Keryg 2021: Other boats? Mark 4

Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
edited January 2024 in Limbo
35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”

39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

40 He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

41 They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”

What do you make of this sentence? In all my years of reading this story, even preaching on it, I overlooked it. Someone else pointed it out to me last Sunday. Baffled.

I wonder what happened to the other boats when the storm came up--had they already turned back? Why did they disappear?

Comments

  • These sudden squalls were and are (AIUI) quite common on the Sea of Galilee.

    I read somewhere that the fishing boats - usually around 27 feet long - had a crew of four (presumably needing space for nets, tackle, and the catch!), so maybe the other boats had made better time across the lake before the squall struck.

    IOW, it may be that the boat Jesus was in was somewhat overcrowded, lower in the water than it would usually be, and perhaps therefore rather slower.

    I'm speculating, of course.
  • To me it's just one of those details which add verisimilitude to the story.

    I certainly wouldn't attempt to "spiritualise" it.
  • I wouldn’t spiritualize it either. But this being Mark, who’s not exactly known for unnecessary details, I’m not sure I’d assume it’s just there to add verisimilitude to the story. In general, it seems to me that if Mark puts a detail in, he has it there for a reason.

    I have no idea what that reason might be in this case, though.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    These sudden squalls were and are (AIUI) quite common on the Sea of Galilee.

    I read somewhere that the fishing boats - usually around 27 feet long - had a crew of four (presumably needing space for nets, tackle, and the catch!), so maybe the other boats had made better time across the lake before the squall struck.

    IOW, it may be that the boat Jesus was in was somewhat overcrowded, lower in the water than it would usually be, and perhaps therefore rather slower.

    I'm speculating, of course.

    You might have something here. 13 people in one boat would have been dangerous. Therefore it is likely it took three or four boats for them to all get together on the other side.
  • Sorry, I wasn't very clear - the term *the disciples* can, AIUI, also include other followers in addition to the 12 who formed the *inner circle*.

    My thought was that they - the 12 - were with Jesus in one rather overladen boat, which means that the *other boats* may have carried the rest of the party across the lake, perhaps more swiftly.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    edited June 2021
    I was going to post how it often seems to be 2/3+fish in each boat.
    However there are 5 fishing in the boat at the end of John and the other verses don't back me up.

    Most of the story works with a small convoy, the only issue being the singular boat in v 37
    If the other boats were a little lighter then they could have been less swamped while still being there and scared. And when Jesus gets out, but if we are arguing from omission the entire disciples disappear (and Jesus was only in one boat)

    The general crossing the lake pattern occurs several times, in mark 3 it is a little boat (Niv translation)
    This first crossing in 5 we have boats. The return journey we have just a boat and just Jesus mentioned.
    In mark 6 the disciples are in the boat. In mark 8 he gets into a boat with his disciples and a loaf.

    Matthew, we have Peter and Andrew fishing (in a boat?) And James, John and Zebedee in a boat.

    In the half corresponding passage to this one (interestingly Matthew and Mark seem slightly out of sync):
    he gives orders to prepare to cross (from peters house? Rejects some travellers. Then he gets into The boat (which hasn't yet been mentioned explicitly)
    His return journey is just in A boat.

    Later on he gets into a boat and the events Mark records occur but they just moves on.


    Luke they get into a boat 'one day' following the events described in mark and the other trips seem to be undescribed.

    Interestingly while there are subtle variations in the events preceding. The journey in every case is tied to Legion.

  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    I preached on this last week. I think there are two possibilities. One is that it took several boats to ferry the group of disciples across the lake. the second is that Jesus was seeking some down time after preaching to the crowds, but some of the crowd decided they would also follow Him across the lake.

    In relation to the storm, to all intents and purposes those in the boat with Jesus were on their own. In the night, with the storm whipping up the waves there could have been another boat nearby, and a) no one would know it and b) even if they knew where other boats were there wouldn't be much they could do to help - a collision between two of the boats would be very likely if they tried to get close to each other, and would be almost certain to sink at least one of the boats. It takes a very special type of boat crew to be able to get alongside another boat in a storm to render aid, and there was no RNLI on that sea.
  • TelfordTelford Shipmate
    edited June 2021
    I cannot find anywhere where it says that the boat was overcrowded. Jesus could, of course, have prevented the storm in the first place. Perhaps he wanted to put on a demonstration.
  • Yes, the other boats might well have had some of the crowd, though I rather incline to the idea that there were more *followers* than just the 12.

    Handling an open boat in a severe squall would certainly be a hard job, especially if (as I suspect) it was rather overloaded...
  • Circuit RiderCircuit Rider Shipmate Posts: 6
    edited July 2021
    I think Jesus deliberately led the disciples into the worst storm of their lives to scare the hell out of them. Remember, these fishers had sailed that lake all their lives, and they had no doubt survived countless fierce storms. This one was beyond their experience, and they were terrified.

    When Jesus calmed the storm he rebuked them for their lack of faith despite the miracles they had witnessed and experienced in the previous days. It was all to teach them to trust him.

    As for the question of the OP, it makes sense that there would be more than one boat. We know that James and John had a boat, and Peter and Andrew had a boat. As BF points out, the small boats would accommodate only a few, so more than one boat would be needed to transport them all.

    *Edited to clarify the last sentence.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I am not going to blame Jesus for leading the disciples into the worst storm of their lives.

    I note, though, that Jesus got into the boat to go across the sea (of Gallilee) to go across to the other side. Usually, the fishing boats stayed close to the shoreline because of the threats of major storms. I don't think they were designed to go trans Galilee as it were.
  • Lamb ChoppedLamb Chopped Shipmate
    edited July 2021
    I'm not sure why the thread seems agreed on the idea that all the boats were small. It seems to me likely that there were a variety of boat sizes on Galilee, and that the disciples may have taken one of the larger ones. After all, if you are into fishing in a big way (and Zebedee & Sons appears to have been fairly large, if the two guys could leave Dad with the servants and walk off unconcerned), you need a boat big enough to handle a netful of fish plus the guys to pull it in--or if you plan to drag it back to shore, you've got to have the manpower both to secure the net to the boat and to row back dragging it.

    Whatever you think of that idea, it seems clear that Jesus was in the habit of crossing the lake on a fairly casual basis. I mean, there are several occasions where he does the trip across, then back again in what? 24 hours? and nobody makes a big deal of it. Get thrown out of the Gerasenes? no biggie, got boat, will travel back--immediately. And he does.

    Given that at least four of the disciples and likely more had ties to the fishing industry, this was probably a pretty standard mode of travel for them. They were experienced (and I'm sure they had been in many squalls before, though this particular one was over expectations); they had family access to boats when needed, even to serve as a pulpit; they were apparently able to withdraw at least one boat from the service of the family business(es) to their own use without crippling those who normally used it.

    I do NOT think that there were only two boats between the disciples, a la "James and John had a boat, and Peter and Andrew had a boat," because that implies that the disciples were leaving valuable boats to lie unused while they were on the road in Judea etc. (which is unlikely unless they were very rich), OR that they were regularly depriving the usual fishermen of their boat in order to ferry Jesus around. I don't see that. Much more likely that the family business(es) had several boats of different sizes, could spare at least one at any given time, and kept them in service while the disciples were elsewhere. Multiple boats also means you can have one being worked on (scraped, painted, repaired) while the others are out, which is good business sense if you can afford it--and I think they could.

  • MarthaMartha Shipmate
    I would also assume there would be pretty regular ferry services across the lake - either formal or informal. So the disciples may well have had family boats, but they could probably wander down to the quay and see who was going over to the Gerasenes today, and did they have space for passengers. Or hire boats for the day.
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    At the same time its also a tenth of the size of lake eerie and slightly smaller than lake tahoe. In UK terms about the same size as Lough Neagh (or about 10 Windermere or 15 Rutlands).
    Which is big, I wouldn't like to be stuck in the middle.
    But at the same time there's probably a limit on commercially viable boat types.
  • This Wikipedia article about the 1stC boat found on the shore of the lake (in 1986) may be of interest:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Galilee_Boat
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    That boat is similar in size to many more modern boats used as dinghies for larger ships or life boats - for example that boat is 8.3x2.3m and the lifeboats on the Titanic were only slightly larger at 9.1x2.8m and designed to take 65 people. Whether that boat is typical for the period, or exceptionally large is difficult to say.
  • MooMoo Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    jay_emm wrote: »
    At the same time its also a tenth of the size of lake eerie and slightly smaller than lake tahoe. In UK terms about the same size as Lough Neagh (or about 10 Windermere or 15 Rutlands).
    Which is big, I wouldn't like to be stuck in the middle.

    It's just about the same size as Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire.

  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I would caution about projecting what we think they may have and stick with the story as much as possible. Other than maybe the Wikipedia article all we do know is that the disciples were fishermen who had rather small boats. Moreover, there is no indication that there was an established ferry service on Gallilee.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    edited July 2021
    I would say that from the text
    all we do know is that the disciples were fishermen who had rather small boats.
    .
    Archaeology allows us to make some other suppositions e.g. about the size of the boats, although I think there is only one Galilean boat from that time for which we have direct archaeological evidence.

    Matthew 8.23 on the face of it can be read as indicating a boat able to carry at least thirteen people, and Matthew 14.22 suggests at least twelve in a boat. Mark 6.12 again suggests a boat carrying at least thirteen.

    I could go on, but I haven’t got the patience to make the links on the phone. Suffice it to say, there is consistent evidence in the Gospels of the use of boats which normally and reasonably accommodate twelve or thirteen persons.

    “Rather small” then is a matter of what we use to compare it with.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    We also have evidence of people like James & John - brothers working with others for their father. It's not improbable that the fishing business continues when they leave to follow Jesus. If that's a boat with 4-6 people the loss of 2 of them would probably make it impossible to handle the boat and catch fish effectively, if it was a larger boat of 10-12 people then 2 less wouldn't make much difference. The impression of the narrative is that the group tending the boat and nets was relatively large. There could, of course, be the option of hiring a couple of additional hands though which could reduce the strength of that argument.
  • PendragonPendragon Shipmate
    I don't know how big a catch those boats would expect when fishing, but I would have thought that the load space required for full nets would quite easily take some extra disciples. I measured the length of the Galilee one out for Junior church the other week, and it's actually quite a substantial size.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I wouldn’t spiritualize it either. But this being Mark, who’s not exactly known for unnecessary details, I’m not sure I’d assume it’s just there to add verisimilitude to the story. In general, it seems to me that if Mark puts a detail in, he has it there for a reason.

    I have no idea what that reason might be in this case, though.
    Although Mark is usually terser than the other gospels, I've noticed other instances where he includes odd incidental and unnecessary facts which read like the memory of someone who was there. Mark's account of the feeding of the 5,000 is the only one which mentions that Jesus made the crowd sit down on the green grass.

    There's a tradition that Mark wrote down St Peter's version of the gospel stories. The most widespread assumption these days is that Mark's gospel was written first and that Matthew and Luke had access to it. So it's just as plausible that as well as adding, they trimmed out incidentals that they didn't think were necessary.

    There's also no mention of the cushion or where in the boat Jesus was in the other two accounts.

    They don't add to the meaning of the story. Unless one has an unusually literal view on the nature and significance of scriptural authority, there doesn't have to be a reason to suppose there's anything significant about the other boats at all, beyond perhaps the persuasive possibility that we are dealing with an account that derives from an eye witness.

  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Enoch wrote: »
    <snip>Although Mark is usually terser than the other gospels <snip>

    IIRC it’s a bit more complicated than that in that his description of specific incidents he is often fuller/more detailed than he other Gospel writers.
  • Alan Cresswell Alan Cresswell Admin, 8th Day Host
    This thread might have influenced the fact that I noticed this in the Gospel reading this morning. Last week the reading had concluded with Jesus' disciples taking the boat away and then Jesus joining them by walking on the water. John 6:22-24 "The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realised that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten after the Lord had given thanks. Once the crowd realised that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus".

    Clearly on this occasion a single boat was sufficiently large to take Jesus and all his disciples (conceivably more than just the twelve). And, however many boats from Tiberias were capable of taking a significant portion of the crowd (who, remember had the previous day numbered 5000 men). These don't sound like very small boats.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited August 2021
    Enoch wrote: »
    Unless one has an unusually literal view on the nature and significance of scriptural authority, there doesn't have to be a reason to suppose there's anything significant about the other boats at all, beyond perhaps the persuasive possibility that we are dealing with an account that derives from an eye witness.
    On a parallel subject, does there have to be any "meaning" to the twelve baskets of fragments collected up after the Feeding of the 5000, except to show the abundance of the miracle? Perhaps each disciple took home a basket (and where did they come from, anyway) for next day's lunch! Equally, in the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, does there have to be any significance i the mentioning of the watchtower etc, except to add verisimilitude to the scene?

  • tclunetclune Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    Unless one has an unusually literal view on the nature and significance of scriptural authority, there doesn't have to be a reason to suppose there's anything significant about the other boats at all, beyond perhaps the persuasive possibility that we are dealing with an account that derives from an eye witness.
    On a parallel subject, does there have to be any "meaning" to the twelve baskets of fragments collected up after the Feeding of the 5000, except to show the abundance of the miracle? Perhaps each disciple took home a basket (and where did they come from, anyway) for next day's lunch! Equally, in the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, does there have to be any significance i the mentioning of the watchtower etc, except to add verisimilitude to the scene?

    ISTM that there is very little in scripture that must be interpreted in a particular way. We meditate on a passage and find meaning for our lives in some aspects of that passage. To my mind, that is pretty close to what it means for the Lord to speak to us through scripture.
  • This.
  • Yes.
  • On a parallel subject, does there have to be any "meaning" to the twelve baskets of fragments collected up after the Feeding of the 5000, except to show the abundance of the miracle?
    Twelve may well signify Israel. The fragments could be the crumbs for the Syrophoenician woman. The seven baskets of the feeding of the crowd of four thousand on gentile territory is the number representing the gentile nations.
    Mark has Jesus saying that the disciples should have understood the meaning of the 12 and the 7 basket fragments. (70/72 are numbers representing the gentile nations in Luke where Jesus has 70/72 apostles to the gentiles.) So it does not seem that the writer of Mark regards them as unimportant details.
  • I've heard it preached on in a kind of 'other sheep which are not of this sheepfold', kind of way ... or a 'fellow travellers' kind of way - they might not be in your particular boat but are heading in the same direction.

    Both strike me as unnecessarily spiritualised readings.
  • Assuming that James and John had inherited their father's spring, I always felt that they must have been a liability on a wooden fishing boat. There would, surely, have been times when, in their bouncy enthusiasm, they corkscrewed themselves through the hull.
  • 😂😂😂
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