Ship of Fools: Immaculate Heart of Mary, Grand Junction, Colorado, USA

The Mystery Worshipper

Ship of Fools: Immaculate Heart of Mary, Grand Junction, Colorado, USA

Lemonade, bagels, forgiveness, reconciliation – and a kerfuffle

Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here

Catholic Max

I find it a little insulting to call the music "Boomer Music".

Amanda B Reckondwyth

Oh Max, would you rather he had called it Singing Nun prattle, like I do?

Climacus

I am intrigued as to that kerfuffle! Thanks for a very interesting report.

And looking at their web page, the stained glass is indeed superb. Monument Canyon is on my bucket list.

Bishops Finger

Only those immediately concerned would be able to say, but I wonder if the kerfuffle involved some accident with the communion host, and/or wine (or both - maybe an attempt at intinction resulted in the wafer being dropped into the chalice?).

BTW, I'm not quite sure what 'Boomer Music' actually is, though I think I know what 'Singing Nun Music' means! Is 'Boomer Music' the sort of 'Jesus is my boyfriend' stuff you find in some evangelical fanes?

/tangent alert/
I sometimes wonder if the Roman church, at least in some parishes, would do better to forget about having hymns altogether, and just sing the Gloria, Psalm, Sanctus etc.. These could be rendered by one or two capable cantors, so the congregation wouldn't even have to try...
/carry on, as you were/

Amanda B Reckondwyth

Your guess was pretty much the same as mine -- perhaps the communicant choked on the wafer and accidentally spit it into the chalice.

Born in 1945, I'm just on the cusp of being a "Boomer" ("Baby Boomer" -- babies resulting from soldiers returning home from WW2 to the, erm, bosoms of their loving wives). We were just leaving our teen years behind when Vatican II took place, resulting in a plethora of folk masses and guitar hymns characterized by tuneless melodies and vapid lyrics, unfortunately picked up by hymnals such as Gather. Pope Gregory, Palestrina, Victoria and even Pietro Yon are still turning in their graves -- can't you hear them groan?

I agree -- go back to the glorious tradition of Western church music and forget about all this Singing Nun and Boomer stuff. That said, the very best music I've heard in Catholic churches is that led by choirmasters who know the value of the English and German hymn traditions as well as those of 19th century America. Unfortunately such folk are hard to come by.

Nick Tamen

Amanda B Reckondwyth wrote: »

I agree -- go back to the glorious tradition of Western church music and forget about all this Singing Nun and Boomer stuff.

I disagree. Some of that “Singing Nun and Boomer stuff” is, as far as I’m concerned just as good, and in some contexts better, than the so-called “glorious tradition of Western music,” which unlike contemporary music has had a number of centuries to cull out the dross. And I say that as one who is trained in and values that tradition of Western music (and who also, for full disclosure, is a hymn writer). But the Church is much, much bigger than that tradition of music, and any church that claims to be “catholic” should sing like it.

I’m pretty sure I’ve posted it before in a conversation like this one, but I’m hard pressed to find anything more worshipful or joyful than this from one of the epicenters of American Catholicism. I know it may not be everyone’s cup of tea. But then again, neither is Palestrina.

Alan29

I would rather attend mass where simple modern music was done well than one where more complex "traditional" stuff was done indifferently and therefore unworthily. Nothing sets my teeth on edge more than a badly balanced out of tune choir.

Forthview

I agree very much with Nick Tamen ( and that concerns virtually all of his posts !)
Before Vat 2 most Catholics would have attended Sunday Mass with no music at all.

At the one Missa Cantata the choir would sing, if lucky ?, all the sung parts of the Mass and there might be a hymn at the very end, chosen from one of the six or seven hymns which all Catholics knew.

Certainly in Scotland, gradually since Vat 2 most Catholic Sunday Masses have become a (sort of ) hymn sandwich with a hymn at the beginning, offering of bread and wine, Communion and end. There may be a singing of the Gloria and the Sanctus, but again there may not.

In the olden days only hymns where the text had been written by a Catholic were allowed, but now we have access to the whole hymnody written in or translated into English.

To my mind it is a subconscious alignment with the more dominant religious traditions which surround us.

It is rare, for example, in the Latin countries of France, Italy and Spain to hear so many hymns. Generally a musical Mass there finishes with an organ flourish.

On the other hand in Germanic countries there is a long tradition, even in Catholic churches ,of hymn singing and most Catholic dioceses would have their own prayer book, such as 'Gotteslob' in Germany and 'Heiliges Volk' in Austria which would contain many hymns as well as settings of the Mass in German.

Bishops Finger

My point was simply this - if Catholics, generally, don't sing (thanks, @Forthview for explaining the historic reasons why this might be), then it seems to me that the Mass would be better rendered without an attempt to include singing by a congregation which doesn't!

I agree wholly with @Nick Tamen that there is a shedload of good music, from all traditions, and periods, which a congregation that does sing, can use.

And @Alan29, yes, indeed - simple music done well is better than more complex music done badly. So said The Blessed Percy, so it must be right!

Alan29

Been going to Mass in France for 30 years on holiday.
Always been hymns. Mind you, French hymn writers have the unique knack of just avoiding memorable tunes, and of pitching everything about a minor third too high.
Was at Mass in a village church Calabria in May - hymns there too.

Bishops Finger

Hmm. On the occasions when I, too, have been to Mass in France, there have been hymns, and other musical bits.

Simple, but fairly well-sung - perhaps bad (or no) singing is an Anglophone RC thing?

Amanda B Reckondwyth

I wish you were a Mystery Worshipper, Alan.

Ah, Calabria. I could just imagine. My ancestry is Calabrese, and I suspect that most of the little old widows dressed in black who made up the Italian parish of my youth were Calabrese as well. I remember the hymns they used to sing at their Saturday morning devotion to Our Lady of Pompeii.

Forthview

I didn't say you don't hear hymns in France at a Sunday Mass. However it is a long standing tradition that there is an organ voluntary at the time of the Offertory and similarly at the end of the service.
On the other hand it is more common to hear more parts of the Ordinary of the Mass sung either in French or in Latin.

Forthview

I'm not sure if I've ever seen an actual Hymn Book in a French Catholic church. Any hymns would normally be printed on the Mass sheet for the day.
In May I was at a Sunday Mass in Toulouse. There were no hymns but there was an organist who encouraged the participants to sing the Kyrie in Greek, the Gloria and Sanctus in French and the Credo in Latin.

At the end of June I was at a Sunday Mass in Calais. It happened to be Corpus Christi.There was a hymn at the very beginning. Then,before the Gospel, with the help of a cantor the participants sang in French a translation of 'Ecce panis angelorum' At the end the priest
had (unusually now,) a Procession of the Blessed Sacrament round the church with the singing in French of 'Pange,lingua,gloriosi...' Both Latin and French were given on the Mass sheet but it was sung in French apart from 'Tantum ergo Sacramentum….'

Bishops Finger

IIRC, that was indeed the case when I attended Mass in Perpignan Cathedral (which has a Very Fine Organ - Cavaille-Coll, I think).

There was a cheerful prelude, as the priest and servers entered, followed by a short hymn (I knew the tune!). We sang the Lourdes Gloria (which I knew), a simple Psalm response, the Gospel Alleluia (same as the one we sing at Our Place), a Taize-style response to the Prayers of the Faithful, and a hymn after Communion. I can't recall if the Sanctus was sung, but I expect it was. The organist gave us a cheerful interlude for the Offertory, and a cheerful postlude after the Blessing.

Quite a lot of music, in all, and my recollection is that the congregation (not a particularly numerous one) joined in well. I did, anyway.

Ex_Organist

Bishops Finger wrote: »

IIRC, that was indeed the case when I attended Mass in Perpignan Cathedral (which has a Very Fine Organ - Cavaille-Coll, I think).

Perpignan Cathedral has two organs, both by Cavaillé-Coll (details here: https://www.musiqueorguequebec.ca/orgues/france/perpignan.html )

Bishops Finger

Thanks! I'd forgotten they have two...

It was the Principal Organ which was played on the day of my visit.

Alan29

Amanda B Reckondwyth wrote: »

I wish you were a Mystery Worshipper, Alan.

Ah, Calabria. I could just imagine. My ancestry is Calabrese, and I suspect that most of the little old widows dressed in black who made up the Italian parish of my youth were Calabrese as well. I remember the hymns they used to sing at their Saturday morning devotion to Our Lady of Pompeii.

I'm a parish musician so I tend to be busy on Sundays.

Augustine the Aleut

I was recently at a French-language wedding near Ottawa where the cantor sang Leonard Cohen's Alleluia as a post-communion hymn (albeit with French words, which may not have been an exact translation of the venerable Leonard's original).

Alan29

Augustine the Aleut wrote: »

I was recently at a French-language wedding near Ottawa where the cantor sang Leonard Cohen's Alleluia as a post-communion hymn (albeit with French words, which may not have been an exact translation of the venerable Leonard's original).

Must have nicked the idea from here
https://youtube.com/watch?v=v9-ZuTVPj4c