I first read the report without looking at the 'More Church Info' bit, and wondered whether the service was held in the choir because something else was going on in the nave.
Ah-ha! So it was - the nave was the surface of the moon...a bit different from my own local Cathedral, with its golf-course, or Norwich, with its helter-skelter...
I trust, Bishop, you have made your feelings clear to the Dean at your local. I know Deans can do pretty much what they like, and I know that more than a few of them are frustrated entertainers.
But cathedral worship attendences are rising (even as parish worship declines). I can't believe it needs tawdry fairground attractions to assist in its rise in popularity.
@Box Pew, there is a thread in Purgatory about the use of cathedral naves, following on from the *gasp* horrific news of what Rochester has done.
The August holiday golf-course thingy has, apparently, been quite successful in doubling the number of visitors to the cathedral, and they also report a rise in the numbers attending Evensong (mostly the Saturday service, I should think - the weekday Evensongs in August are usually said, as the choir is on holiday).
I wasn't aware that I needed to make my feelings known to the Dean. I happen to think (YMMV) that using the nave for secular purposes is not, in itself, a Bad Thing. This is discussed on the thread to which I refer above.
I just wondered how early you were for the service? I was there too and there was a whole team of six stewards welcoming handing out service books and helping people find seats - so I was puzzled by the comment no one welcomed you. Were you very early - before the stewards came on duty?
The attendance was well in excess of 200 with around 50 unable to fit into the quire by my counting.
The Cathedrals theme this summer was a celebration based on the moon landing and the creation of the universe and has attracted well over 10000 visitors through the doors. Perhaps without knowing the back ground the sermon might have seemed out of place but it was part of a series of inter connected sermons running through the holiday period to integrate with the festival theme.
Perhaps revisit on a ‘normal’ Sunday for the full LICHFIELD cathedral experience- ?? As pointed out the Eucharist is normally in the nave which is also on occasion used for major exhibitions as on the day you visited
Yes. I was very early and I apologise for my lack of skill with numbers. However, I think there is an underlying argument here. Some years ago, I was in Lichfield near Christmas and the cathedral was so full of Christmas trees that we sang Evensong in the Chapter House. Very good it was too, but it did make we wonder what the Chapter thought the cathedral was for.
Urganda - you raise a very moot point and its not for me to answer for the 'Chapter' - however Cathedrals have a very complex role today. Not only do they have their own Worshipping community but they also serve the wider diocese and of course the whole community of their area. For example the Christmas tree festival and associated Christmas services are attended by over 30,000 people (more than the entire population of Lichfield) so it seems that large numbers of people who do not normally attend (or even cross the threshold) come into the Cathedral and at least are exposed to some aspect of the Christian story / message. So successful was the Christmas period last year that some services were over full - not a common problem for most churches today let alone one that can seat almost 1000 worshippers. I know that Chapter put many hours of though into how to present the Cathedral's message and outside of the Summer Festival and Advent the 'Holy' space is utilised in more conventional ways. You may have observed the large icon of Christ Crucified, Risen and Glorified in the nave - this has been placed there so that even during more secular events and concerts the reason for the Christian faith is clearly displayed in such a manner that no one can miss it!!! Certain areas are more carefully used than others - for example the Lady Chapel is rarely used for secular activity and during the Christmas festivals is used as an area where people can pray and light candles (which proves extremely popular sometimes with crowds of people sitting in reflective prayer). So whilst Rockets and Moon surfaces might not have immediate resonance with Christianity - the creation of the Universe certainly does. Its not everyones cup of tea (and I'm sure that there will be a goodly number who share your concerns) but given that for the other 10 months of the year the Cathedral is more conventionally presented I think it is worth the effort??????
Urganda - forgot to reiterate I really think that you should visit again in Oct or Nov to get a more normal taste of Lichfield - we will enjoy trying to spot the mystery worshipper and although the last burning at the stake for heresy was in lichfield we are are generally much friendly these days and will only keep you a slight singeing around the edges if you cannot follow the sermon!!!
I look forward to coming again. On the complex role of cathedrals today, I would like to state a minority view (for the moment, leaving out the history): The C of E is blessed with a daily liturgy, choir schools and clergy to perform it, and beautiful cathedrals. It is a minimum requirement to use what you have got. Never mind if nobody comes. You can do other things to pull in the punters. But 3 services day should happen anyway, regardless of other commitments. If tourists, schools, local charities... want to join in, that is fine. The services can be the background, but without that background, a cathedral is just another concert hall, museum, or space station.
I quite agree, and I think most English cathedrals do indeed offer 3 services (or more) daily.
Some parish churches offer at least daily Morning and/or Evening Prayer, as well as one or weekday Eucharists, even though numbers attending may be very small. Daily Mass at Our Place gets to double figures once a month, at the Walsingham Cell Mass - otherwise, it's the usual 2-4 Faithful Few.
Of course, the trouble with services that no one attends is that they cost money -- electricity, heating/air conditioning, candles, wear and tear on vestments, etc. -- and with no one in the congregation to help defray the cost, well, you get the picture. I suppose one could go medieval and hold services in a church lit by natural light only and heated/cooled by gentle breezes.
No problem with cathedrals. They are heated and lit for the tourists, who also give money. But I would welcome a few services without electricity. Litchfield has been there since 700 AD. How long has it had electricity? Our ancestors must have managed somehow.
Our ancestors used to manage with candles, rushlights, natural light (before the Victorians put in all that dark stained glass!), oil lamps, gas...
Some churches do have 'Carols by Candlelight', or whatever, at Christmas, and it's not uncommon for Taize Prayer services to be illuminated mostly by candlelight.
Mass used to be only allowed to be celebrated during daylight hours apart from Christmas midnight and (originally) the Easter Vigil before it nonsensically became a Saturday morning jobbie. For monastic offices during the dark they used candles.
Yes, and given that the Faithful didn't have service books/hymnbooks/notice sheets to juggle with, they didn't need a great deal of light - as long as they could hear the bell when the priest elevated the Host, all was well!
But, in late mediaeval times at least, there would probably have been a fair few candles burning at side altars, and shrines, during Mass.
What about later on, though, post-Reformation, with the services in English? I guess people eventually got to know the bits of the BCP they were supposed to join in with - there's not as much 'seasonal variation' as one finds these days - and Evensong (or 'Afternoon Service') might be held at around 3pm even in summer (as in Thomas Hardy's poem 'Afternoon Service at Mellstock').
We have a bit of a battle about lighting at our shack. Our normal Sunday Service times are 11am and 5pm in summer, and 11am and 4pm in winter. I like to use only the original light fittings from when the church was built in 1925 of which are the four in the chancel, and the 'side lights' at the tops of the columns in the nave. This is more than adequate, but I have a couple of folks who insist on using "the operating theatre" lights installed in the 1960s and the 1990s. Unfortunately, one of the advocates of very bright lighting is my wife!
Yes, and given that the Faithful didn't have service books/hymnbooks/notice sheets to juggle with, they didn't need a great deal of light - as long as they could hear the bell when the priest elevated the Host, all was well!
But, in late mediaeval times at least, there would probably have been a fair few candles burning at side altars, and shrines, during Mass.
What about later on, though, post-Reformation, with the services in English? I guess people eventually got to know the bits of the BCP they were supposed to join in with - there's not as much 'seasonal variation' as one finds these days - and Evensong (or 'Afternoon Service') might be held at around 3pm even in summer (as in Thomas Hardy's poem 'Afternoon Service at Mellstock').
Mediaeval Low Masses were celebrated with two candles, though most the Franco-Norman books - Cistercian, Dominican, Sarum, etc. - require only one light to illuminate the book. On the other hand, they can be quite lavish with the lamps and light around the altar. Some monastic orders were distinctly mean with the lighting - the Cistercians and Carthusians had pretty strict rules that lamps were to be lit only to illuminate the liturgical books from which Matins and Lauds were sung.
I have had the invariable parts of BCP MP and EP memorized for the last 30+ years which is why I am reluctant to switch over to anything else for the Offices. My grandfather also knew the BCP services more or less by heart, though he was an occasional church goer at best. FWIW I am nowhere near so secure on the communion service; with going back and forth over the years between 1662, Rite B, Series 1, and US 1928, the book is always used so I do not loose my way.
In the 17th and 18th centuries the reading desk and pulpit were usually placed somewhere where there was a decent amount of daylight, and stained glass was comparatively rare in those days. In parish church back home in Lincolnshire there is very little stained glass and in consequence you really do not need artificial light unless the skies are particularly gunmetal in colour, or it is early morning or late evening/night.
Yes, and given that the Faithful didn't have service books/hymnbooks/notice sheets to juggle with, they didn't need a great deal of light - as long as they could hear the bell when the priest elevated the Host, all was well!
But, in late mediaeval times at least, there would probably have been a fair few candles burning at side altars, and shrines, during Mass.
What about later on, though, post-Reformation, with the services in English? I guess people eventually got to know the bits of the BCP they were supposed to join in with - there's not as much 'seasonal variation' as one finds these days - and Evensong (or 'Afternoon Service') might be held at around 3pm even in summer (as in Thomas Hardy's poem 'Afternoon Service at Mellstock').
And how many of the congregation could have read a Massbook in any event?
There was a Bishop of Durham in the early C17 who was berated for using over 300 candles in the sanctuary of the Cathedral. His answer was to give enough light to read My recollection is that neither the Puritans nor the Commons thought much of that as an excuse.
It is unlikely that there would have been much more active participation in the Mass in 1460 as there was in 1960. My wife tells me that it amounted to kneeling and reciting the Rosary whilst Father got on with it, remembering only to stand in the right places a couple of times. The big difference was that in 1960 they receive communion much more often. Any sort of lighting beyond a certain low level of light so as not to trip over would have been distinctly optional.
The Dean of Durham involved was John Cosin, and his accuser was Peter Smart. Those two really did not get along. I suspect the occasional of sin was Candlemas which was on occasion when a northern churches still illuminated the body of the church in celebration of the feast. Ripon Minster was still doing so in the early 18th century.
And how many of the congregation could have read a Massbook in any event?
True, but towards the end of the 15thC, as printing of books became possible, a fair number of prayer/devotional books were published.
I guess only the better-educated, and more affluent, types could read, or afford, them, but they seem to have become popular as sources of devotion both during, and outside, Mass.
I look forward to coming again. On the complex role of cathedrals today, I would like to state a minority view (for the moment, leaving out the history): The C of E is blessed with a daily liturgy, choir schools and clergy to perform it, and beautiful cathedrals. It is a minimum requirement to use what you have got. Never mind if nobody comes. You can do other things to pull in the punters. But 3 services day should happen anyway, regardless of other commitments. If tourists, schools, local charities... want to join in, that is fine. The services can be the background, but without that background, a cathedral is just another concert hall, museum, or space station.
As a rule there are a minimum of three services at Lichfield on weekdays - morning prayer, a Eucharist and Evensong, on Sunday a minimum of four. These are supplemented by the enormous number of services held for church festivals, Saints days and of course Easter / Christmas - I certainly don't think that the Chapter could be accused of neglecting the daily cycle of Anglican worship (which continued in Lichfield even during the Commonwealth period - albeit in the Chapter House). Tourists are usually invited to join in (with varying degrees of success) but for certain the services take place regardless of anything else that may be going on within the Cathedral.
Jolly good. Glad to hear it. I'll be back'
But weren't we arguing about electricity?
Re. Bishop Cosin, I regret the loss of his woodwork in Brancepeth church more than any other loss it can think of, perhaps because I never saw it.
Comments
Ah-ha! So it was - the nave was the surface of the moon...a bit different from my own local Cathedral, with its golf-course, or Norwich, with its helter-skelter...
Well done, @Urganda - keep the reports coming!
But cathedral worship attendences are rising (even as parish worship declines). I can't believe it needs tawdry fairground attractions to assist in its rise in popularity.
The August holiday golf-course thingy has, apparently, been quite successful in doubling the number of visitors to the cathedral, and they also report a rise in the numbers attending Evensong (mostly the Saturday service, I should think - the weekday Evensongs in August are usually said, as the choir is on holiday).
I wasn't aware that I needed to make my feelings known to the Dean. I happen to think (YMMV) that using the nave for secular purposes is not, in itself, a Bad Thing. This is discussed on the thread to which I refer above.
The attendance was well in excess of 200 with around 50 unable to fit into the quire by my counting.
The Cathedrals theme this summer was a celebration based on the moon landing and the creation of the universe and has attracted well over 10000 visitors through the doors. Perhaps without knowing the back ground the sermon might have seemed out of place but it was part of a series of inter connected sermons running through the holiday period to integrate with the festival theme.
Perhaps revisit on a ‘normal’ Sunday for the full LICHFIELD cathedral experience- ?? As pointed out the Eucharist is normally in the nave which is also on occasion used for major exhibitions as on the day you visited
IMHO, as long as the daily worship continues, and space is available for private prayer, this is not a Bad Thing.
Presumably the trees were only in situ for a short time (said he, hopefully).
Some parish churches offer at least daily Morning and/or Evening Prayer, as well as one or weekday Eucharists, even though numbers attending may be very small. Daily Mass at Our Place gets to double figures once a month, at the Walsingham Cell Mass - otherwise, it's the usual 2-4 Faithful Few.
Some churches do have 'Carols by Candlelight', or whatever, at Christmas, and it's not uncommon for Taize Prayer services to be illuminated mostly by candlelight.
But, in late mediaeval times at least, there would probably have been a fair few candles burning at side altars, and shrines, during Mass.
What about later on, though, post-Reformation, with the services in English? I guess people eventually got to know the bits of the BCP they were supposed to join in with - there's not as much 'seasonal variation' as one finds these days - and Evensong (or 'Afternoon Service') might be held at around 3pm even in summer (as in Thomas Hardy's poem 'Afternoon Service at Mellstock').
Mediaeval Low Masses were celebrated with two candles, though most the Franco-Norman books - Cistercian, Dominican, Sarum, etc. - require only one light to illuminate the book. On the other hand, they can be quite lavish with the lamps and light around the altar. Some monastic orders were distinctly mean with the lighting - the Cistercians and Carthusians had pretty strict rules that lamps were to be lit only to illuminate the liturgical books from which Matins and Lauds were sung.
I have had the invariable parts of BCP MP and EP memorized for the last 30+ years which is why I am reluctant to switch over to anything else for the Offices. My grandfather also knew the BCP services more or less by heart, though he was an occasional church goer at best. FWIW I am nowhere near so secure on the communion service; with going back and forth over the years between 1662, Rite B, Series 1, and US 1928, the book is always used so I do not loose my way.
In the 17th and 18th centuries the reading desk and pulpit were usually placed somewhere where there was a decent amount of daylight, and stained glass was comparatively rare in those days. In parish church back home in Lincolnshire there is very little stained glass and in consequence you really do not need artificial light unless the skies are particularly gunmetal in colour, or it is early morning or late evening/night.
And how many of the congregation could have read a Massbook in any event?
There was a Bishop of Durham in the early C17 who was berated for using over 300 candles in the sanctuary of the Cathedral. His answer was to give enough light to read My recollection is that neither the Puritans nor the Commons thought much of that as an excuse.
The Dean of Durham involved was John Cosin, and his accuser was Peter Smart. Those two really did not get along. I suspect the occasional of sin was Candlemas which was on occasion when a northern churches still illuminated the body of the church in celebration of the feast. Ripon Minster was still doing so in the early 18th century.
True, but towards the end of the 15thC, as printing of books became possible, a fair number of prayer/devotional books were published.
I guess only the better-educated, and more affluent, types could read, or afford, them, but they seem to have become popular as sources of devotion both during, and outside, Mass.
As a rule there are a minimum of three services at Lichfield on weekdays - morning prayer, a Eucharist and Evensong, on Sunday a minimum of four. These are supplemented by the enormous number of services held for church festivals, Saints days and of course Easter / Christmas - I certainly don't think that the Chapter could be accused of neglecting the daily cycle of Anglican worship (which continued in Lichfield even during the Commonwealth period - albeit in the Chapter House). Tourists are usually invited to join in (with varying degrees of success) but for certain the services take place regardless of anything else that may be going on within the Cathedral.
But weren't we arguing about electricity?
Re. Bishop Cosin, I regret the loss of his woodwork in Brancepeth church more than any other loss it can think of, perhaps because I never saw it.