Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Thx. Didn't remember that bit. :(
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    edited February 12
    Golden Key wrote: »
    TBH, I don't understand (cross Pond) how anyone wields a seemingly unwieldy cricket bat--especially with such a short handle.

    And yes, I know it's used differently than in baseball.
    While on this side of The Pond many of us don't understand why you have grown men playing a version of a game that over here is played by girls, especially those under 12.

    As for a cricket bat being "unwieldy"!!! You have a large, flattish surface to hit a big, shiny red ball: as people on the West side of The Pond might say "what's not to like?" It certainly beats trying to hit a small, grey ball with a round, elongated wooden milk bottle such as this.

    @Golden Key @mousethief I think this may be what you referred to? As you can see, there is no suggestion that either baseball or rounders is any "version" of cricket, rather an alternative.

    FWIW on the rare occasions when I've been press-ganged into playing rounders I've made a complete horlicks of it.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Yes but back then it was almost certainly what we now call rounders - and certainly nothing much like the American game with special bats and balls and a pitcher's mound and protective clothing and a stadium etc. The similarities were that you would hit a ball (possibly with a bat, maybe with your hand) and run to various bases.

    AIUI, the American things you describe came about gradually. So there might have been more in common, once upon a time.

    BTW: when this came up before, long ago, there was UK Shipmate opinion that baseball was descended from rounders, which was described as a children's version of cricket. With, ISTM, an implication that there's nothing much to baseball.

    Not just a children's version. A girls' version. It was not only a condescending but also a very sexist comment.

    Possibly, but it's an accurate summary of how baseball is regarded over here.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Yes but back then it was almost certainly what we now call rounders - and certainly nothing much like the American game with special bats and balls and a pitcher's mound and protective clothing and a stadium etc. The similarities were that you would hit a ball (possibly with a bat, maybe with your hand) and run to various bases.

    AIUI, the American things you describe came about gradually. So there might have been more in common, once upon a time.

    BTW: when this came up before, long ago, there was UK Shipmate opinion that baseball was descended from rounders, which was described as a children's version of cricket. With, ISTM, an implication that there's nothing much to baseball.

    Not just a children's version. A girls' version. It was not only a condescending but also a very sexist comment.

    Possibly, but it's an accurate summary of how baseball is regarded over here.
    I think maybe maybe it’s time for me to watch A League of Their Own again.
  • Lacrosse was originated by Native Americans, possibly as early as 1100 AD (or CE).
  • Cathscats wrote: »
    Yes but back then it was almost certainly what we now call rounders - and certainly nothing much like the American game with special bats and balls and a pitcher's mound and protective clothing and a stadium etc. The similarities were that you would hit a ball (possibly with a bat, maybe with your hand) and run to various bases.

    No sports described by early C19 writers are like their early C21 versions. Sports weren't codified until the late C19. It's probably misleading to say that baseball is derived from rounders: they were codified separately from a range of existing games. In fact, sports continue to evolve. I can't talk about baseball, but football (the scoocer version) has recently introduced new rules for a video assistant referee ( technological advances) and about heading the ball (medical advances). Rugby Union changes its rules on an annual basis, and amateur boxing has changed the rules on head guards that I don't think I could tell you the current rules.

    In this regard sports are like language. They did not originate in one place at one time, rather, they evolve to meet the needs of the societies and cultures that create them.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    edited February 12
    Tell me about rule changes. I never got over the changes in netball. (Like basketball, but outdoors, played by girls because designed for girls by the redoubtable Madame Osterberg, founder of a PE teacher training college in Dartford, back in the early part of the last century. She supported gymslips to play netball in, and introduced Swedish drill as well. Wonderful woman by all accounts, devoted to girls' education, but destroyer of my attachment to PE.) I had just about got my primary agemind around the places that different players were allowed to go to on the court - I found this very difficult anyway, even under Osterberg rules - when somebody somewhere changed all the names of the positions, and the permitted parts of the court. I could never, even when teaching, get round this. (I was useless at Swedish drill as well - long fly over the vaulting horse AArgh.)
  • Penny S wrote: »
    Tell me about rule changes. I never got over the changes in netball. (Like basketball, but outdoors, played by girls because designed for girls by the redoubtable Madame Osterberg, founder of a PE teacher training college in Dartford, back in the early part of the last century. She supported gymslips to play netball in, and introduced Swedish drill as well. Wonderful woman by all accounts, devoted to girls' education, but destroyer of my attachment to PE.) I had just about got my primary agemind around the places that different players were allowed to go to on the court - I found this very difficult anyway, even under Osterberg rules - when somebody somewhere changed all the names of the positions, and the permitted parts of the court. I could never, even when teaching, get round this. (I was useless at Swedish drill as well - long fly over the vaulting horse AArgh.)

    I believe when I was in high school, the girls played this form of basketball. I remember thinking it was a complicated game.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I believe when I was in high school, the girls played this form of basketball. I remember thinking it was a complicated game.

    Shortly after my school went mixed, a boys' basketball team challenged the girls' netball team to a game of netball. The boys were convinced that they would wipe the floor with the girls.

    They were slaughtered. The boys kept trying to pay basketball, so as soon as one of them got the ball, he'd try to dribble, or do something else illegal, the whistle would go, and the girls would get the ball back.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Yes but back then it was almost certainly what we now call rounders - and certainly nothing much like the American game with special bats and balls and a pitcher's mound and protective clothing and a stadium etc. The similarities were that you would hit a ball (possibly with a bat, maybe with your hand) and run to various bases.

    AIUI, the American things you describe came about gradually. So there might have been more in common, once upon a time.

    BTW: when this came up before, long ago, there was UK Shipmate opinion that baseball was descended from rounders, which was described as a children's version of cricket. With, ISTM, an implication that there's nothing much to baseball.

    Not just a children's version. A girls' version. It was not only a condescending but also a very sexist comment.

    Possibly, but it's an accurate summary of how baseball is regarded over here.

    The whole country is sexist? Wait, don't answer that.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Netball - rules clearly written by someone into BDSM. Rounders and Baseball - how anyone hits a ball with a round bat, especially with any control of where the ball goes, is completely beyond me.
  • As with most school sports, watching Netball when high level teams are shown on TV is quite a revelation, it's amazing how much they can hustle within the rules. I've watched high level lacrosse as well and the tempo on that is scary.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    I believe when I was in high school, the girls played this form of basketball. I remember thinking it was a complicated game.

    Shortly after my school went mixed, a boys' basketball team challenged the girls' netball team to a game of netball. The boys were convinced that they would wipe the floor with the girls.

    They were slaughtered. The boys kept trying to pay basketball, so as soon as one of them got the ball, he'd try to dribble, or do something else illegal, the whistle would go, and the girls would get the ball back.

    We did the same. Girls had one extra player then boys. Boys could not believe the rules girls had to play by. Girls won.

  • I still have nightmares of the (field) hockey match we played against a sister school: not only did we get hammered but most of us got beaten up as well :grimace:
  • When my youngest son was in middle school, the community could not field a female soccer team, so the soccer team was mixed. When the team went up against some all-male clubs the girls got pretty hammered. One day, after a game, the girls were about to give up, but the coach encouraged them to stay with it because if they could survive the middle school competition against the boys they would be that much tougher in high school competition on an all-female team, which was true. The six girls that had been on the middle school team all went on to play college-level soccer after they completed high school.
  • When I was training to be a Physical Education teacher we were taught Lacrosse - none of us had played before and our skills were minimal. The only competitive matches we could play were against the Under 12 teams of local private schools for girls. We got absolutely hammered by the Roedean team -they were really brutal!
  • mousethief wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Cathscats wrote: »
    Yes but back then it was almost certainly what we now call rounders - and certainly nothing much like the American game with special bats and balls and a pitcher's mound and protective clothing and a stadium etc. The similarities were that you would hit a ball (possibly with a bat, maybe with your hand) and run to various bases.

    AIUI, the American things you describe came about gradually. So there might have been more in common, once upon a time.

    BTW: when this came up before, long ago, there was UK Shipmate opinion that baseball was descended from rounders, which was described as a children's version of cricket. With, ISTM, an implication that there's nothing much to baseball.

    Not just a children's version. A girls' version. It was not only a condescending but also a very sexist comment.

    Possibly, but it's an accurate summary of how baseball is regarded over here.

    The whole country is sexist? Wait, don't answer that.

    America-phobic possibly.

    @Gramps49, when you say, "the girls got hammered," that suggests they were badly drunk to Brit ears!
  • By 'hammered' I meant the schoolgirls won by an embarrassingly huge margin!
  • "Got hammered" sounds like "badly drunk" to my American ears, too.
  • Diomedes wrote: »
    When I was training to be a Physical Education teacher we were taught Lacrosse - none of us had played before and our skills were minimal. The only competitive matches we could play were against the Under 12 teams of local private schools for girls. We got absolutely hammered by the Roedean team -they were really brutal!

    Not surprising since the original UK women's lacrosse organisation in the UK was founded by a Rodean OG. It always amused me that it was the "nicer" girls' schools that played lacrosse, inflicting injury on a scale unknown on the hockey field.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited February 13
    From Thesaurus.com
    beat up
    [ beet-uhp ]
    SEE DEFINITION OF beat up
    verb assault

    Synonyms for beat up
    batter
    attack
    do over
    hammer
    knock around
    pulverize
    thrash

    Other people were saying they got hammered when they played against female teams.
  • Sorry @Gramps49, I knew what you meant. But, given this is a thread about language rather than games, I didn't know if "hammered" could mean "drunk" in the States.
  • It's funny how words can have more than one meaning, isn't it?
  • The discussion of lacrosse origins as by "native Americans" leads to how indigenous people are named as a group. In Canada you'd never hear "native Canadian". Usually "first nations" or "indigenous" unless being more specific about the group when they'd be named.

    Incidentally lacrosse is popular here. I played goal back when. There's a professional team here.
  • The discussion of lacrosse origins as by "native Americans" leads to how indigenous people are named as a group. In Canada you'd never hear "native Canadian". Usually "first nations" or "indigenous" unless being more specific about the group when they'd be named.

    Incidentally lacrosse is popular here. I played goal back when. There's a professional team here.

    I prefer First Nations, myself. Incidentally, it seems LaCrosse probably started on the Canadian Plains around 1100 CE.
  • IMHO "native Americans" is a reference to the continent.
  • The term "native American" will make people wince where I live. It's not terrible, but would be perceived negatively.
  • Certainly. I was explaining origin, not recommending you adopt the term.
  • For the further enlightenment of North American shipmates, 'That went well, didn't it?' would be what many Brits would want to say to our esteemed Prime Minister, following his recent government re-shuffle, which resulted in the resignation of his Chancellor (Secretary of the Treasury) and the dismissal of most of the competent members of his cabinet, while concentrating effective political power in the hands of his Policital Adviser (Chief of Staff) and leading candidate for the role of Prince of Darkness, Dominic Cummings. In effect, he has Trumped himself. Sorry if I have strayed into Hell territory.
  • I'm not sure if I'm right about the American side of this or not, but seems to me that you often shorten a name by using the second syllable, while in Britain we use the first.

    For example, Alexander. Over here that would be Alex, or even Al, while in America it becomes Xander (only heard here in conversations about Buffy). Or Elizabeth. Here that becomes Liz, or Lizzy, in America it seems to me it becomes Beth. (Beth is used over here, but as a name in its own right, or as short for Bethan or Bethany.)
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    edited March 1
    I think those examples work both sides of the Pond. One of my best friends at school (in Scotland) was a Beth shortened from Elizabeth, and I've come across Alexanders over here who are known as Xander or Zander (and one who was known as Santa). And of course, there are lots of Alexanders in Scotland who are known as Sandy, which is taken more from the second part of the name than the first.

    I also know a few Andrews who are known as Drew, all of them Brits; and several Williams who are known as Liam (most of them Irish), not to mention Roberts, Alberts and Herberts who are known as Bert ...
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Xanders are thin on the ground here. Most Alexanders become Alex, just as in (if @Robert Armin is correct) the UK.
  • There's perception of names from place to place. Liz is much more common here: associated with the perception of a competent person. Beth sounds passive and not a power name.

    Alex is definitely more common that the other short forms of Alexander and Alexandra both. I have the feeling Alexand/er/ra is fading in popularity now.

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 1
    mousethief wrote: »
    Xanders are thin on the ground here. Most Alexanders become Alex, just as in (if @Robert Armin is correct) the UK.
    Xander is, in my experience, a TV and movie character name. I don’t think I’ve encountered one IRL.

    My experience (no data to back it up) is that in the American South, or at least my corner of it, Alec and Sandy were traditionally at least as common as Alex, perhaps more so. Alex has become more common in recent decades.

    And I’ll add that a number of older men I know who go by Alex pronounce it like it was Alec, with a c-sound instead of an x-sound at the end. And the A is pronounced like the E in Eric, so that whether spelled Alec or Alex, it’s pronounced “Elec.” All my life, I’ve been told it’s “the old Southern pronunciation.” It’s fading, though.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I'm not convinced by the point about short forms of names, but I think there's quite a big difference between which names are popular, or even used at all, between both sides of the Atlantic. It's also quite often possible to guess someone's age by their name, more so with women's names than men's. How many girls are called Margaret or Carol these days, though there will be a lot of women between 60 and 80 with those names? And there's next to nobody my age called Emily or Amy, but I known quite a lot in the range 20-45.

    To us on the east side of the Atlantic, men's names after rather ordinary places sound a bit odd, like Kent or Chester. After all, if Kent, why not Wigan, Bath or Sheffield?

  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    Alex is definitely more common that the other short forms of Alexander and Alexandra both. I have the feeling Alexand/er/ra is fading in popularity now.

    Don't know about now, but 15-18 years ago it was the rage, judging from my students last year. Mostly the female form.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 1
    mousethief wrote: »
    Xanders are thin on the ground here. Most Alexanders become Alex, just as in (if @Robert Armin is correct) the UK.

    Never heard a Xander here, mostly Alex, sometimes Lex or Sandy.
  • PigwidgeonPigwidgeon Shipmate
    Xander had become more popular here in the U.S., but only very recently. I've only heard it used as a full name, not a shortening of Alexander.

    Elizabeth has so many possibilities. My first year in college there were three Elizabeths on my floor -- Libby, Beth, and Liz. That still left quite a few possibilities. (There were also three of us with my first name, which has no abbreviations, so we all used first name/last initial.)
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    I remember coming across a couple of Xanders online about twenty years ago, American guys, but they were screen names, so I don't actually know if they were the names they went by offline. I'd never heard it before and it didn't even occur to me at the time that it was short for Alexander. I have never come across it in the UK - I've known a couple of Alexanders called Alex here, thinking about it, but most people I know called Alex are female. Lexi is another shortened form of Alexandra, and Sandra, or Sandy. I'm not particularly seeing a pattern of using the first half of the name for shortening here in the UK - Elizabeths used to often be called Betty or Betsy.

    A difference I noticed between Canada and the UK was that Jennifers (at least of my generation) tended to be called Jenn (or Jen) in Canada, and would state very definitely that they didn't want to be called Jenny (I even asked why, and they said something about a stereotype with pigtails that the name was associated with) whereas in the UK, I knew lots of Jennifers who were called Jenny or Jenni - it was more the norm than Jen. Though I went to school with one Jennifer who liked to be called Nif!
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 2
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Xander had become more popular here in the U.S., but only very recently. I've only heard it used as a full name, not a shortening of Alexander.
    I’m thinking Americans can thank the awesome TV version of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” for Xander becoming a name people know.

    The only Lex I know of is Lex Luthor. (I do know some Lexis though.)

  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Xander had become more popular here in the U.S., but only very recently. I've only heard it used as a full name, not a shortening of Alexander.

    Elizabeth has so many possibilities. My first year in college there were three Elizabeths on my floor -- Libby, Beth, and Liz. That still left quite a few possibilities. (There were also three of us with my first name, which has no abbreviations, so we all used first name/last initial.)

    I was once honored with a request from a Vietnamese family to choose their newborn daughter's American name. I went with Elizabeth for precisely the reason you mention--I figured she would certainly be able to come up with a nickname she liked, in all that lot. (So of course 16 years later they were using the whole full name, yikes!)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    When I was named, my parents wanted a name that could not be shortened. However, it is a name that cycles through every 20 years.
  • TheOrganistTheOrganist Shipmate
    I haven't been to the USA for a few years but last time I was there my names seemed unknown, especially the middle one (Iolo) used by family.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    I'm not sure if I'm right about the American side of this or not, but seems to me that you often shorten a name by using the second syllable, while in Britain we use the first.

    For example, Alexander. Over here that would be Alex, or even Al, while in America it becomes Xander (only heard here in conversations about Buffy). Or Elizabeth. Here that becomes Liz, or Lizzy, in America it seems to me it becomes Beth. (Beth is used over here, but as a name in its own right, or as short for Bethan or Bethany.)

    I fear that your media habits may have misled you in your perception. I know several people named Alexander who go by Al or Alex, but have yet to meet a Xander.

    Elizabeth may be shortened to Ellie, Liz, or Beth, all of which I have encountered. I think Libby may be used more often in the States than in Canada.

  • Eliza, Liza, Ellie, Beth, Betty, Lilibet, Libby, Lizzie, Liz, Bethie, Betsy, and at a stretch, Ella or Bet.
  • The only Xander I've ever encountered was Scottish, in Fife, and I know one Zander in Canada.
    My maternal grandmother was christened Eliza (not Elizabeth). I've always liked that name, but it seemed too dated to pass on in the family when we might have done.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Eliza, Liza, Ellie, Beth, Betty, Lilibet, Libby, Lizzie, Liz, Bethie, Betsy, and at a stretch, Ella or Bet.
    I’ve also known an Elizabeth (generally pronounced Lizbuth where I grew up) who went by Libba.

    I’ve never encountered an Alexander who went by Al. All the Als I’ve known were named Allen or Albert.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2
    fineline wrote: »
    Lexi is another shortened form of Alexandra, and Sandra, or Sandy.

    Here, that would be spelt Lexie.

    Someone referred to Alec as an abbreviation. My experience here is that Alec is a male name on its own, with Alex being a diminutive of Alexandra, Alexandria and Alexander. Then of course there's Alexandrina to think about.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    Australian naming conventions:

    If a name is more than 1 syllable, shorten it to 1.

    If a name is 1 syllable, consider addnig a vowel at the end. Preferably 'o'.

    Thus "David" becomes "Dave" and then "Dave-o".
  • CathscatsCathscats Shipmate
    I am going into the local primary school in half an hour, There are three Zanders among the 120 pupils. In Scotland. There is also a Sandy. And a male and a female Alex. We need more names!
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