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Purgatory : Racism in our family, now what?

Ethne AlbaEthne Alba Shipmate
edited April 2021 in Limbo
I am almost certain that I am Not the only one here who has blatantly racist family or extended family members.

Not talking about Great Uncle George who is 98yrs old. Not talking someone who (for whatever reason ) does not really understand.
I m talking about Is A Racist. Uses racist language casually and regularly.

My question is, how do you cope?

Where are the lines drawn?
«134567

Comments

  • My MiL is a Mail reader, and tends to regurgitate whatever nonsense they're spewing, but she doesn't tend to go for racist language. Hers is more the genteel those people sort of racism. With her not being my mother, I do my best to bite my tongue, and limit myself to gently challenging things where I'm pretty confident of my grounding in the facts. I know my dad had issues with both his parents being pretty racist, but was only able to challenge it much later in life, by which time his dad had long since passed.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    As my mother has gotten older she has become more racist. She is 95 and has some dementia. Over the years, the character of her neighborhood has changed with Latinos coming into the community to work on local dairies. She constantly complains they do not speak English. We just put up with it, but it will be interesting when at the end of the month when we gather together for a memorial service for my recently deceased brother. My son in law is Filipino. His daughter is half Filipino.
  • amyboamybo Shipmate
    My husband's best friend used to use this kind of language - and also sexist and homophobic language. Several years ago he said something homophobic while we were drinking, and I just let loose. I don't remember details, but I do remember shock at my foul language. He apologized sincerely, and I accepted. I don't hear so much crap anymore, and he and our friends know a gentle prodding is coming if I hear it (unless it's directed at a kid, in which case I let loose again). They respect that. But I don't think I'd have the temperament to do that to someone I consider my elder, not a peer.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    No point confronting the senile.
  • Sigh.... I wish it could be excused by illness, age or lack of education.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    But it is? What else? Apart from the genetic neurology pre-wired for experience.
  • So
    The uk has people who hold Blatant racist opinions.

    I have some of those people in my family.

    What can I do about it?
    Literally, what?
    (Beyond weep)

    This plague has ripped our extended family apart and to be clear these are not unintelligent people.

  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    edited June 2020
    Everywhere has this. Every family. It's in my first degree of familial separation. Twice. I never confront it. Never discuss it. The only time I would is if there were a victim present. It borders on the pathological to say the least.
  • RussRuss Deckhand, Styx
    Do you mean genuine belief in the intellectual and moral superiority of the white race ? The sort of thing some of us thought had been so convincingly disproven that nobody could take it seriously any more ?

    Or do you mean only the "over here taking our jobs" sort of grumble ?

    Or the continued use of terms which were once used as neutral descriptors but are now considered derogatory ?
  • @Russ , To clarify both the genuine belief thing
    And
    some very blatant crude Not At All neutral descriptors .....of the type that even in my rural out in the sticks 1970s classroom would have ended with a ruler to the hand followed by a trip to the headteacher.


    I guess I m here and nowhere else coz I m all cussed out and sympathy only goes so far.

    Can and do people change from racist identity? I presume that we as a country want this?

    I get the outrage. I really do. On so many counts I get the outrage.

    But is the answer lock em up and throw away the key?

    Or is there another answer?
    & If so, what is it?





  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    So
    The uk has people who hold Blatant racist opinions.

    I have some of those people in my family.

    What can I do about it?
    Literally, what?
    (Beyond weep)

    This plague has ripped our extended family apart and to be clear these are not unintelligent people.
    My gran was racist. I did not directly confronter her about this, because of respect for elders and because she treated individuals as people, regardless of colour. Hoever, I do wish I had spoken to her about it.
    I think countering the racism with reality can help some people. Making it clear you do not share their belief is a start and is something that can be done gently in situations one mightn't feel comfortable being more confrontational. Silence is complicity, but shouting isn't necessarily productive.

  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Silence is not complicity.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Silence is not complicity.

    The fuck it isn't. Silence allows the racists to think that people agree with them.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Well, somewhat, but there is the tumbleweed effect - where someone thinks they’re being funny and gets a total non-response.
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    IF someone tells a joke and gets no response, perhaps they'll think that someone doesn't agree. Perhaps they'll think the person does, but is afraid to show it.
    But if someone makes a plain racist comment, unless they get a negative reaction, they are likely to consider the silence as agreement. They'll almost definitely not consider it as disagreement or resistance.
    It mightn't be comfortable, but it is the truth.
  • I'm going to assume that you love this person (these people), and wish to continue having a familial relationship with them, but they're an out-and-out racist.

    I'm not sure I have great advice, but I'd say something like the following:

    1. If you have kids, it is not OK for racist relatives to use that sort of language or stereotype around your kids. Just tell them straight. If they can't manage that, they don't get to see your kids - end of discussion.

    2. Call them on it. Every time, if you feel strong enough. Just a quiet "that's pretty racist" or whatever helps. Get the rest of your family to call them on it.

    3. Ask them to justify themselves. When they say something negative about $OFFENSIVE_RACIAL_EPITHET, ask them what they have against whatever the normal, respectful name for the group of people identified is. And then explain why they're wrong (because you know they are.) If it helps to point out members of that group that don't conform to $OFFENSIVE_STEREOTYPE, then do so. If they start off thinking that all X are bad, then "he's one of the good ones" is an improvement, even though it's still very racist. But it could be the first step on the path.

    4. Tell them you're open to rational, civil discussion, if they need help understanding things like BLM protests.

    I think people can learn. Nobody is born a racist - racism is something that we learn from our society, and those around us. It follows that people can un-learn racism. It's hard work, retraining instincts you've spent years honing, but it can be done.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Silence is not complicity.

    The fuck it isn't. Silence allows the racists to think that people agree with them.

    Bollocks.
  • I really appreciate all the comments, especially the ones where we reflect on our own place in these situations. It is uncomfortable but maybe that is no bad thing.


    @lilbuddha , I now have rules before some people come over! They break those rules- they leave. So far we are a couple of years in without incident.....which is a massive step forward. But it has taken a long time and a lot of talking.

    We can choose our friends and thank God for that! But family?
    We are stuck with them.
    Or not.
    For some in my family, it is an ask too far to even be in the same room.

    And then the ‘silence is complicity ‘ ( or not) thing. Strong feelings on both sides!

    I suspect the situations thought of , decided the outcome?
    As in , what one might say with our cousins while watching telly is going to differ from our reply when we are a guest at a formal wedding.....



  • Then again , we could get all dogmatic, talk past each other and start throwing words about!

  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    Martin54 wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Silence is not complicity.

    The fuck it isn't. Silence allows the racists to think that people agree with them.

    Bollocks.
    Such impeccable logic, a veritable masterpiece of rhetoric, I must bow before your superior argument. Low you people, take note: the mighty has spoken and we are answered.
  • I'm a racist. Or at least, I think I must be, because I have to take such care talking about people who don't look like me, and using the right words all the time because it still doesn't come naturally from my early environment. In our Infant School - nearly 70 years ago - there was a boy with brown skin who everyone called Golliwog and thought nothing of it. The 'N' word was commonplace in conversation. My step-grandmother talked about 'darkies' but I'm absolutely sure she would never have treated another person differently on account of perceived differences. My father was bothered about Asians 'taking our jobs'. I've worked with people of every imaginable race and have always enjoyed their company unless they were objectionable for reasons that had nothing to do with race. Our extended family is increasingly multiracial. I enjoy cultural humour, like Mordecai Richler's Jewish jokes, and Rikki Fulton's Scottish characters, but racist humour revolts me and turns my gut. But I still must be a racist, because I still need to take care. But perhaps we can evolve, and my idealist self is wondering, when will we reach the point where there is no need to talk about skin colours and physical features at all?
  • lilbuddhalilbuddha Shipmate
    One term I absolutely loathe is "I don't see colour", because it is bullshit.
    We will always will always notice differences. The ideal state is to not overlay negative characteristics on those differences.
  • cgichardcgichard Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    Here's a pleasing anecdote from Fr Moses Berry about a small girl who notices his baldness rather than his skin colour or physical features.
  • I'm a racist. Or at least, I think I must be, because I have to take such care talking about people who don't look like me, and using the right words all the time because it still doesn't come naturally from my early environment. In our Infant School - nearly 70 years ago - there was a boy with brown skin who everyone called Golliwog and thought nothing of it.

    In the high school class ahead of mine was an African-American young man who was very tall, very burly . . . and very black! He was also very popular with his classmates. We all called him Lumumba (after Patrice Lumumba, who was instrumental in gaining independence for the Belgian Congo) and no one thought anything of it.

    That young man was none other than this person.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    I'm a racist. Or at least, I think I must be, because I have to take such care talking about people who don't look like me, and using the right words all the time because it still doesn't come naturally from my early environment. In our Infant School - nearly 70 years ago - there was a boy with brown skin who everyone called Golliwog and thought nothing of it. The 'N' word was commonplace in conversation. My step-grandmother talked about 'darkies' but I'm absolutely sure she would never have treated another person differently on account of perceived differences. My father was bothered about Asians 'taking our jobs'. I've worked with people of every imaginable race and have always enjoyed their company unless they were objectionable for reasons that had nothing to do with race. Our extended family is increasingly multiracial. I enjoy cultural humour, like Mordecai Richler's Jewish jokes, and Rikki Fulton's Scottish characters, but racist humour revolts me and turns my gut. But I still must be a racist, because I still need to take care. But perhaps we can evolve, and my idealist self is wondering, when will we reach the point where there is no need to talk about skin colours and physical features at all?

    I also think I'm a racist. Beating one of my drums, I think all Europeans and their exports have to guard against their own racism. I think that if everyone could look within themselves and their experiences and acknowledge their own racism we would be a very long way towards the ideal Stercus Tauri talks about.

    I come from a long line of racists. Me and my siblings challenge my Mum when she is racist. My sister and I used to challenge my Dad about it too. He was particularly bad at the footy. However, criticism and challenge didn't work on my father. He started calling out racist stuff deliberately to provoke a response from us. He'd look at us and giggle.

    Some of my cousins are racists, as are some of my uncles and aunts. But some are not. One family of cousins had an uncle who worked in the PNG highlands and they did alot of work raising funds for the missions. They would go up there for holidays, and one of my cousins fell in love with a girl up there. They married and now live on New Britain, an island off the coast of PNG. They have many children. He is a carpenter, and has turned himself into a builder of boats.

    My best friend's brother has started posting some really nasty racist stuff on facebook. He seems to be a fan of Anne Marie Waters and the political party For Britain. I don't respond.

    Some of my work colleagues are racist. I have exchanged views with them and we agree to disagree.

  • lilbuddha wrote: »
    Ethne Alba wrote: »
    So
    The uk has people who hold Blatant racist opinions.

    I have some of those people in my family.

    What can I do about it?
    Literally, what?
    (Beyond weep)

    This plague has ripped our extended family apart and to be clear these are not unintelligent people.
    My gran was racist. I did not directly confronter her about this, because of respect for elders and because she treated individuals as people, regardless of colour. Hoever, I do wish I had spoken to her about it.
    I think countering the racism with reality can help some people. Making it clear you do not share their belief is a start and is something that can be done gently in situations one mightn't feel comfortable being more confrontational. Silence is complicity, but shouting isn't necessarily productive.
    Age nor position, status or social situation confers no immunity in my book. All are confronted. Publicly.

    If we allow any breaks for anything we simply collude in the abuse. Family member or not, old or young, they come quickly to understand the fact I believe their attitude/behaviour to be wrong.

  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    lilbuddha wrote: »
    Martin54 wrote: »
    Silence is not complicity.

    The fuck it isn't. Silence allows the racists to think that people agree with them.

    Bollocks.
    Such impeccable logic, a veritable masterpiece of rhetoric, I must bow before your superior argument. Low you people, take note: the mighty has spoken and we are answered.

    I was merely countering your empty assertion.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    If silence will generally be interpreted as disagreement it may be a good option, but too often it is read as agreement, or at least neutrality. And as Desmond Tutu has said
    If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
    (Source)
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Couldn't agree more, especially in public space, it becomes a duty if not to speak out but to stand with the persecuted and comfort them with words where possible.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    re: keeping quiet. If the acceptable way to avoid conflict is to keep quiet then this convention needs to be followed by all, and those who feel the need to come out with racist BS also need to shut the f*** up.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    All fine rhetoric which none of us are hardly ever called upon to step up to.
  • My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.

    BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?
  • Forthview wrote: »
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?

    I suppose what you have to ask yourself is: if a Chinese acquaintance was in earshot would you feel comfortable using that kind of language (obviously this only works for those who have a sense of embarrassment when it comes to racism but I'm reasonably sure that includes most folk here)?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    Forthview wrote: »
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?

    Consider that "Italian" corresponds with "Chinese". "Chinky" corresponds with "Wop" or, at best, "Eyetie".
  • My step-children, not just racist but exhibit casual anti-semitism. Fortunately I don't see them often but my children do and find references to "chi*nks" enraging, and they're concerned that these attitudes seem to be picked up by their niece. I gather that the last time it happened they issued an ultimatum that the offensive comments stopped or they'd leave, which prompted the excuse it was only "banter". Infuriating, enraging and dreadful. Reminders that we have Brit-Chinese family were ignored.

    BTW they consider us right-wing, they're Corbyn supporting members of the LP, so it isn't a clear-cut political thing.

    Knowing your very broad definition of anti-semitism, I think it's necessary to ask what this "casual anti-semitism" consists of.

    As to the BTW, they're not wrong at least so far as I can see from your posts on the ship.
  • Martin54Martin54 Deckhand, Styx
    Forthview wrote: »
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?

    The first term is and always was adjectival of a racist slur, applied to eyes. The fact that it was used 'innocently' is no longer an excuse. Neither is it in the same category, nor never was, as the latter two separate categories. Do you need any more painful elaboration of the obvious?

    As an adolescent I was sickeningly, criminally racist. I can't believe I was that person. During that time I brainwashed myself in to a racist cult. That was progress...
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    Thank you for sharing your views. Be assured, if you wish, that I would never use the term 'chinky' myself. However when I heard people using the term I got the impression that it was a term of endearment. I did not know that 'chinky' was a racial slur applied to the eyes.
    Now I would ask would the people who used the word 'chinky' have been better not to patronise the Chinese takeaway. .For the people I was talking about the 'chinky' meal was a treat which they obviously looked forward to.
  • For some people, matters are clear cut and absolute. You know where that line is, you call stuff out and Everyone around you knows where they stand and what not to do.

    God bless your certainty .
    I also sincerely hope that your extended family are able to enjoy those life events and social gatherings that make for extended family life.
    Some of us lesser mortals struggle with these situations.

    So an “I don’t respond to their face book messages” is a helpful starting point. That might seem obvious to some folk, not so to others.

    For some, there is an expectation that family members (in our increasingly scattered way of life) keep in touch via social media.

    It seems to me.... that way is fraught with chaos.
    Or is it only me????

  • @Stercus Tauri and @Simon Toad I appreciate your reflections.

    For if .... as families and as individuals ....we cannot reflect soberly on our own family experiences and try to work out how to change our own families....... how is our society meant to?

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Forthview wrote: »
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?

    I suppose what you have to ask yourself is: if a Chinese acquaintance was in earshot would you feel comfortable using that kind of language (obviously this only works for those who have a sense of embarrassment when it comes to racism but I'm reasonably sure that includes most folk here)?
    Knowing several Chinese people (as in, people who are citizens of the Peoples Republic of China - we're a university linked research group, so a large proportion of our students are Chinese long with a variety of visiting scientists) their first response would be "you're talking about a meal that's a westernised amalgam of selected dishes from several different regions of China, and some places outside China, please don't equate that food with what my mother cooks".

    Which brings up the question of the extent to which our cultures appropriate selected items from other cultures and attach national or ethnic labels to them. In food, we have in addition to 'Chinese', 'Indian' (often derived from dishes originating in Pakistan, Bangladesh and other places outside India), 'Italian' and don't get me started on what passes for sushi in many 'Japanese' restaurants. Is taking someone else's culture, mucking it around and serving it up as something that it isn't racist in it's own right?
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    This depends to some extent on who is doing the mucking around. Most Chinese restaurants ,for example, are run by people who have or have had some connection with China. The way of preparing and serving food may well be changed to suit the conditions and expectations of the host country. A Chinese restaurant in France will usually be something different to a Chinese restaurant in the UK. Macdonald's (of big Mac fame) adapt their menus and ways of serving to the different host countries in which they find themselves, even although there may be an impression of having something American to eat.
  • Simon ToadSimon Toad Shipmate
    edited June 2020
    Forthview wrote: »
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?

    I suppose what you have to ask yourself is: if a Chinese acquaintance was in earshot would you feel comfortable using that kind of language (obviously this only works for those who have a sense of embarrassment when it comes to racism but I'm reasonably sure that includes most folk here)?
    Knowing several Chinese people (as in, people who are citizens of the Peoples Republic of China - we're a university linked research group, so a large proportion of our students are Chinese long with a variety of visiting scientists) their first response would be "you're talking about a meal that's a westernised amalgam of selected dishes from several different regions of China, and some places outside China, please don't equate that food with what my mother cooks".

    Which brings up the question of the extent to which our cultures appropriate selected items from other cultures and attach national or ethnic labels to them. In food, we have in addition to 'Chinese', 'Indian' (often derived from dishes originating in Pakistan, Bangladesh and other places outside India), 'Italian' and don't get me started on what passes for sushi in many 'Japanese' restaurants. Is taking someone else's culture, mucking it around and serving it up as something that it isn't racist in it's own right?

    Given that I am dealing with overtly racist sentiments and opinions expressed by my parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, workmates, and relatives of friends, can I forget about going and finding things that are possibly racist because they amount to cultural appropriation?

    Sorry Alan. But really, mate. Let's get to point A before we have a go at point F or G.

    Oh God, I just remembered my conservative American family.
  • c52c52 Shipmate Posts: 48
    I'm unaware of any racism in me and I suspect I am blind to many failings there. At first I was going to write that there's an Indian in our church home group and I don't remotely think of her as foreign. In fact there are three Indians and a Nigerian so maybe I genuinely don't notice.

    On the other hand I have massive difficulties with people who speak differently. That may boil down to 'I can't be bothered to make the effort to understand you' (includes Glaswegians as well as let's say Indians) but also include 'if you are a 2nd/3rd generation immigrant and have decided not to sound like an ordinary English person, then you are excluding yourself and I will honour your choice'.

    And culture + religion is an even bigger minefield. I once quoted a teaching from the Koran that doesn't accord with liberal western 21stC values and I was told I was a racist and worse.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    Simon Toad wrote: »
    Forthview wrote: »
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?

    I suppose what you have to ask yourself is: if a Chinese acquaintance was in earshot would you feel comfortable using that kind of language (obviously this only works for those who have a sense of embarrassment when it comes to racism but I'm reasonably sure that includes most folk here)?
    Knowing several Chinese people (as in, people who are citizens of the Peoples Republic of China - we're a university linked research group, so a large proportion of our students are Chinese long with a variety of visiting scientists) their first response would be "you're talking about a meal that's a westernised amalgam of selected dishes from several different regions of China, and some places outside China, please don't equate that food with what my mother cooks".

    Which brings up the question of the extent to which our cultures appropriate selected items from other cultures and attach national or ethnic labels to them. In food, we have in addition to 'Chinese', 'Indian' (often derived from dishes originating in Pakistan, Bangladesh and other places outside India), 'Italian' and don't get me started on what passes for sushi in many 'Japanese' restaurants. Is taking someone else's culture, mucking it around and serving it up as something that it isn't racist in it's own right?

    Given that I am dealing with overtly racist sentiments and opinions expressed by my parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, workmates, and relatives of friends, can I forget about going and finding things that are possibly racist because they amount to cultural appropriation?

    Sorry Alan. But really, mate. Let's get to point A before we have a go at point F or G.

    Oh God, I just remembered my conservative American family.
    Sometimes it's important to remember that we're all on a journey from extreme racism through milder forms of racism ... and maybe one day we'll reach"not racist at all". We're not Pharisees declaring "thank you God I'm not a racist like my uncle who calls all east Asians 'chinks'" but travellers on the same road urging ourselves forward even as we try and encourage others to catch up.

    It can be an important message to those at points A and B to be seen tackling points F and G. Asking "shall we get dinner from the Cantonese style or Vietnamese style restaurant?" may be a witness to someone who calls them all "chinks" that you respect the differences between these communities.
  • @Leorning Cniht your comments up thread give me hope, thank you!

    And yes, the people concerned I do wish to have a relationship with, but to be clear were they not family there would be no point.

    No point because they Do understand what they do. There is zero excuse.

    Sigh,
    “ usual rules apply: no politics, no racism , no homophobia, you know the score”
    Literally has to be laid down.

    I love these people, they are my family but by heck I m almost out of hope

  • Forthview wrote: »
    Even just a few years ago I would regularly hear people who rarely would go to restaurants
    talk about having a 'chinky'. This would mean a takeaway meal from a Chinese restaurant.
    I know that this meant that they were familiar with this type of restaurant and rather liked it and certainly felt comfortable with it. Is it however racist ?
    If it is racist what is the difference in mentioning 'Italian' icecream ?
    If it is racist would it be okay to say that one had gone for a 'Chinese' ?

    I suppose what you have to ask yourself is: if a Chinese acquaintance was in earshot would you feel comfortable using that kind of language (obviously this only works for those who have a sense of embarrassment when it comes to racism but I'm reasonably sure that includes most folk here)?
    Knowing several Chinese people (as in, people who are citizens of the Peoples Republic of China - we're a university linked research group, so a large proportion of our students are Chinese long with a variety of visiting scientists) their first response would be "you're talking about a meal that's a westernised amalgam of selected dishes from several different regions of China, and some places outside China, please don't equate that food with what my mother cooks".

    Which brings up the question of the extent to which our cultures appropriate selected items from other cultures and attach national or ethnic labels to them. In food, we have in addition to 'Chinese', 'Indian' (often derived from dishes originating in Pakistan, Bangladesh and other places outside India), 'Italian' and don't get me started on what passes for sushi in many 'Japanese' restaurants. Is taking someone else's culture, mucking it around and serving it up as something that it isn't racist in it's own right?

    That's a bit of an unfair distinction as most of the dishes (and some of the restaurants) date from before partition.

    Maybe we need to come up with a suitable term for distinct cuisines that are inspired by the food in a particular country or region but have evolved substantially from it. Shame Indo-European already means something different ;) .
  • Identifying myself clearly as being in the Very messy middle of point A right now!
    &
    @Alan Cresswell s well made point about how I refer to a take away is helpful.

    I can just imagine that there might be rolling of eyes at that. But please, we do not all live in the land called certainty .

    As a society we Have to change.
    Those changes affect us in our family......and friendships too. There has to be space for people to tentatively try out new ways, ask questions , check that wording is right , check in and seek reflections on our own attitudes.

    So a ffs automatic reaction is not at all helpful to us lesser mortals, who have Not managed to know all things and seemlessly transition into paragons of virtue.

    Who else here ( however long ago it was, before your currently enlightened status) has attended a diversity training event and been shocked to discover that all is not well in our own internal world....????
  • Ethne Alba wrote: »
    Who else here ( however long ago it was, before your currently enlightened status) has attended a diversity training event and been shocked to discover that all is not well in our own internal world....????

    I've actually had very little by way of diversity training.
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    Well, I recently went to a workshop on the Roma experience re safeguarding processes and realised how little I knew about their heritage and history.

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