Ship of Fools: St Saviour's, Leeds, England


imageShip of Fools: St Saviour's, Leeds, England

One of the nicest churches our Mystery Worshipper has ever visited!

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Comments

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 2020
    We used to do a similar service at Our Place once a month, during the incumbency of our previous priest-in-charge. We used the 1662 BCP for Evensong, with readings from the KJV of the Bible, but Benediction used Roman Catholic texts...

    The congregation was usually in single figures - 4 or 5, plus priest and server - and the service would usually be followed by tea & cake.

    Nowadays, we have Evening Prayer every Sunday, using the contemporary Franciscan Office, but I'm not sure what Father does as regards Benediction (which is advertised as being held on the first Sunday each month, and major Holydays). Alas, the congregation is still only 2 or 3 strong.

    I can't help feeling that more could be made of our service, if (for example) it was sung professionally (or semi-professionally), and followed by a proper supper.
  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick 8th Day Host, Admin Emeritus
    What is 'the Catholic version of the Lord's Prayer?'
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    I believe it's "But deliver us from evil" being the last line.
  • Yes - the line being followed by that peculiar, and IMHO unnecessary 'embolism' said by the priest ('Deliver us, Lord, from every evil etc. etc.').
    :grimace:
  • The 'embolism' in a number of slightly different forms is one of the oldest prayers of the liturgy,not just in the Roman rite,but in many others.
    The present Roman rite, in its English version ,adds the words which many reformed Christians earlier on added as a sort of'embolism' to the Lord's prayer ,namely 'for Thine is the Kingdom,the Power and the Glory.
    Interestingly ,at least for me, the Roman rite in its English version, retains the traditional 'thou' form - our Father who ART in Heaven,Hallowed be THY name etc. but goes back to the 'you' form for the doxology - for the kingdom,the power and the glory are YOURS.

    Hooker's Trick asked what the Catholic version of the Lord's prayer is. I think that the answers given are the answer he is looking for, but there were and are a number of other minor changes from the standard Anglican form. I'll only mention one ;
    Anglican Our Father WHICH art in Heaven...……archaic Tudor language
    Catholic Our Father WHO art in Heaven...………….

    In addition you have in Scotland the form which is popular with Presbyterians

    Presbyterian Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors
    Anglican/Catholic Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited February 2020
    Thanks, @Forthview, for the info re the embolism - I still find it rather intrusive and jarring, be it never so ancient, but that's just me being a Grumpy Old Git!

    There are indeed minor variations to the Lord's Prayer in various rites, but the C of E in Common Worship Order One gives both the traditional and the modern form, to be used as required.

  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick 8th Day Host, Admin Emeritus
    I believe it's "But deliver us from evil" being the last line.

    Aha! But that version is in BCP evensong also.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Forthview wrote: »
    The 'embolism' in a number of slightly different forms is one of the oldest prayers of the liturgy,not just in the Roman rite,but in many others.
    The present Roman rite, in its English version ,adds the words which many reformed Christians earlier on added as a sort of'embolism' to the Lord's prayer ,namely 'for Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory.

    We are amused that 450 and more years on, the modern Catholic liturgy uses the translation by Cranmer, condemned as a heretic.

    The embolism is odd. The present usage here in Catholic services is to stop at "But deliver us from evil" and proceed with a short prayer from the priest, followed by the congregation saying the embolism. It's so long since I've been to a Catholic mass said in English outside Australia that I can't remember if that is the pattern elsewhere. It seems different to that Forthview sets out.

  • O - I thought the word 'embolism' (which I understand as a blockage in a blood vessel!) applied to the bit that the priest says, before the congregation says 'For the Kingdom...'.

    IOW, stopping the flow of the prayer...

    Apologies for any confusion caused!

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited February 2020
    O - I thought the word 'embolism' (which I understand as a blockage in a blood vessel!) applied to the bit that the priest says, before the congregation says 'For the Kingdom...'.
    That’s correct. The embolism begins “Deliver us, Lord, we pray, from every evil . . . .” The part that follows, which begins “For Thine is the kingdom . . . /For the kingdom, the power . . . ,” is a doxology.

  • Yes, embolism is perhaps a strange word and I fear that it is being understood in deifferent ways by different people.
    The traditional Catholic version of the Pater Noster is not exactly the translation by Cranmer - the WHICH in the traditional Anglican version was very soon replaced by WHO in the Catholic version. I think,but don't know,that WHICH,as a relative pronoun referring to a person antecedent was already archaic certainly at the time of the publication of the 'King James'Bible'
    I would be extremely surprised that there were not English versions of the Pater Noster known in England,before the official break with Rome.

    The English version of the Roman rite is the only form mandated by the Catholic Church for celebrations of the Roman rite in English. I have never been to Australia but I can only think that a Roman rite Mass in English, certainly in a Roman Catholic church, would be exactly the same throughout the world.
    without putting in all the words we have
    Our Father,who art in Heaven...……..
    but deliver us from evil.

    The priest alone then says the embolism
    Deliver us,we pray,from every evil,
    graciously grant peace...……
    as we await the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Then the people add the doxology
    For the kingdom and the power and the glory are yours
    now and forever.
  • Forthview wrote: »
    Yes, embolism is perhaps a strange word and I fear that it is being understood in deifferent ways by different people.
    The traditional Catholic version of the Pater Noster is not exactly the translation by Cranmer - the WHICH in the traditional Anglican version was very soon replaced by WHO in the Catholic version. I think,but don't know,that WHICH,as a relative pronoun referring to a person antecedent was already archaic certainly at the time of the publication of the 'King James'Bible'
    I would be extremely surprised that there were not English versions of the Pater Noster known in England,before the official break with Rome.

    The English version of the Roman rite is the only form mandated by the Catholic Church for celebrations of the Roman rite in English. I have never been to Australia but I can only think that a Roman rite Mass in English, certainly in a Roman Catholic church, would be exactly the same throughout the world.
    without putting in all the words we have
    Our Father,who art in Heaven...……..
    but deliver us from evil.

    The priest alone then says the embolism
    Deliver us,we pray,from every evil,
    graciously grant peace...……
    as we await the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Then the people add the doxology
    For the kingdom and the power and the glory are yours
    now and forever.

    ICEL ensures that there is a single RC translation throughout the Anglophone world.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    Forthview wrote: »
    Deliver us, we pray, from every evil
    In the United States I've never heard anything but "Deliver us, O Lord, from every evil . . ."
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited February 2020
    Forthview wrote: »
    Deliver us, we pray, from every evil
    In the United States I've never heard anything but "Deliver us, O Lord, from every evil . . ."
    I think that’s the pre-2011 translation.

  • Well, thank you, all, for further clarification as to which bit is the embolism, and which bit is the doxology!
    :wink:

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