocesan level proved crucial in our own (first) case, when the bishop’s initial reaction to the troubles I had flagged up was to blame the ‘rebellious’ congregation. It was another senior person, who knew us rather better, who was able to correct the bishop’s take on the situation - and probably prevented a major catastrophe becoming a total collapse.
One cautionary tale arising from our second difficult vicar’s decline and fall: a member of the PCC who couldn’t stand bullies ‘took the vicar on’, got elected churchwarden on that ticket, but afterwards took a long, long, time before he stopped throwing his weight around, with all kinds of people, in a particularly grumpy way - much like the vicar had in fact.
I would love to hear in a couple of months time that your PCC is becoming more efficient and your incumbent has mellowed. Finally, and perhaps to state the obvious, during these episodes I found prayer particularly vital.
IME the most difficult scenarios were (a) Deacons agreeing that something needed to be done but being frightened of personalities or "rocking the boat"; and/or (b) Deacons just sitting in their hands and constantly deferring decisions. An outright argument - if carried out in the right way - could be far better as at least folk are getting honestly involved.
Just a brief update, both positive and negative.
The incumbent has today gone on a Leadership course, at the behest of the Diocese, though I guess it is part of CMD.
We had an encouraging Vision morning with the Bishop, though unfortunately he talked for more than half of the time. Excellent points began to emerge.( If only we could have started there and continued, instead of listening to the waffle first.)
At a recent confirmation, the number 2 Bishop extolled the virtues of the Gift of Listening, which I trust the incumbent will be taking on board.
However, our confirmation candidate, a young lad from a church family ( the only long term family where three generations attend regularly). received only 20 mins of preparation! Whilst we acknowledge the input of Lois and Eunice, the Rector has a role to play too!
Other pastoral concerns ( re neglect to visit a terminally ill lady and others ) are being shared. One church family has been extremely upset by a refusal to baptise their grandchild- whatever the rights and wrongs of that case, the pastoral damage is great. And so on.
Yet we are exhorted to give encouragement and not be critical.
The incumbent told the PCC that he had heard that someone had written to the Archdeacon (but not sent it ) and how hurt and upset he was. Whatever next!
Please keep to discussion of the issues without personal attacks on the theological, spiritual or whatever qualities of your interlocutors - or a very heavy thurible will swing your way. Magnillo, if this resembles your remark do not consider it an accident. Just saying ... for now.
/hosting
My sincere apologies, especially to @Puzzler. I was out of line.
Where it gets really toxic is if there is a wife who takes the same view (!) or, worse, the parish takes the same line.
Thank you Magnilo - and Zappa.
Apology accepted.
As the situation progresses, I am finding it helpful to re-read some of these comments, so please could Hosts kindly not delete just yet. Many thanks,
May I make a suggestion: if you are really having problems with your vicar, go and speak to the vicar in private. If you cannot reach an understanding, take another person with you to try to settle the differences. If that does not work, bring it to the council as a whole.
On the other hand, if you seriously cannot support your vicar in his ministry, then ask for a peaceful release from the PCC.