Special General Conference of the United Methodist Church to address LGBTQ+ ordination and marriage

It seemed worth noting that a special session of the (usually quadrennial) General Conference of the United Methodist Church convened today and runs through Tuesday. It is intended to address the church’s position with regard to ordination, marriage and inclusion of LGBTQ+ members.

NPR’s report: United Methodist Church To Debate LGBTQ Clergy And Same-Sex Weddings
«13

Comments

  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    Thanks, Nick, I'll keep an eye on developments.
  • RuthRuth Admin Emeritus
    The Associated Press is reporting that earlier today "half the delegates at an international conference voted to maintain bans on same-sex weddings and ordination of gay clergy." The final vote is tomorrow, but they're preparing to break up the denomination: in the same article AP says, "delegates Monday approved plans that would allow disaffected churches to leave the denomination while keeping their property."

    Why is Christianity dying on the vine in the West? This. And seriously - it deserves to die, when this shit is going down in 2019.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    That looks like very bad news. The title "United Methodist Church" is looking particularly poignant.

    Is Christianity dying on the vine in the West? It seems very hamstrung, very fractured, by internal divisions over issues of gender, sexuality and personal morality. There are all sorts of historical reasons for that. The irony from my POV is that our divisions over marginalised minorities within the church seem likely to increase the marginalisation of the church as a whole. There is a blind spot there. I remember Rowan Williams (when Archbishop of Canterbury) making that very point after a failed debate over women bishops in the UK General Synod.

    Here is a link.

    Again from my POV, this really is not about the church "moving with the times" or denying its roots in historical revelation. It is simply about what is just, what is fair.
  • Thanks.
    From the link: “We Africans are not children in need of Western enlightenment when it comes to the church’s sexual ethics,” the Rev. Jerry Kulah, dean at a Methodist theology school in Liberia, said in a speech over the weekend. “We stand with the global church, not a culturally liberal church elite in the U.S.”

    When I read this sort of stuff I think 'where on earth does the church go from here'?

    I suppose this impinges on the Methodist Church over here with their debate up-coming.

    Sad, sad, sad.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    "We Africans". Wow. He should read some comments by Desmond Tutu.

    Particularly this one.
    We are made for goodness. We are made for love. We are made for friendliness. We are made for togetherness. We are made for all of the beautiful things that you and I know. We are made to tell the world that there are no outsiders. All are welcome: black, white, red, yellow, rich, poor, educated, not educated, male, female, gay, straight, all, all, all. We all belong to this family, this human family, God's family.
  • Sad indeed. I’ll hope for better news today, but I’m not sure I have much reason to hope.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    I take it you are involved personally, Nick. If so, commiserations. It's a tough place to be.
  • Barnabas62 wrote: »
    I take it you are involved personally, Nick.
    Not particularly, except insofar as having many friends and some extended family in the UMC, which is fairly thick on the ground in these parts. For some of them, this is indeed a personal and challenging issue. Some friends have already left the UMC over it.

    My tribe spent years working through these issues and finally emerged on the other side, but not without some significant pain in the process. I was hoping maybe the UMC would find a better way.

  • I'm very surprised at this. I thought it was a no-brainer that the UMC would follow along just behind the slightly more liberal churches, Episcopalian, Lutheran, and Presbyterian. They were next in line and then would come Baptist, Church of Christ, etc, until everyone but the most fundamentalist churches would be left.
  • Twilight wrote: »
    I'm very surprised at this. I thought it was a no-brainer that the UMC would follow along just behind the slightly more liberal churches, Episcopalian, Lutheran, and Presbyterian. They were next in line and then would come Baptist, Church of Christ, etc, until everyone but the most fundamentalist churches would be left.
    Around a third, maybe more, of the UMC's membership is outside the U.S. Much of that membership is in Africa, where the churches generally tend to be more conservative. I think the sense if that if the UMC was just an American denomination, it would have followed the other denominations you mentioned. But together, the conservative in the States and overseas form a majority.

    I'd note that some reports I have seen say that the "Traditional Plan" approved by the General Conference now has to go to the UMC's Judicial Council, which will review whether the plan comports with the UMC's constitution, and which rejected an earlier version of the Traditional Plan. I don't know or really understand the ins-and-outs of that. Perhaps a United Methodist can provide some detail (if any are reading this thread).


    BTW, if by "Church of Christ" you mean either the United Church of Christ or the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), they have already moved to the more liberal position.

  • Oh that's great Nick. I didn't know. I went to a United Church of Christ college, long ago, and at that time they were very conservative and didn't even allow musical instruments in church. I knew that had changed, but not the other things.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited February 28
    Twilight wrote: »
    Oh that's great Nick. I didn't know. I went to a United Church of Christ college, long ago, and at that time they were very conservative and didn't even allow musical instruments in church. I knew that had changed, but not the other things.
    Hmmm. Are you sure it was a congregation of the United Church of Christ and not simply a Church of Christ? (Yes, it can be very confusing, I know.)

    The UCC is the descendant of Congregationalists (think the Pilgrims and Puritans), with German Reformed roots as well. While there are certainly more conservative congregations in the UCC, on the whole it is fairly liberal, and has been for a while—it was actively involved in the Civil Rights Movement and was, I think, the first US denomination to support LGBTQ+ rights, starting as far back as the late 60s or early 70s. Same-sex marriage was approved and supported in 2005. I've never heard of a UCC congregation that didn't allow instrumental music.

    On the other hand, not allowing instrumental music is a hallmark of many churches of Christ, which are autonomous congregations arising out of the American Restoration movement. Sometimes called Campbellites, they are related to the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), but are generally more conservative.
  • There's a large progressive/inclusive Methodist church near me. The pastor hung a black drape over the "United Methodist" portion of their sign yesterday, and a friend of mine who goes there attended a vigil they were having last night. All Methodists hurt by this recent decision are in my prayers.
  • Yes it was just called "Church of Christ" then. I just thought maybe they had since then "United."
    My confusion goes back to me starting Ohio Valley College and telling other kids I was a Presbyterian and them telling me they were Christians. Actually, I found it annoying as well as confusing.
  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    There's a large progressive/inclusive Methodist church near me. The pastor hung a black drape over the "United Methodist" portion of their sign yesterday, and a friend of mine who goes there attended a vigil they were having last night. All Methodists hurt by this recent decision are in my prayers.
    I saw a picture of a sign draped like that. I wonder if it was the same church.

    Twilight wrote: »
    Yes it was just called "Church of Christ" then. I just thought maybe they had since then "United."
    My confusion goes back to me starting Ohio Valley College and telling other kids I was a Presbyterian and them telling me they were Christians. Actually, I found it annoying as well as confusing.
    My (Presbyterian) grandmother knew a women who went to a church of Christ and who referred to all other kinds of churches—Presbyterian, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, whatever—as "nickname churches." That's been a family joke for 70-some years now.

  • It does seem like some African Christians are using this issue to assert their dominance over the former missionary powers. There seem to be elements of this in the United Methodist Church and in GAFCON, along with an unholy alliance with western conservatives and their wealthy backers.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    The wonderful Desmond Tutu is a pretty "rare bird" to find in any community, particularly one where his people group were subject to years of demeaning and oppression.

    I've told it before but my all time favourite Desmond story is of him confronting a small army of police and security officers who had invaded his cathedral prior to a prayer meeting over apartheid. Mandela was in prison and white control seemed to be unshakeable. He addressed the invaders in these terms. "Welcome to this house of prayer. And we see the signs of your power. Your guns and your tape recorders and your note book. But God is not mocked.

    You have already lost! "

    Then he walked down from the pulpit and smiled as only Desmond can. "So - since you have already lost ... why not join the winning team?" And he led his frightened congregation out of the church to safety. And no one lifted a finger to stop him.

    Given his background, character and courage, it beats me that folks have such difficulty with his inclusive words. There's a man who understands the intrinsic wrongness of the oppression of the different. Not from books, but from experience.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate
    I heard him speak, years ago, at Grace Cathedral here in SF. Interesting experience. There was more in the way of direct politics in the sermon and song(s) than I was used to. (Broad brush: US churches are less likely to do that--or, at least, were then.)

    He spoke well. He was also mischievous: he quietly snuck off from his security minders after the service! There was a low-key panic: walkie-talkie conversations, etc. Don't remember how quickly he was found, or if he just showed up.

    Have enjoyed many media interviews he did, over the years. And yes, he does have a great smile!
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    Desmond is into "God's politics". To quote Jim Wallis, he understands why the Right often get it Wrong and the Left often don't seem to get it.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    I heard him speak, years ago, at Grace Cathedral here in SF. Interesting experience.
    I heard him preach at Duke University Chapel in the mid-80s, and I got to shake his hand. It was all wonderful.

    Meanwhile, there’s a UMC church a block from our church. 30 or so years ago, members of that church persuaded the bishop to transfer their pastor—not at the usual pastoral shufle time, but mid-appointment—because he was speaking up in favor of LGBTQ+ rights. It was not a pretty situation.

    Today, as I drove past, I saw their lawn was full of small rainbow flags, and rainbow ribbons had been woven through the handrails on the front steps.

    I couldn’t help but think how far so many have come, and how far there is still to go.

    Lord, have mercy.
  • Did you all see the speech by the young delegate from Upper New York? There's video of him starting at about 1:39:00 in this video from the conference (the link should start the video at about where he begins speaking).

    I thought his description of doing evangelism on his college campus was really moving.
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    Wow, he really was good! He reminded me of a time, about 25 years ago or more, when I worked for a UMC church in the Chicago suburbs. Through our doors came a young woman of about my own age - mid 20s - who had been pointed to the Methodists as people who would not turn her away because she was a Lesbian. I spent a lot of time with her, helping her unpack, and the pain of rejection she had been carrying was immense. It would be sad if now the UMC were not to be a church to which people such as her could be pointed.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Thank you so much for sharing that, @Antisocial Alto. He was really inspiring.

    Here is William Willimon's take on it from "The Christian Century": "The Methodist mess in St. Louis"
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    That was special. Such passion, such commitment, such honesty. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    Will there be mass disobedience of this decision in the US? What will the the repercussions of that? Will it lead to some kind of schism, and which side of the debate and/or geographical area would the schism be based in?

    I'm worried that it's quickly becoming impossible for any church body with representative and/or democratic methods of government to encompass both the global North and the global South. Are there exceptions to this trend?
  • Depends what you mean by the global south and global north. The Presbyterian Church in Ireland has gone full-tilt reactionary, refusing to baptise the children of same sex couples and cutting ties with other Presbyterian churches. Meanwhile the Anglican church in Brazil has endorsed equal marriage, and Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia have just about managed to find a compromise that keeps them together, while straddling the north/south socio-economic divide.
  • Barnabas62Barnabas62 Purgatory Host, Epiphanies Host
    It's a divisive issue. Note the GAFCOn strapline - "guarding and proclaiming the unchanging truth in a changing world". They take that theme of "guarding the unchanging truth" as a red line. I'm not sure that provides much scope for dialogue.

    "The unchanging truth" is "what we have always believed". They stand firm on that.
  • stonespringstonespring Shipmate
    Depends what you mean by the global south and global north. The Presbyterian Church in Ireland has gone full-tilt reactionary, refusing to baptise the children of same sex couples and cutting ties with other Presbyterian churches. Meanwhile the Anglican church in Brazil has endorsed equal marriage, and Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia have just about managed to find a compromise that keeps them together, while straddling the north/south socio-economic divide.

    I should have realized that Australasia complicates the North/South thing. But First World/Third World, Developed/Developing, and High/Middle/Low-Income countries are also problematic terms. I don't know what the right term to use is. There also are big cultural differences between Latin America and Africa, between each of them and Asia, and within those regions as well.

    The legal control of the Anglican Communion over its provinces is rather limited, as is the control, I believe, of the Lutheran World Federation. Is there an international Presbyterian/Reformed body (The World Communion of Reformed Churches?) that you were referring to vis a vis Ireland, and does it have any more direct legal control over the Presbyterian Church in Ireland than the Anglican Communion does over its provinces? (Or were you just referring to friendly relations between the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and the United Reformed Church, PCUSA, etc., ie, to churches that do not, as far as I understand, have any legal control over each other?) The United Methodist Church (which only exists in a certain number of countries and therefore is not a global Methodist body like the World Methodist Council) seems rather unique to me among non-Pentecostal, non-megachurch-Based, Mainline Protestant Churches (the Seventh Day Adventist Church might be an exception, if you consider it Mainline) in that it is governmentally unified (ie, has a government with real teeth) like a denomination would be at the national level but has large proportions of its population in both North America and Africa. Can you think of any other cases like this?

    I know that many Anglican Provinces in wealthy countries are very small in terms of their countries' population, so the Anglican Episcopal Church of Brazil might seem large compared to them, but Brazil's Anglican Church appears to me to be pretty small within Brazil and within Anglicanism at large. The large Anglican Provinces that have leant their heft to GAFCON are big both within Anglicanism and within their home countries.

    The United Methodist Church may not be a big part of the population in all of the African and other countries where it exists, but those non-US countries form a big share of the population of the church and of the representatives in its governing body.

    The Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia is an interesting example. What share if its total population, in the country New Zealand, is in the "New Zealand" part of it (as opposed to Aotearoa), and what share of the church is in the country of New Zealand overall (as opposed to the rest of Polynesia)?
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    It does seem like some African Christians are using this issue to assert their dominance over the former missionary powers. There seem to be elements of this in the United Methodist Church and in GAFCON, along with an unholy alliance with western conservatives and their wealthy backers.

    Unfortunately the white liberal American UM's are very much playing into this narrative by uttering all kinds of nasty generalizations about African Methodists, everything short of Churchill's "beastly people with a beastly religion," which just reinforces the perception that neocolonialism lurks behind the rainbow flag. There is all this talk about, "let's see how they feel when we stop giving them money!" The general sense is that these American UM's want to cut off Africa, the Philippines, etc., entirely. At a recent conference of African-American UMC bishops, a woman shared her experience as an observer at the general convention- she went into the bathroom and three white people ambushed her, assuming she was a delegate from Africa, and verbally abused her as a bigot, etc. I got a sense that the African-American UM leaders are generally pro-inclusion but some of them are wondering aloud if being stuck in a solely American denomination, separated from African Methodists and dominated by white liberals, is a place they want to be. So cutting off the African Methodists may cause even more harm than anticipated. And it's true that there are small voices among African Christians, including Methodists, against the currently prevailing attitude, and it's ridiculous to think that homophobia is a universal or eternal principle on that vast continent. Yet there seems to be little or no attempt by liberal UM's in America to establish real connections with these folks. The liberal UM's rail against the the WCA's political acumen as if being politically inept is a sign of virtue.

  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    @stonespring I haven't been following this thread, but aren't Aotearoa and New Zealand the same place, but in different languages?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    The Associated Press is reporting that earlier today "half the delegates at an international conference voted to maintain bans on same-sex weddings and ordination of gay clergy." The final vote is tomorrow, but they're preparing to break up the denomination: in the same article AP says, "delegates Monday approved plans that would allow disaffected churches to leave the denomination while keeping their property."

    Why is Christianity dying on the vine in the West? This. And seriously - it deserves to die, when this shit is going down in 2019.

    If it does, then what's going to happen to Christianity in Africa as it's population adds another two billion 80% socially conservative humans this century? Triples.

    Islam is thriving in the West with implacable homophobia.

    Christianity is dying in the West because it's not incarnational, not radical, not relevant at all to any major social issue, of which poverty tops all others.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Islam is thriving in the West with implacable homophobia.

    This stereotype is not borne out by polling, which finds American Muslims to be more accepting of homosexuality (52%) than white American evangelicals (34%). Even foreign born American Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality (49%) than white American evangelicals.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited May 9
    And I would also question whether homophobia is an essential characteristic of growing African Christianity.

    That said, having the right position on this issue does not fill the pews. A lot of debate can be had about why Christianity is receding in the West, but formulating a popular stance on identity politics is clearly not enough to stop it.

    A more strident (which is to say, more Christian) approach to poverty, defending the poor and not shying away from denouncing the rich and the entire social system built on usury, might make a big difference. The current revival of the Poor People's Campaign in the US comes to mind... has it attracted many new Christians? I don't know. It's certainly something we should do regardless. But who can say for sure if it will attract greater numbers?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Islam is thriving in the West with implacable homophobia.

    This stereotype is not borne out by polling, which finds American Muslims to be more accepting of homosexuality (52%) than white American evangelicals (34%). Even foreign born American Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality (49%) than white American evangelicals.

    Accepting in what way?
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    And I would also question whether homophobia is an essential characteristic of growing African Christianity.

    That said, having the right position on this issue does not fill the pews. A lot of debate can be had about why Christianity is receding in the West, but formulating a popular stance on identity politics is clearly not enough to stop it.

    A more strident (which is to say, more Christian) approach to poverty, defending the poor and not shying away from denouncing the rich and the entire social system built on usury, might make a big difference. The current revival of the Poor People's Campaign in the US comes to mind... has it attracted many new Christians? I don't know. It's certainly something we should do regardless. But who can say for sure if it will attract greater numbers?

    I'm only aware of homophobic African Christian voices apart from Archbishop Tutu's, where there is any vocalization on non-heterosexuality. Liberalism goes with urbanization and wealth, so I'm sure they'll lighten up in a century or so.

    I resonate with your last two paragraphs.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Islam is thriving in the West with implacable homophobia.

    This stereotype is not borne out by polling, which finds American Muslims to be more accepting of homosexuality (52%) than white American evangelicals (34%). Even foreign born American Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality (49%) than white American evangelicals.

    Accepting in what way?

    Respondents were asked to choose between two statements: "homosexuality should be accepted by society" or "homosexuality should be discouraged by society". 52% of American Muslims chose the former while 33% chose the latter. This seems quite a far cry from "implacable homophobia".
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Indeed. How does that translate to the experience of homosexuals within Islam? Which is implacably homophobic in theory. It certainly is vocally so round here. That's Leicester. The main mosque. My office, my boss. Birmingham Muslim primary school parents an hour away. There is no wiggle room in Islam. Unlike Christianity. Which of course has been implacably homophobic in the very main and still is one way and another, even in the West. As well as damnationist, which again Islam is in theory. All Christians and Hindus are damned for greater shirk and all atheists for that unforgivable sin too.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    It certainly is vocally so round here. That's Leicester. The main mosque. My office, my boss. Birmingham Muslim primary school parents an hour away. There is no wiggle room in Islam.

    The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    edited May 9
    As with any longstanding religion with wide following, the rules, and the interpretation of the rules, is a complicated thing. According to some interpretations, Islam has an "implacable" opposition to alcohol, and yet alcohol beverages abound in many Islamic cultures. The Sufi saint Rumi wrote lots of poems about drinking and attempts to interpret these as merely metaphorical are not convincing.

    Likewise you can find a long history of pederasty among the elites in various Islamic cultures.

    "But the book says x" is seldom a useful approach to understanding religions.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    It certainly is vocally so round here. That's Leicester. The main mosque. My office, my boss. Birmingham Muslim primary school parents an hour away. There is no wiggle room in Islam.

    The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

    By way of anec. No. Just 'cos you got the brain, edgercation, an' that. You ent got my cognitively biased bladder. I feel it in me water Croesos. Islam is a keeper. The most perfectly evolved religion so far and for the next thousand years no problem. Ten. It cannot be reformed. It can be repressed as in the Soviet Union and China, but will always recover. One of its perfections is that it nearly asks too much of human nature yet offers the illusion of universal social justice, unity, austere beauty, brotherhood, purity, the sacred. It's beguiling I tell you. From purely anecdotal experience. In the mosque. At work. On the street. In volunteering. It ticks, tickles all of the moral taste receptors.

    I'm sure you have all the right arguments, in spades, with your awesome, trained, intellect. But you don't have my stubborn second nay third rate disposition. Prejudice. Instinct.

    And I'm never bloody wrong.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    edited May 10
    As with any longstanding religion with wide following, the rules, and the interpretation of the rules, is a complicated thing. According to some interpretations, Islam has an "implacable" opposition to alcohol, and yet alcohol beverages abound in many Islamic cultures. The Sufi saint Rumi wrote lots of poems about drinking and attempts to interpret these as merely metaphorical are not convincing.

    Likewise you can find a long history of pederasty among the elites in various Islamic cultures.

    "But the book says x" is seldom a useful approach to understanding religions.

    The only Muslims I know who drink, in a city of 50,000 of them, are a handful of alcoholics and one of my barbers, an Uzbek who has to be very careful. I feel for him as he has to pretend to be devout and he feels suffocated.

    I'm always amused to see devout men and the occasional gang of lads in shalwar khameez sneeking a fag. But NEVER a woman. The niqab is too much of a filter.

    I forgot, how could I! More anecdata; I've worked and holidayed in Muslim countries. And oh aye, Islam is a broad and deep church. With all manner of outliers. Like the gay mystic Sunni Persian Rumi. I've been hit on by a couple or three desperate Muslim men. And for all the formal requirement of Muslims to hate kafirs and condemn shirkers and atheists to eternal damnation, the guys at work are very nice people. People do paradox well. Tenets of belief are nonsense after all.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    I mean, look at Brunei. Says one thing - stone gays and adulterers to death, slowly, with small, sharp stones - does another - nothing. Yet. Just wait until the oil and gas run out by 2040.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    All the raki being sold and consumed in Turkey isn't buying and drinking itself; likewise the kumis in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, beer in Indonesia, etc.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Islam is thriving in the West with implacable homophobia.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    More anecdata; I've worked and holidayed in Muslim countries. And oh aye, Islam is a broad and deep church. With all manner of outliers. Like the gay mystic Sunni Persian Rumi.
    Martin54 wrote: »
    I mean, look at Brunei.

    You seem to be using a very idiosyncratic definition of "the West", one that apparently includes "Muslim countries" [ where @Martin54 has worked and holidayed ] and Brunei but excludes the United States. Either that or you're shamelessly trying to move the goalposts after posting something indefensible.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    You attribute far too much coherence to my narrative.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    All the raki being sold and consumed in Turkey isn't buying and drinking itself; likewise the kumis in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, beer in Indonesia, etc.

    The 'stans were Soviet until a generation ago and are still undergoing reversion to conservative Islam. Turkey is strongly under that tension. And Indonesia.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    All the raki being sold and consumed in Turkey isn't buying and drinking itself; likewise the kumis in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, beer in Indonesia, etc.

    The 'stans were Soviet until a generation ago and are still undergoing reversion to conservative Islam. Turkey is strongly under that tension. And Indonesia.

    And thus examples of how Islam is thriving in "the West"? Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
  • SirPalomidesSirPalomides Shipmate
    The Soviets did not invent or popularize kumis. In Turkey, AKP has been in power nearly two decades but the booze continues to flow, as it did before the rise of Kemalism. Generally Mongol and Turkic Muslims in Central Asia interpreted the Hanafi code of jurisprudence to permit alcoholic beverages other than wine. This goes back centuries and was a source of scandal for Muslims visiting from other parts.

  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    All the raki being sold and consumed in Turkey isn't buying and drinking itself; likewise the kumis in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, beer in Indonesia, etc.

    The 'stans were Soviet until a generation ago and are still undergoing reversion to conservative Islam. Turkey is strongly under that tension. And Indonesia.

    And thus examples of how Islam is thriving in "the West"? Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

    Never start a land war in Asia.
  • Martin54Martin54 Shipmate
    The Soviets did not invent or popularize kumis. In Turkey, AKP has been in power nearly two decades but the booze continues to flow, as it did before the rise of Kemalism. Generally Mongol and Turkic Muslims in Central Asia interpreted the Hanafi code of jurisprudence to permit alcoholic beverages other than wine. This goes back centuries and was a source of scandal for Muslims visiting from other parts.

    Now that is fascinating. The Deobandi Kashmiris of Leicester are obviously not representative...
This discussion has been closed.