Ship of Fools: Spirit of Grace, Beaverton, Oregon, USA


imageShip of Fools: Spirit of Grace, Beaverton, Oregon, USA

Lutherans and Catholics unite for Ash Wednesday

Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here


Comments

  • Box PewBox Pew Shipmate
    ..... and may it last another thirty years !
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Indeed.

    A most fascinating church community - I recommend a visit to their website. Would that all churches were as welcoming, and inclusive!

    Are there many churches like this in the US of A? I don't think there are many in this country (UK), although I suppose that, if there were, they would be C of E/Roman Catholic (Lutherans being somewhat thin on the ground around here).

    I do know of a few 'shared' church buildings, but that may not necessarily mean that services, and other activities, are shared.
  • By 'this' country (UK) I suppose you mean England and possibly Wales ?
  • CofE is very thin on the ground in Scotland.
  • Yes - sorry - should have been clearer.

    I was thinking (in my insular way) of England, where I believe there are some shared churches, but I agree that Anglicans (in the form of Piskies) are not that common in Scotland.

    Many years ago, a new church was built in Aberdeen (St Columba, Bridge of Don?) where the two worship areas (one Church of Scotland, the other Roman Catholic) were joined by shared hall/community facilities, but AIUI the services were conducted separately.
  • Don't worry,BF. I won't hold it against you.The CofE,as such,either does not or hardly at all exists in Scotland.There is a church in Glasgow called St Silas which certainly used to claim to be a member church of the CofE under the supervision of an English bishop (Carlisle)
    It then became part of the Scottish Episcopal church but has recently parted company from the SEC which is not biblically minded enough for the good sized congregation of St Silas.
    Personally I appreciate very much ecumenical contacts but cannot see how the Community of Spirit of Grace can be 100% committed to the local Catholic diocese or bishop. I approve of joint services but not of those which would seek to blur at the edges Catholic doctrine. I have attended a Mass in Germany which was celebrated both by a Catholic priest and a (female) Lutheran pastor. This was very much a one off special event for ,unless one is therefor a special interparochial occasion. It would seem, however, that there is no difference between the celebrations of the Lutheran pastor and the Catholic priest - at least it would seem so. Unless one is actually there it is difficult to say.
    However I would send every good wish to those who regularly participate.
  • Again the SEC would often say that not all Anglicans are CofE.
  • Yes, it's a bit of a thorny thicket, and quite difficult to negotiate...

    I remember, many years ago, attending a joint C of E/RCC Pentecost Eucharist in a village church in Surrey. Come the Eucharistic Prayer, each priest said his own bit (the RCCs used the side altar), with one group waiting politely until the others had done (I can't recall who finished first!)

    The RCCs then received Communion from their priest at the side altar, whilst we Anglicans received at the main (nave) altar.

    This was a one-off, I know, but it showed what could be done, whilst still obeying the rules of the respective churches as regards Communion.

    (Re St Silas, Glasgow, I knew of its reputation, and the fact that it didn't fit in well with the Piskies in general, but I didn't know it had left the SEC).

  • Hookers_TrickHookers_Trick 8th Day Host, Admin Emeritus
    There is a joint Episcopal/ RC parish not a million miles from here: Holy Apostles, Virginia Beach.
  • Again it is difficult to know exactly what happens in Holy Apostles, but it seems that each group is able to claim that they are fully involved in their diocesan life both in the local RC diocese as well as the local Episcopal diocese .For Catholics, in particular, you cannot be really a Catholic and not be a full part of the diocesan life ,as the Church is a community, beyond the boundaries of a local parish
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    We have been to a joint Anglican/Catholic service here - not in Sydney mind you - where there was a common liturgy up to the Sanctus and Benediction. Then the priests continued jointly in a low voice, each using his own consecration of the same elements. Then we all took communion together. Very odd indeed and it did not feel right to us.
  • On reading more carefully about Spirit of Grace I see that the liturgy of the eucharist is not compromised by either group i.e. the first eucharist alternates between a Lutheran and a Catholic one and then the second celebration has a common Liturgy of the Word with two and separate celebrations of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This would seem to me entirely appropriate and helpful as leading some day to an even closer unity.
  • Amanda B ReckondwythAmanda B Reckondwyth 8th Day Host, Mystery Worship Editor
    Gee D wrote: »
    Then the priests continued jointly in a low voice, each using his own consecration of the same elements.

    There does seem to be a "Move over, you silly papist; this is how it's done" air about that.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    There are shared CofE/RC churches in England where the RC community is not big enough to have its own building. Off the top of my head Padstow in Cornwall and Kirkby Stephen in Lancashire. I am not sure that the sharing goes much deeper than sharing bills and scheduling a time when the RCs celebrate Mass.
  • Yes - there's a village church not too far from here where the RCs have Mass at 10am, and the Anglicans their service (which varies week-by-week) at 1115am.
    Forthview wrote: »
    On reading more carefully about Spirit of Grace I see that the liturgy of the eucharist is not compromised by either group i.e. the first eucharist alternates between a Lutheran and a Catholic one and then the second celebration has a common Liturgy of the Word with two and separate celebrations of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This would seem to me entirely appropriate and helpful as leading some day to an even closer unity.

    I agree, and my earlier query was meant to ascertain if there were any similar set-ups (sets-up?) in England, or other parts of the UK.

  • There is a lovely Anglican (AngloCatholic) church in the small town of Inveraray in Argyll.
    It was a church built for an English duchess of Argyll and later embellished by the 10th Duke Neil of Argyll. It is used now mainly for RC Sunday Mass and the local Episcopalians have a service about once a month.
    A Catholic church in one of the finest settings in Scotland is St Mary and St Finnan just beside the Glenfinnan viaduct (of Harry Potter fame). It is in a Catholic enclave but I came across a Presbyterian baptism being held in the church. I don't know what other use is made of this church by the local Presbyterians.
  • Marie GGMarie GG Shipmate Posts: 3
    I'm a member of this incredible community, and I'm so glad you received a warm welcome! For our congregation, separating for communion can be a difficult moment during our service. We always welcome opportunities to stay together in worship, so in our special services, that is often the case. Until the Catholic Church honors joint communion with the Lutheran church, we sadly have to separate.

    I too am a Lutheran married to a Catholic, and this community is sacred to me.

  • Marie GGMarie GG Shipmate Posts: 3
    Indeed.

    A most fascinating church community - I recommend a visit to their website. Would that all churches were as welcoming, and inclusive!

    Are there many churches like this in the US of A? I don't think there are many in this country (UK), although I suppose that, if there were, they would be C of E/Roman Catholic (Lutherans being somewhat thin on the ground around here).

    I do know of a few 'shared' church buildings, but that may not necessarily mean that services, and other activities, are shared.

    As far as we know, we are the only joint Lutheran-Catholic community in the world. We share space, funds, staff, and programs.
  • Marie GGMarie GG Shipmate Posts: 3
    Forthview wrote: »
    Don't worry,BF. I won't hold it against you.The CofE,as such,either does not or hardly at all exists in Scotland.There is a church in Glasgow called St Silas which certainly used to claim to be a member church of the CofE under the supervision of an English bishop (Carlisle)
    It then became part of the Scottish Episcopal church but has recently parted company from the SEC which is not biblically minded enough for the good sized congregation of St Silas.
    Personally I appreciate very much ecumenical contacts but cannot see how the Community of Spirit of Grace can be 100% committed to the local Catholic diocese or bishop. I approve of joint services but not of those which would seek to blur at the edges Catholic doctrine. I have attended a Mass in Germany which was celebrated both by a Catholic priest and a (female) Lutheran pastor. This was very much a one off special event for ,unless one is therefor a special interparochial occasion. It would seem, however, that there is no difference between the celebrations of the Lutheran pastor and the Catholic priest - at least it would seem so. Unless one is actually there it is difficult to say.
    However I would send every good wish to those who regularly participate.

    Our community is sanctioned by our local archdiocese and our priests are in good standing.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Gee D wrote: »
    Then the priests continued jointly in a low voice, each using his own consecration of the same elements.

    There does seem to be a "Move over, you silly papist; this is how it's done" air about that.

    The Catholic Church here has a substantially higher number of those professing adherence than does the Anglican; and then there's a higher attendance rate as well. It's more likely that it would be the Catholic priest trying to take precedence!
  • Marie GG ] thank you for your words and your testimony of faith and joy in the experience of this joint Lutheran and Catholic community. In my first reading of the report it seemed as though the communities made no distinction between the two groups.
    (Were that to be the case they could hardly be called joint Lutheran-Catholic for both groups would have disappeared and replaced by one new unit.)
    We live in a world which is divided by language, culture ,statehood, gender, religion and forms of the same religion. Those who seek to bring us together can be seen as the Peacemakers who are recognised as Children of God.
    Your community are bridge-builders trying to link two sides of understanding. A bridge often goes over water and for you that water is the water of baptism which you both share.

    My initial reserve was because It was not clear to me how the Catholic side was integrated to the wider Catholic Church. We are all individuals called individually and recognised individually by God, but for a Catholic, to be a Catholic, it is integral to the faith that one is linked in communion with the local Catholic bishop, recognised as such by the wider Church.
  • Yes, thank you @Marie GG for making things clearer.

    What I find sad is that the same arrangement is NOT so far established elsewhere, but maybe, in God's good time, it will be...
  • There was a shared RC/Anglican parish in Winnipeg, but sadly no longer..... https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/faith/partnership-ends-for-churches-232168151.html
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