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Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    I'm not sure if I'm right about the American side of this or not, but seems to me that you often shorten a name by using the second syllable, while in Britain we use the first.

    For example, Alexander. Over here that would be Alex, or even Al, while in America it becomes Xander (only heard here in conversations about Buffy). Or Elizabeth. Here that becomes Liz, or Lizzy, in America it seems to me it becomes Beth. (Beth is used over here, but as a name in its own right, or as short for Bethan or Bethany.)
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    edited March 2020
    I think those examples work both sides of the Pond. One of my best friends at school (in Scotland) was a Beth shortened from Elizabeth, and I've come across Alexanders over here who are known as Xander or Zander (and one who was known as Santa). And of course, there are lots of Alexanders in Scotland who are known as Sandy, which is taken more from the second part of the name than the first.

    I also know a few Andrews who are known as Drew, all of them Brits; and several Williams who are known as Liam (most of them Irish), not to mention Roberts, Alberts and Herberts who are known as Bert ...
  • Xanders are thin on the ground here. Most Alexanders become Alex, just as in (if @Robert Armin is correct) the UK.
  • There's perception of names from place to place. Liz is much more common here: associated with the perception of a competent person. Beth sounds passive and not a power name.

    Alex is definitely more common that the other short forms of Alexander and Alexandra both. I have the feeling Alexand/er/ra is fading in popularity now.

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    mousethief wrote: »
    Xanders are thin on the ground here. Most Alexanders become Alex, just as in (if @Robert Armin is correct) the UK.
    Xander is, in my experience, a TV and movie character name. I don’t think I’ve encountered one IRL.

    My experience (no data to back it up) is that in the American South, or at least my corner of it, Alec and Sandy were traditionally at least as common as Alex, perhaps more so. Alex has become more common in recent decades.

    And I’ll add that a number of older men I know who go by Alex pronounce it like it was Alec, with a c-sound instead of an x-sound at the end. And the A is pronounced like the E in Eric, so that whether spelled Alec or Alex, it’s pronounced “Elec.” All my life, I’ve been told it’s “the old Southern pronunciation.” It’s fading, though.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I'm not convinced by the point about short forms of names, but I think there's quite a big difference between which names are popular, or even used at all, between both sides of the Atlantic. It's also quite often possible to guess someone's age by their name, more so with women's names than men's. How many girls are called Margaret or Carol these days, though there will be a lot of women between 60 and 80 with those names? And there's next to nobody my age called Emily or Amy, but I known quite a lot in the range 20-45.

    To us on the east side of the Atlantic, men's names after rather ordinary places sound a bit odd, like Kent or Chester. After all, if Kent, why not Wigan, Bath or Sheffield?

  • Alex is definitely more common that the other short forms of Alexander and Alexandra both. I have the feeling Alexand/er/ra is fading in popularity now.

    Don't know about now, but 15-18 years ago it was the rage, judging from my students last year. Mostly the female form.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    mousethief wrote: »
    Xanders are thin on the ground here. Most Alexanders become Alex, just as in (if @Robert Armin is correct) the UK.

    Never heard a Xander here, mostly Alex, sometimes Lex or Sandy.
  • Xander had become more popular here in the U.S., but only very recently. I've only heard it used as a full name, not a shortening of Alexander.

    Elizabeth has so many possibilities. My first year in college there were three Elizabeths on my floor -- Libby, Beth, and Liz. That still left quite a few possibilities. (There were also three of us with my first name, which has no abbreviations, so we all used first name/last initial.)
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I remember coming across a couple of Xanders online about twenty years ago, American guys, but they were screen names, so I don't actually know if they were the names they went by offline. I'd never heard it before and it didn't even occur to me at the time that it was short for Alexander. I have never come across it in the UK - I've known a couple of Alexanders called Alex here, thinking about it, but most people I know called Alex are female. Lexi is another shortened form of Alexandra, and Sandra, or Sandy. I'm not particularly seeing a pattern of using the first half of the name for shortening here in the UK - Elizabeths used to often be called Betty or Betsy.

    A difference I noticed between Canada and the UK was that Jennifers (at least of my generation) tended to be called Jenn (or Jen) in Canada, and would state very definitely that they didn't want to be called Jenny (I even asked why, and they said something about a stereotype with pigtails that the name was associated with) whereas in the UK, I knew lots of Jennifers who were called Jenny or Jenni - it was more the norm than Jen. Though I went to school with one Jennifer who liked to be called Nif!
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Xander had become more popular here in the U.S., but only very recently. I've only heard it used as a full name, not a shortening of Alexander.
    I’m thinking Americans can thank the awesome TV version of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” for Xander becoming a name people know.

    The only Lex I know of is Lex Luthor. (I do know some Lexis though.)

  • Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    Xander had become more popular here in the U.S., but only very recently. I've only heard it used as a full name, not a shortening of Alexander.

    Elizabeth has so many possibilities. My first year in college there were three Elizabeths on my floor -- Libby, Beth, and Liz. That still left quite a few possibilities. (There were also three of us with my first name, which has no abbreviations, so we all used first name/last initial.)

    I was once honored with a request from a Vietnamese family to choose their newborn daughter's American name. I went with Elizabeth for precisely the reason you mention--I figured she would certainly be able to come up with a nickname she liked, in all that lot. (So of course 16 years later they were using the whole full name, yikes!)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    When I was named, my parents wanted a name that could not be shortened. However, it is a name that cycles through every 20 years.
  • I haven't been to the USA for a few years but last time I was there my names seemed unknown, especially the middle one (Iolo) used by family.
  • LeafLeaf Shipmate
    I'm not sure if I'm right about the American side of this or not, but seems to me that you often shorten a name by using the second syllable, while in Britain we use the first.

    For example, Alexander. Over here that would be Alex, or even Al, while in America it becomes Xander (only heard here in conversations about Buffy). Or Elizabeth. Here that becomes Liz, or Lizzy, in America it seems to me it becomes Beth. (Beth is used over here, but as a name in its own right, or as short for Bethan or Bethany.)

    I fear that your media habits may have misled you in your perception. I know several people named Alexander who go by Al or Alex, but have yet to meet a Xander.

    Elizabeth may be shortened to Ellie, Liz, or Beth, all of which I have encountered. I think Libby may be used more often in the States than in Canada.

  • Eliza, Liza, Ellie, Beth, Betty, Lilibet, Libby, Lizzie, Liz, Bethie, Betsy, and at a stretch, Ella or Bet.
  • The only Xander I've ever encountered was Scottish, in Fife, and I know one Zander in Canada.
    My maternal grandmother was christened Eliza (not Elizabeth). I've always liked that name, but it seemed too dated to pass on in the family when we might have done.
  • Eliza, Liza, Ellie, Beth, Betty, Lilibet, Libby, Lizzie, Liz, Bethie, Betsy, and at a stretch, Ella or Bet.
    I’ve also known an Elizabeth (generally pronounced Lizbuth where I grew up) who went by Libba.

    I’ve never encountered an Alexander who went by Al. All the Als I’ve known were named Allen or Albert.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    fineline wrote: »
    Lexi is another shortened form of Alexandra, and Sandra, or Sandy.

    Here, that would be spelt Lexie.

    Someone referred to Alec as an abbreviation. My experience here is that Alec is a male name on its own, with Alex being a diminutive of Alexandra, Alexandria and Alexander. Then of course there's Alexandrina to think about.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Australian naming conventions:

    If a name is more than 1 syllable, shorten it to 1.

    If a name is 1 syllable, consider addnig a vowel at the end. Preferably 'o'.

    Thus "David" becomes "Dave" and then "Dave-o".
  • I am going into the local primary school in half an hour, There are three Zanders among the 120 pupils. In Scotland. There is also a Sandy. And a male and a female Alex. We need more names!
  • SparrowSparrow Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Eliza, Liza, Ellie, Beth, Betty, Lilibet, Libby, Lizzie, Liz, Bethie, Betsy, and at a stretch, Ella or Bet.
    I’ve also known an Elizabeth (generally pronounced Lizbuth where I grew up) who went by Libba.

    And one very famous person who is called Lillibet by her family ....


  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Cathscats wrote: »
    I am going into the local primary school in half an hour, There are three Zanders among the 120 pupils. In Scotland. There is also a Sandy. And a male and a female Alex. We need more names!
    @Cathscats although I know it isn't and the name comes from Macedonia, Alexander and its diminutive Sandy sound as unmistakably Scottish as Hamish, Archie and Fiona, just as Iolo (mentioned above), Glyn and Blodwyn are Welsh.
  • Oh yes, I know. And we aren't even in the part of Scotland which goes so much all out on Alexanders that they have (or used to, I knew one) "Double Alexanders" i.e. boys names Alexander Alexander, as first and surname. They pretty much have to abbreviate the first one!
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Interesting - I've never thought to associate the name Alexander with Scotland. I guess I don't know enough Scottish people. I'm realising I actually associate Alexander more with Russia, though it's not from there either, because in groups of Russian people, and when I've been to Russia, it always seems to be the most common male name, and always shortened to Sasha there.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    But Alexander is such a splendid name! Anyone with good taste would want to have a son named Alexander!
  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    One of the main characters in a well loved series was called "Twice", because he was Alexander Alexander. Does anyone else read Jane Duncan?
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Not for decades. I read some of my grandmothers Jane Duncan books.

    A quick search of Scotlandspeople shows that there have been hundreds of Alexander Alexanders since official registration began in 1855.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    But Alexander is such a splendid name! Anyone with good taste would want to have a son named Alexander!
    @North East Quine have you by any chance got one ?
  • DiomedesDiomedes Shipmate
    We have - and he's called Xander. Not a drop of Scottish blood though!
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    Elizabeth, Elsie, Betsy and Bess,
    All went together to see a bird's nest,
    They found one nest with five eggs in,
    They each took one and left four in.

    So I read somewhere.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    But Alexander is such a splendid name! Anyone with good taste would want to have a son named Alexander!
    @North East Quine have you by any chance got one ?

    :)
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    There were three Kings of the Scots who were named Alexander. This may account for its relative popularity.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Someone referred to Alec as an abbreviation. My experience here is that Alec is a male name on its own, with Alex being a diminutive of Alexandra, Alexandria and Alexander.
    That was me, I’ve encountered both—Alec as a diminutive for Alexander and as a name on its own. I’ve encountered the former more often.

    Among well-known folk, Alec Baldwin and Alec Douglas-Home are examples of the former (both Alexanders), and Alec Guinness an example of the latter.

  • Robert ArminRobert Armin Shipmate, Glory
    Not for decades. I read some of my grandmothers Jane Duncan books.

    They remain excellent. I have the whole series, and reread them every few years.

  • There are no more people named Gay or Gaye. It used to be men and women. Randy is also gone. As are a bunch of E names: Edward, Edwin, Edgar. I hear Douglas occasionally again, but almost never Doug.

    For girls/women, some names are definitely perceived negatively. Bertha means fat (big Bertha I think was a weapon), and Claudia means the person is a clod (not smart).

    There are a number of people I know, including my brother, who use none of their given names at all, and are known by something altogether different. Some names are definitely denigrated, or sound too ethnic. I know a Muhammed who is affectionately called Moe and periodically Moose.
  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I find these days people are much freer to create their own shortened version of their name, without feeling the need to stick to traditional diminutives. When I was a kid, shortened versions of girl's names generally ended in 'y' (Vicky, Mandy, etc.) or 'ie' to distinguish them from a male version ending in 'y' (eg. Bobbie for a girl, Bobby for a boy). Then it became popular for girls to end these names with 'i' instead, and then to experiment with all sorts of alternatives, and these days I observe it's far more popular to have gender-neutral shortened forms, whereas when I was a kid, people often liked to have a clear way of telling if a name was male or female.

    Something I observed as a kid, going to Baptist churches in the UK, was that most church kids had biblical names - lots of Hannahs, Rachels, Rebeccas, Peters, Pauls and Johns. All names that were fairly common names in general, but used much more in a church setting. I would often feel like the odd one out at church, as I would mentally go through everyone's names and realise I was the only kid in Sunday School with a non-biblical name! But when I went to Bible school for a year, before uni, where a lot of students were North American, I observed that the North American Christians my age were far less likely to have these names - they mostly had non-biblical names, or occasionally less usual biblical names, like Damaris.

    Similarly when I was in Canada in my 20s, the church people my age there tended not to have biblical names. What I noticed with the little kids (I taught Sunday School, so got to know all the kids' names) was the little girls would generally have non-biblical names (often newer names that I hadn't heard in the UK at all) while the little boys would more often have less-usual biblical names, like Ezra and Malachi.

    No idea if my experience is representative in any way, or if anyone else has ever observed similar, but it was interesting to observe. I've noticed among my Canadian church friends who now have children that the same pattern seems to happen. Girls have modern, non-biblical names and boys often have less-usual biblical names (by 'less usual', I mean these names were/are not common names in the UK, and also didn't seem common outside of church settings in the part of Canada where I was, so it is of course subjective).
  • There are no more people named Gay or Gaye. It used to be men and women. Randy is also gone. As are a bunch of E names: Edward, Edwin, Edgar. I hear Douglas occasionally again, but almost never Doug.
    Edward, and to a lesser extent, Edwin, are still very common here across the age span. Doug and Randy are fairly common too, and I know a number of Claudias, one of whom is 17 years old.

    Interesting how the use of names varies by region.

  • finelinefineline Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I was also just thinking that in my grandparents' generation, Richards were more likely to be shortened to Dick, and these days it seems more often Rich, and in between there has been Rick and Ricky. Also in my grandparents' generation, Margarets were more likely to be shortened to Peggy, and then Maggie/Mags was more popular, and the few people I know of my generation called Margaret don't shorten it.

    I've never heard of Claudia being perceived negatively. I don't think (unless I'm just oblivious) that this association happens in the UK - the 'claud' part is not a homophone of 'clod' in most British accents. I know a few Claudias. The names Sharon and Tracey were perceived negatively in the UK for a while, because of certain TV shows, but that seems to have passed by now. Right now, the name Karen is getting a bad rap (in North America too, I believe, and no doubt elsewhere) as representing an idea of the stereotypical 'boomer' who judges people and complains self-importantly about unimportant things. So I imagine there might be a drop in babies being named that for a while.

    I don't think Randy was ever common in the UK as a name, because of the sexual meaning it has here. It'd be like naming a kid Horny.
  • Randy is also gone.

    I know three Randys. The youngest is about 30.
  • Gill HGill H Shipmate
    Wasn't there a singer called Randy Van Warmer? That always got giggles in the UK.

    Can't believe no-one has mentioned the UK's most popular Xander at the moment. Guess the Ship doesn't have many fans of Pointless... Alexander Armstrong is often called Xander.
  • Gill H wrote: »

    Can't believe no-one has mentioned the UK's most popular Xander at the moment. Guess the Ship doesn't have many fans of Pointless... Alexander Armstrong is often called Xander.
    Yes, I was thinking that. When he did The Twelve Drinks of Christmas with his brother in law, Giles Coren, he called him Xander.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Can't imagine Randy becoming popular here.

    "Hi. I'm Randy!"
    "Hi. Shouldn't we at least have a drink first?"
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    Margaret is like Elizabeth in having a lot of nicknames. My mum was Moggie, but there's Meg, Meggie, Greta as well as those above. We know a Margy (hard G).
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I don't think I've come across since school days another Hester, or many a Muriel, Audrey, Priscilla or Irene. Ulster tended to be a redoubt of unfashionable names, passed down from grannies and great-aunts - Bertha, Mabel (not merely Mabel, but Mabel Wilhelmina). And one Juanita (I think the parents must have had the Spanish honeymoon).

    Until I went up to university I never of course met a Niamh or a Bernadette.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    As @fineline has said, Peggy and Peg were originally diminutives of Margaret, just as Polly was a diminutive of Mary via Molly. No idea where the shift from 'M' to 'P' comes from. The assumption that a parrot would be called Polly seems to come from a Broadside Ballad which seems once to have been very widely known.

    I also agree that Hannahs, Rachels, Rebeccas, Peters, Pauls and Johns do often tend to be church kids. I once guessed correctly that the husband of a mother of three sisters listed as Rachel, Rebekah and Ruth would turn out to be a Rev.

    For the reasons already given, Randy is out of the question as a name in the UK. Claudia, though is fine, and rather stylish.

    Incidentally, since she ruled after US independence are Victoria (short form Vicky) used as names much or even known south of the 49th Parallel?
  • Firenze wrote: »
    I don't think I've come across since school days another Hester, or many a Muriel, Audrey, Priscilla or Irene.

    I know a few Audreys and a couple of Irenes (most under 18).
  • Firenze wrote: »
    I don't think I've come across since school days another Hester, or many a Muriel, Audrey, Priscilla or Irene.
    We have both a Priscilla and an Irene in our congregation.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Firenze wrote: »
    Until I went up to university I never of course met a Niamh or a Bernadette.

    Bernadette was a moderately common name here, usually a Catholic girl in the days when that mattered. I don't know how many clients I had over the years, all sorts of names from many different nationalities, but no Niamh amongst them. Spellcheck seems to know it though.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    @Gee D what's confusing is that Niamh is pronounced either Neeve or sometimes with a slight extra syllable a bit like Neeǝve.

    Bernadette is an almost exclusively Catholic name as it's from St Bernadette of Lourdes. It's possibly even more a Catholic name than Wesley is a Methodist one.
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