Please see Styx thread on the Registered Shipmates consultation for the main discussion forums - your views are important, continues until April 4th.

What is True in the Bible ?

13»

Comments

  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate

    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    IMV, The Bible is God's method of solving all such issues. It is his inviolate message to humanity from outside time..

    But why do you think that?

    Well, now you are asking an explanation for faith. One does not explain spiritual matters naturally, except by analogy or indirectly..

    However, Posit that God who created this time/space /material universe actually exists independent of same (as he must.) However, WE as part of the creation are enclosed within it yet within us, we bear an element of his image and so simultaneously seek a fulfilment beyond it. IOW an element of us, the spirit component, exists with the longing for our creator.

    Posit further that we need a redemptive line of communication to the creator for this possibility. That line of communication is the word HE has spoken from beyond our present time domain. As proof of his presence, he gives prophecy. He predicts for us what will occur and it does. Thus, Christ is born and dies as predicted by scripture. Thus God, through Isaiah, calls Cyrus by name many years before his birth. etc etc.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    Martin 54: All we can know is what's in our heads. How did it get there?
    What is in our heads, it is pretty certain, enters them rather than is generated from within them. Otherwise why would Paul describe our thinking in terms of a spiritual fight...'taking every thought captive.'
  • MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    IMV, The Bible is God's method of solving all such issues. It is his inviolate message to humanity from outside time..

    But why do you think that?

    Well, now you are asking an explanation for faith. One does not explain spiritual matters naturally, except by analogy or indirectly..

    However, Posit that God who created this time/space /material universe actually exists independent of same (as he must.) However, WE as part of the creation are enclosed within it yet within us, we bear an element of his image and so simultaneously seek a fulfilment beyond it. IOW an element of us, the spirit component, exists with the longing for our creator.

    Posit further that we need a redemptive line of communication to the creator for this possibility. That line of communication is the word HE has spoken from beyond our present time domain. As proof of his presence, he gives prophecy. He predicts for us what will occur and it does. Thus, Christ is born and dies as predicted by scripture. Thus God, through Isaiah, calls Cyrus by name many years before his birth. etc etc.

    So it's faith. You have faith that the Bible is as you say. Because we need it to be so.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    IMV, The Bible is God's method of solving all such issues. It is his inviolate message to humanity from outside time..

    But why do you think that?

    Well, now you are asking an explanation for faith. One does not explain spiritual matters naturally, except by analogy or indirectly..

    However, Posit that God who created this time/space /material universe actually exists independent of same (as he must.) However, WE as part of the creation are enclosed within it yet within us, we bear an element of his image and so simultaneously seek a fulfilment beyond it. IOW an element of us, the spirit component, exists with the longing for our creator.

    Posit further that we need a redemptive line of communication to the creator for this possibility. That line of communication is the word HE has spoken from beyond our present time domain. As proof of his presence, he gives prophecy. He predicts for us what will occur and it does. Thus, Christ is born and dies as predicted by scripture. Thus God, through Isaiah, calls Cyrus by name many years before his birth. etc etc.

    So it's faith. You have faith that the Bible is as you say. Because we need it to be so.

    Well, I think you probably are working with an atheistic definition of faith. IE leap in the dark. Faith is actually ‘substance’.. genuine knowledge based on the implanted word. See James 1:21 and Hebrews 11:1. When Jesus cursed the fig tree, He knew what would happen. When I trust the Bible is God’s word, I know that it is the case. It is not a leap inthe dark. Now you will only buy that if you share the experience of it which you may or may not. No one can convince another at a heart level. Only the Holy Spirit can do that with open hearts. So no,it is nothing to do with ‘I need it to be’ rather I know that it is.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    MPaul wrote: »
    Martin 54: All we can know is what's in our heads. How did it get there?
    What is in our heads, it is pretty certain, enters them rather than is generated from within them. Otherwise why would Paul describe our thinking in terms of a spiritual fight...'taking every thought captive.'

    Enters them how?
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    From the vantage point of modern historiographical principles, very little in the in the canonical books is true or at the very least verifiable.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    What is true in the Bible is the message (if ever we mortals can find it). What is not always true is the story through which the message is told - does anyone believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, for example.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    What is true in the Bible is the message (if ever we mortals can find it). What is not always true is the story through which the message is told - does anyone believe that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, for example.

    It is interesting. There are 'great fishes' We do not know what kind is referred to. The account seems to foreshadow the death and burial of Jesus as he made his last sign, the sign of Jonah. This would suggest Jonah was dead and resurrected. It says he had a brush with 'Sheol'. What is certain is that God is in these stories
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Whether it was a whale or some other big fish, would you agree that it simply did not happen?
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Whether it was a whale or some other big fish, would you agree that it simply did not happen?

    I would agree that the Bible says it did.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    edited April 2019
    MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    IMV, The Bible is God's method of solving all such issues. It is his inviolate message to humanity from outside time..

    But why do you think that?

    Well, now you are asking an explanation for faith. One does not explain spiritual matters naturally, except by analogy or indirectly..

    However, Posit that God who created this time/space /material universe actually exists independent of same (as he must.) However, WE as part of the creation are enclosed within it yet within us, we bear an element of his image and so simultaneously seek a fulfilment beyond it. IOW an element of us, the spirit component, exists with the longing for our creator.

    Posit further that we need a redemptive line of communication to the creator for this possibility. That line of communication is the word HE has spoken from beyond our present time domain. As proof of his presence, he gives prophecy. He predicts for us what will occur and it does. Thus, Christ is born and dies as predicted by scripture. Thus God, through Isaiah, calls Cyrus by name many years before his birth. etc etc.

    So it's faith. You have faith that the Bible is as you say. Because we need it to be so.

    Well, I think you probably are working with an atheistic definition of faith. IE leap in the dark. Faith is actually ‘substance’.. genuine knowledge based on the implanted word. See James 1:21 and Hebrews 11:1. When Jesus cursed the fig tree, He knew what would happen. When I trust the Bible is God’s word, I know that it is the case. It is not a leap inthe dark. Now you will only buy that if you share the experience of it which you may or may not. No one can convince another at a heart level. Only the Holy Spirit can do that with open hearts. So no,it is nothing to do with ‘I need it to be’ rather I know that it is.

    You know that the universe is six thousand years old and that God is Killer. What's that got to do with heart, or mind beyond cognitive bias for that matter?
  • MPaul wrote: »
    Well, I think you probably are working with an atheistic definition of faith.

    Well, you are wrong.
  • MPaulMPaul Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    IMV, The Bible is God's method of solving all such issues. It is his inviolate message to humanity from outside time..

    But why do you think that?

    Well, now you are asking an explanation for faith. One does not explain spiritual matters naturally, except by analogy or indirectly..

    However, Posit that God who created this time/space /material universe actually exists independent of same (as he must.) However, WE as part of the creation are enclosed within it yet within us, we bear an element of his image and so simultaneously seek a fulfilment beyond it. IOW an element of us, the spirit component, exists with the longing for our creator.

    Posit further that we need a redemptive line of communication to the creator for this possibility. That line of communication is the word HE has spoken from beyond our present time domain. As proof of his presence, he gives prophecy. He predicts for us what will occur and it does. Thus, Christ is born and dies as predicted by scripture. Thus God, through Isaiah, calls Cyrus by name many years before his birth. etc etc.

    So it's faith. You have faith that the Bible is as you say. Because we need it to be so.

    Well, I think you probably are working with an atheistic definition of faith. IE leap in the dark. Faith is actually ‘substance’.. genuine knowledge based on the implanted word. See James 1:21 and Hebrews 11:1. When Jesus cursed the fig tree, He knew what would happen. When I trust the Bible is God’s word, I know that it is the case. It is not a leap inthe dark. Now you will only buy that if you share the experience of it which you may or may not. No one can convince another at a heart level. Only the Holy Spirit can do that with open hearts. So no,it is nothing to do with ‘I need it to be’ rather I know that it is.

    You know that the universe is six thousand years old and that God is Killer. What's that got to do with heart, or mind beyond cognitive bias for that matter?

    Well Marin54 FWIW I know neither of those things.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    MPaul wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Whether it was a whale or some other big fish, would you agree that it simply did not happen?

    I would agree that the Bible says it did.

    That's not an answer to my question.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    MPaul wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    MPaul wrote: »
    IMV, The Bible is God's method of solving all such issues. It is his inviolate message to humanity from outside time..

    But why do you think that?

    Well, now you are asking an explanation for faith. One does not explain spiritual matters naturally, except by analogy or indirectly..

    However, Posit that God who created this time/space /material universe actually exists independent of same (as he must.) However, WE as part of the creation are enclosed within it yet within us, we bear an element of his image and so simultaneously seek a fulfilment beyond it. IOW an element of us, the spirit component, exists with the longing for our creator.

    Posit further that we need a redemptive line of communication to the creator for this possibility. That line of communication is the word HE has spoken from beyond our present time domain. As proof of his presence, he gives prophecy. He predicts for us what will occur and it does. Thus, Christ is born and dies as predicted by scripture. Thus God, through Isaiah, calls Cyrus by name many years before his birth. etc etc.

    So it's faith. You have faith that the Bible is as you say. Because we need it to be so.

    Well, I think you probably are working with an atheistic definition of faith. IE leap in the dark. Faith is actually ‘substance’.. genuine knowledge based on the implanted word. See James 1:21 and Hebrews 11:1. When Jesus cursed the fig tree, He knew what would happen. When I trust the Bible is God’s word, I know that it is the case. It is not a leap inthe dark. Now you will only buy that if you share the experience of it which you may or may not. No one can convince another at a heart level. Only the Holy Spirit can do that with open hearts. So no,it is nothing to do with ‘I need it to be’ rather I know that it is.

    You know that the universe is six thousand years old and that God is Killer. What's that got to do with heart, or mind beyond cognitive bias for that matter?

    Well Marin54 FWIW I know neither of those things.

    Wow! Praise the Lord! What do you know about the meaning of the texts that imply and describe those things now then?
  • agingjbagingjb Shipmate
    Was there a universal flood which left eight survivors? I would have thought that Genesis clearly states this, and that there is clear evidence against it.

    The truth or falsehood of this claim has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of any other part of the collection of texts called the Bible.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    edited April 2019
    Surely that is an example of a morally true fable? The question is, what is the story doing in the Bible? Tobit seeks to explain that God will deliver the righteous, so maybe it is the same message. Or maybe it is intended to express the spiritual meaning of a rainbow as a sign of the Covenant between God and all living things on earth (Gen 9: 12-17).
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    What's moral about God all but committing speciecide?
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    Noah could have made use of the opportunity to get rid of mosquitoes, couldn't he?
  • agingjb wrote: »
    Was there a universal flood which left eight survivors? I would have thought that Genesis clearly states this, and that there is clear evidence against it.

    The truth or falsehood of this claim has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of any other part of the collection of texts called the Bible.

    But it has great bearing on what hermeneutical frameworks we should adopt.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Rublev wrote: »
    Noah could have made use of the opportunity to get rid of mosquitoes, couldn't he?

    Well, we do know that one of the first things Noah did after getting off the Ark was kill some of the animals.
  • RublevRublev Shipmate
    David Attenborough would not have been impressed.
This discussion has been closed.