Oh, that verse in All Things Bright and Beautiful about the rich and poor men is in a few hymn books, I remember it in school hymn books, and it's definitely in the Hymns Ancient and Modern at the back of my BCP, all 7 verses, as is given in the Wikipedia article (link) discussing the history. That article says that Percy Dearmer omitted it from the 1906 English Hymnal. It also repeats verse 4 as verses 4 & 5 to get to 8 verses in total.
[edited to add the name of the hymn and reference to the verse being about rich and poor men as at the top of a new page]
On the whole, I think I must also have been brought up with Monk's tune, but (of the two) I prefer Royal Oak.
Apart from anything else, it's a Good Old Traditional English Melody...and has some nice twiddly bits...
I'm the same, having just reminded myself of both with the help of YouTube. I was startled, however, to hear one of the renditions include the verse about "The rich man in his castle" which we certainly never sang at school and I don't remember seeing included in any hymn book.
That truly is a dreadful verse and has no place in a hymn, or Christmas carol.
On the whole, I think I must also have been brought up with Monk's tune, but (of the two) I prefer Royal Oak.
Apart from anything else, it's a Good Old Traditional English Melody...and has some nice twiddly bits...
I'm the same, having just reminded myself of both with the help of YouTube. I was startled, however, to hear one of the renditions include the verse about "The rich man in his castle" which we certainly never sang at school and I don't remember seeing included in any hymn book.
That truly is a dreadful verse and has no place in a hymn, or Christmas carol.
I agree - I wonder if the sainted Mrs Alexander had a vague picture of the parable of Dives and Lazarus in her mind when she wrote those execrable words?
Also, unusually, the Psalm of the Lucernarium was in tone 1, which is usually reserved for Holy Week. However, it is very lovely.
Beautiful, @Cyprian, thanks for the links. Happy to see you in your new home!
You're kind.
And thank you for your encouraging words. It's presented us with a few more challenges but nothing insurmountable, and overall it's a very good step in the life of our little community.
Yes @Cyprian - a beautiful, and quite austere, worship space. Will you be adding more Liturgical Items™ as time goes on?
Harking back to Dives and Lazarus, it occurred to me that the folk song tune, a traditional English melody* known as Kingsfold, is often used for the hymn I heard the voice of Jesus say...
That hymn IMHO is much better suited to a Christian funeral than ATBAB.
*I thought the tune was one of those harmonised/adapted by Ralph Vaughan Williams, but my hymnbook is silent on that point.
(See how I got the thread back on track? Neat, eh? )
My copy of CH4 lists Vaughan Williams as the arranger of the version taken from The English Hymnal. It also has another arrangement aimed at guitar or less skilled pianist. CH4 includes Kingsfold for When out of poverty is born but sets I heard the voice of Jesus say to ROWAN TREE, which if anything makes it even more suitable for a funeral.
My copy of CH4 lists Vaughan Williams as the arranger of the version taken from The English Hymnal. It also has another arrangement aimed at guitar or less skilled pianist. CH4 includes Kingsfold for When out of poverty is born but sets I heard the voice of Jesus say to ROWAN TREE, which if anything makes it even more suitable for a funeral.
Ah - thank you! I thought RVW had something to do with it...but I don't have a music copy of the English Hymnal to hand.
Yes @Cyprian - a beautiful, and quite austere, worship space. Will you be adding more Liturgical Items™ as time goes on?
There isn't much more to add, to be honest. Since that initial video, we have acquired candlesticks for servers. They will sit on the outside of the icons of the Saviour and the Mother of God. When we eventually have a priest, there will also need to be an Oblations Table, where the Gifts will be prepared, but that's about it.
The space is used by other groups for other purposes, (mainly a children's playgroup), so everything must be set up for worship and put away once we've finished. The portable altar with folding legs was made for us, while the icon stands are in fact folding music stands with covers made specially for them in various colours.
They and everything else we use - the icons and lights in all of the windowsills, the books, music, incense, charcoal, censer & stand, and everything else - all has to be brought down from the upstairs storage space we have on the premises, and the seating has to be arranged.
Yes @Cyprian - a beautiful, and quite austere, worship space. Will you be adding more Liturgical Items™ as time goes on?
Harking back to Dives and Lazarus, it occurred to me that the folk song tune, a traditional English melody* known as Kingsfold, is often used for the hymn I heard the voice of Jesus say...
That hymn IMHO is much better suited to a Christian funeral than ATBAB.
*I thought the tune was one of those harmonised/adapted by Ralph Vaughan Williams, but my hymnbook is silent on that point.
(See how I got the thread back on track? Neat, eh? )
*tangent alert.
I heard that parable preached on recently, when the minister pronounced Dives to rhyme with hives.
To my ears that's hardly worse than 'dive-eez', since when the name was coined it would have been 'dee-βehss', where β is a bilabial voiced fricative.
The former is simply the anglicized pronunciation a la KJV Self-Pronouncing Bible. We say Jeremiah rather than Yeremeeyahoo, so why not Dye-veez instead of Dee-vehss?
*tangent alert.
I heard that parable preached on recently, when the minister pronounced Dives to rhyme with hives.
Additional tangent ... one Palm Sunday recently the one who was reading the narration in the Passion repeatedly pronounced Pilate as Pilartay. She was fairly advanced in years so must have heard it zillions of times.
Additional tangent ... one Palm Sunday recently the one who was reading the narration in the Passion repeatedly pronounced Pilate as Pilartay. She was fairly advanced in years so must have heard it zillions of times.
She probably was thinking of Pilates, the exercise regime, which is pronounced like that. (assuming one has a non-rhotic accent ... and the stress is on the middle syllable)
Additional tangent ... one Palm Sunday recently the one who was reading the narration in the Passion repeatedly pronounced Pilate as Pilartay. She was fairly advanced in years so must have heard it zillions of times.
She probably was thinking of Pilates, the exercise regime, which is pronounced like that. (assuming one has a non-rhotic accent ... and the stress is on the middle syllable)
I had fits of laughter during the reading of the lesson when the reader said' Pontius Pilates" and had visions of Pilate taking part in vigorous exercise.
We were on holiday in Jersey last week and worshipped at the small URC church there.
How nice to have a real, live and very competent keyboard player to lead our singing (at Our Place all the music is recorded or 'mechanical') - and what a treat to sing lustily and without masks (first time since March 2020 and we still have them her in Wales).
I had fits of laughter during the reading of the lesson when the reader said' Pontius Pilates" and had visions of Pilate taking part in vigorous exercise.
Well, PP was surely exercised by the dream his wife had had the night before.
During https://www.caringforlife.co.uk/ Supporters Day at Crag House Farm this afternoon:
Faithful One
Everlasting God (Strength will rise)
Before the throne of God above
In Christ Alone
Morning has broken
In Christ there is no East or West
God is surely coming (I think that was the title, it went to Land of Hope and Glory)
May the mind of Christ my Saviour
Go, tell it on the mountain.
We had:
Praise the Lord, you heavens adore him (SUSSEX, after deliberation)
Give thanks with a grateful heart (GO WEST, or so it seems)
I heard the voice of Jesus say (ROWAN TREE, which is an absolute pain in the bum to find a decent midi file for)
Come and find the quiet centre (LEWIS FOLK MELODY)
O Jesus I have promised (WOLVERCOTE, because none of the other 874 common tunes for it appealed)
It's three syllables in Latin as well, so maybe she was a singer. Or a Roman catholic traditionalist...
Neither .... but heavily into amateur dramatics with a pasted on "posh" accent. Maybe she thought it was classier or maybe she had never heard it read aloud in all her seven decades.
Do not be afraid (bossa nova style) to start.
Instrumental at the offertory.
Unless a grain of wheat at communion.
Guide me O thou great Redeemer at the end with Welsh folks singing it in Welsh!
There is a better version of “Do not be a frog”( as known in partibus infidelium i.e. Oz); check out Christopher Willcocks SJ. Beats the boss nova every time.
First new style All Age service, for Education Sunday.
Come, now is the time to worship
Big family of God ( action song)
For I’m building a people of power
Hosanna, hosanna
Trinity XV and a standard Parish Communion. All masked: most of the choir have returned to duty, and the congregation is singing too.
Setting
The Downside Service Murray Motet
Tantum ergo De Sévérac Hymns
Beyond all mortal praise Marlborough Gate
Thou art the Christ, O Lord Croft's 136th
Praise to the holiest Chorus Angelorum
Jesus, our Master Harwich
Let bells peal forth Woodlands Organ
Fugue sur le thème du Carillon des Heures de la Cathédrale de Soissons Duruflé
We're back in lockdown - or "semi lockdown" now unaffectionately called "Level Two Delta" - but the impact on liturgy is the same. Home you go (unless you spend a PhD-time preparing an Action Plan that may permit a few to gather at two metre distancing for no-singing and Communion-in-One-Kind). But y'all northerners are more used to that than we Aotearoans are - so far.
So I tiptoed into our online Morning Office With Optional Spiritual Communion, hosted by our +* ... i kinda had to because I was the preacher at the same event the week before and it looked a bit bad if I only turn up when I have a role.
... Three hymns chosen by theme more or less but by three different people, invited by the +. I'd zoned right out by the third but the first was something about 10,000 Reasons which sounded a bit Taylor Swift to me but was pleasant enough in a personal ecstasy me and my boyfriend kind of way (actually I kinda liked it but I'm a sucker for sentiment; I even like Taylor Swift). The second was and interpretation of Psalm 139 by someone and it seemed soporific enough to send a bottle of Red Bull to sleep. And as I say I was gone for the third. Because of the second, I guess.
I must be losing my faith. *rolleyes*
*+ and I are pally, despite my learned distrust of (most) +s. I just don't get his taste in goddy song, though we share the same taste in secular music. But that's because if it's not in A & M (or at a push Complete Anglican or Together in Song / With One Voice / Whatever Else it's Badged As** then it's not True hymnody™.
While We Are Waiting, Come/Waiting
I Greet Thee, Who My Sure Redeemer Art/Toulon*
Take Thou Our Minds, Dear Lord/Hall
You Shall Go Out with Joy/The Trees of the Field
* This is one that I’ve come to realize seems to be rarely encountered, at least in the Anglosphere, outside Reformed/Presbyterian churches and Reformed/Presbyterian hymnals, though I have come across recordings on YouTube, like this one, that seem to come from sources without obvious Reformed/Presbyterian connection. (Although perhaps a name like “Sovereign Grace Music” does indeed suggest some sort of connection.)
It seems rather a shame to me that it’s not more widely known, as I think it’s a really great hymn. (And I’m disappointed that the recording to which I linked omits the fourth verse.) Traditionally, it has been attributed to John Calvin. Whether he actually wrote it or not—and some authorities think it’s a Protestant adaption of the Salve Regina—it appeared in the 1545 Strasbourg Psalter (as Je te salue, mon certain Redempteur). I wish it was more widely known.
I like 10 000 reasons. I find the first verse very helpful when life is stressful and I often sing it to myself before I start work, like a prayer, and the third verse reminds me that my time on earth is only temporary and that one day I will be united with Christ. It is a very comforting song when you have a troubled mind and need God’s help to get you through the day.
@Nick Tamen there is more than one version of Go tell it on the Mountain, and your comment reminded me that the most common US version has a Christmas theme, and the words at the end of the refrain are “that Jesus Christ is born” or something like that. The version we sang uses the words “Jesus Christ is Lord” and does not reference Christmas, though there are Easter-themed lyrics in a couple of the verses.
@Nick Tamen Your tune "Toulon" is a direct copy of something called the Old 124th from the Genevan Psalter as can be heard here. The words I associate with it are Turn back, O man, forswear thy foolish ways by Clifford Bax, found here.
I like 10 000 reasons. I find the first verse very helpful when life is stressful and I often sing it to myself before I start work, like a prayer, and the third verse reminds me that my time on earth is only temporary and that one day I will be united with Christ. It is a very comforting song when you have a troubled mind and need God’s help to get you through the day.
*tangent alert.
I heard that parable preached on recently, when the minister pronounced Dives to rhyme with hives.
To my ears that's hardly worse than 'dive-eez', since when the name was coined it would have been 'dee-βehss', where β is a bilabial voiced fricative.
The former is simply the anglicized pronunciation a la KJV Self-Pronouncing Bible. We say Jeremiah rather than Yeremeeyahoo, so why not Dye-veez instead of Dee-vehss?
Indeed. I just can't see why we'd accept one ahistorical pronunciation but pour scorn on another.
I like 10 000 reasons. I find the first verse very helpful when life is stressful and I often sing it to myself before I start work, like a prayer, and the third verse reminds me that my time on earth is only temporary and that one day I will be united with Christ. It is a very comforting song when you have a troubled mind and need God’s help to get you through the day.
I went to a wedding yesterday at which it was sung.
'Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation" (Praise to the Lord)
"O Sion haste, thy mission high fulfilling.' (Tidings)
"Alleluia! sing to Jesus!" (Hyfradol)
The usual Merbeck/Old Scottish Gloria for the ordinary, and I have no clue what the organ voluntaries were except they both sounded mid-Baroque.
@Nick Tamen Your tune "Toulon" is a direct copy of something called the Old 124th from the Genevan Psalter as can be heard here. The words I associate with it are Turn back, O man, forswear thy foolish ways by Clifford Bax, found here.
Yes, Toulon (also known at one point as Montague) is a modification of Louis Bourgeois’s Genevan 124/Old 124th. For Toulon, the third line of Old 124th is removed, yielding a four- rather than 5-line tune, and there are a few other tweaks to the melody (at the end of the second line) and to the lengths of notes (in the last line). The version now called Toulon appeared in print at least as early as 1848.
“Turn Back, O Man” disappeared from our denominational hymnals some time ago, but when it was in them it was sung to Old 124th. But we still use Old 124th for Psalm 124.
@Nick Tamen Your tune "Toulon" is a direct copy of something called the Old 124th from the Genevan Psalter as can be heard here. The words I associate with it are Turn back, O man, forswear thy foolish ways by Clifford Bax, found here.
Yes, Toulon (also known at one point as Montague) is a modification of Louis Bourgeois’s Genevan 124/Old 124th. For Toulon, the third line of Old 124th is removed, yielding a four- rather than 5-line tune, and there are a few other tweaks to the melody (at the end of the second line) and to the lengths of notes (in the last line). The version now called Toulon appeared in print at least as early as 1848.
“Turn Back, O Man” disappeared from our denominational hymnals some time ago, but when it was in them it was sung to Old 124th. But we still use Old 124th for Psalm 124.
'Turn Back, O man, forswear thy foolish ways" is still to the Old 124th in our hymnal. Toulon appears as the tune for "God of the Prophets, bless the Prophets' sons" which still makes an occasional appearance at ordinations in our neck of the woods. I's always suspected the two were closely related, but did not know how,
I suspect "Turn Back O Man" - which I remember singing at prep school - died alongside "O brother man hold to thy heart thy brother" because the gender exclusive language was all but irredeemable.
I suspect "Turn Back O Man" - which I remember singing at prep school - died alongside "O brother man hold to thy heart thy brother" because the gender exclusive language was all but irredeemable.
Well, yes, but for at least some of us there’s also the fact that we first learned “Turn Back, O Man” not from singing it in church (which I can’t recall ever having done), but from Godspell, complete with vamping à la Mae West.
Likewise, the only version of “We Plow the Fields and Scatter” that I like is the version from Godspell—“All Good Gifts.”
That show had and continues to have a major impact on me and on my faith.
I suspect "Turn Back O Man" - which I remember singing at prep school - died alongside "O brother man hold to thy heart thy brother" because the gender exclusive language was all but irredeemable.
Well, yes, but for at least some of us there’s also the fact that we first learned “Turn Back, O Man” not from singing it in church (which I can’t recall ever having done), but from Godspell, complete with vamping à la Mae West.
Indeed. That's the first version of it that springs to my mind. Not so much with "We Plough The Fields and Scatter", although the title of that always reminds me of a line in a classic comedy series in the UK (not sure how far outside the UK it's known) called "Porridge" about prison inmates, starring Ronnie Barker. The title of that hymn was cited as being appropriate for prisoners who were let out into the community for farm work.
Comments
[edited to add the name of the hymn and reference to the verse being about rich and poor men as at the top of a new page]
That truly is a dreadful verse and has no place in a hymn, or Christmas carol.
I agree - I wonder if the sainted Mrs Alexander had a vague picture of the parable of Dives and Lazarus in her mind when she wrote those execrable words?
I heard that parable preached on recently, when the minister pronounced Dives to rhyme with hives.
When I preached on it I translated Dives as "Richie Rich".
To my ears that's hardly worse than 'dive-eez', since when the name was coined it would have been 'dee-βehss', where β is a bilabial voiced fricative.
IIRC, in the folk-song about Dives etc., as sung by Maddie Prior, the name is pronounced *DIVERS*...(or so it sounds to my ears)...
You're kind.
And thank you for your encouraging words. It's presented us with a few more challenges but nothing insurmountable, and overall it's a very good step in the life of our little community.
Harking back to Dives and Lazarus, it occurred to me that the folk song tune, a traditional English melody* known as Kingsfold, is often used for the hymn I heard the voice of Jesus say...
That hymn IMHO is much better suited to a Christian funeral than ATBAB.
*I thought the tune was one of those harmonised/adapted by Ralph Vaughan Williams, but my hymnbook is silent on that point.
(See how I got the thread back on track? Neat, eh?
Ah - thank you! I thought RVW had something to do with it...but I don't have a music copy of the English Hymnal to hand.
There isn't much more to add, to be honest. Since that initial video, we have acquired candlesticks for servers. They will sit on the outside of the icons of the Saviour and the Mother of God. When we eventually have a priest, there will also need to be an Oblations Table, where the Gifts will be prepared, but that's about it.
The space is used by other groups for other purposes, (mainly a children's playgroup), so everything must be set up for worship and put away once we've finished. The portable altar with folding legs was made for us, while the icon stands are in fact folding music stands with covers made specially for them in various colours.
They and everything else we use - the icons and lights in all of the windowsills, the books, music, incense, charcoal, censer & stand, and everything else - all has to be brought down from the upstairs storage space we have on the premises, and the seating has to be arranged.
Still, it looks good, and must be an inspiring space in which to worship (I like minimalist churches).
The former is simply the anglicized pronunciation a la KJV Self-Pronouncing Bible. We say Jeremiah rather than Yeremeeyahoo, so why not Dye-veez instead of Dee-vehss?
Additional tangent ... one Palm Sunday recently the one who was reading the narration in the Passion repeatedly pronounced Pilate as Pilartay. She was fairly advanced in years so must have heard it zillions of times.
She probably was thinking of Pilates, the exercise regime, which is pronounced like that. (assuming one has a non-rhotic accent ... and the stress is on the middle syllable)
I had fits of laughter during the reading of the lesson when the reader said' Pontius Pilates" and had visions of Pilate taking part in vigorous exercise.
How nice to have a real, live and very competent keyboard player to lead our singing (at Our Place all the music is recorded or 'mechanical') - and what a treat to sing lustily and without masks (first time since March 2020 and we still have them her in Wales).
Faithful One
Everlasting God (Strength will rise)
Before the throne of God above
In Christ Alone
300(?) of us raised the roof of their barn!
In which case she would not have led anything… In RC traddie circle ( real) balls are a given for solo reading or singing….
Morning has broken
In Christ there is no East or West
God is surely coming (I think that was the title, it went to Land of Hope and Glory)
May the mind of Christ my Saviour
Go, tell it on the mountain.
Praise the Lord, you heavens adore him (SUSSEX, after deliberation)
Give thanks with a grateful heart (GO WEST, or so it seems)
I heard the voice of Jesus say (ROWAN TREE, which is an absolute pain in the bum to find a decent midi file for)
Come and find the quiet centre (LEWIS FOLK MELODY)
O Jesus I have promised (WOLVERCOTE, because none of the other 874 common tunes for it appealed)
Neither .... but heavily into amateur dramatics with a pasted on "posh" accent. Maybe she thought it was classier or maybe she had never heard it read aloud in all her seven decades.
Instrumental at the offertory.
Unless a grain of wheat at communion.
Guide me O thou great Redeemer at the end with Welsh folks singing it in Welsh!
Come, now is the time to worship
Big family of God ( action song)
For I’m building a people of power
Hosanna, hosanna
Setting
The Downside Service Murray
Motet
Tantum ergo De Sévérac
Hymns
Beyond all mortal praise Marlborough Gate
Thou art the Christ, O Lord Croft's 136th
Praise to the holiest Chorus Angelorum
Jesus, our Master Harwich
Let bells peal forth Woodlands
Organ
Fugue sur le thème du Carillon des Heures de la Cathédrale de Soissons Duruflé
So I tiptoed into our online Morning Office With Optional Spiritual Communion, hosted by our +* ... i kinda had to because I was the preacher at the same event the week before and it looked a bit bad if I only turn up when I have a role.
... Three hymns chosen by theme more or less but by three different people, invited by the +. I'd zoned right out by the third but the first was something about 10,000 Reasons which sounded a bit Taylor Swift to me but was pleasant enough in a personal ecstasy me and my boyfriend kind of way (actually I kinda liked it but I'm a sucker for sentiment; I even like Taylor Swift). The second was and interpretation of Psalm 139 by someone and it seemed soporific enough to send a bottle of Red Bull to sleep. And as I say I was gone for the third. Because of the second, I guess.
I must be losing my faith. *rolleyes*
*+ and I are pally, despite my learned distrust of (most) +s. I just don't get his taste in goddy song, though we share the same taste in secular music. But that's because if it's not in A & M (or at a push Complete Anglican or Together in Song / With One Voice / Whatever Else it's Badged As** then it's not True hymnody™.
** a bit like Chevrolet/Holden/Opel/Vauxhall
Today we had:
While We Are Waiting, Come/Waiting
I Greet Thee, Who My Sure Redeemer Art/Toulon*
Take Thou Our Minds, Dear Lord/Hall
You Shall Go Out with Joy/The Trees of the Field
* This is one that I’ve come to realize seems to be rarely encountered, at least in the Anglosphere, outside Reformed/Presbyterian churches and Reformed/Presbyterian hymnals, though I have come across recordings on YouTube, like this one, that seem to come from sources without obvious Reformed/Presbyterian connection. (Although perhaps a name like “Sovereign Grace Music” does indeed suggest some sort of connection.)
It seems rather a shame to me that it’s not more widely known, as I think it’s a really great hymn. (And I’m disappointed that the recording to which I linked omits the fourth verse.) Traditionally, it has been attributed to John Calvin. Whether he actually wrote it or not—and some authorities think it’s a Protestant adaption of the Salve Regina—it appeared in the 1545 Strasbourg Psalter (as Je te salue, mon certain Redempteur). I wish it was more widely known.
Yes, the version known here is very much associated with Christmas, both in terms of the ending of the refrain and of the verses.
Indeed. I just can't see why we'd accept one ahistorical pronunciation but pour scorn on another.
I went to a wedding yesterday at which it was sung.
I confess I do not share your enthusiasm for it.
'Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of Creation" (Praise to the Lord)
"O Sion haste, thy mission high fulfilling.' (Tidings)
"Alleluia! sing to Jesus!" (Hyfradol)
The usual Merbeck/Old Scottish Gloria for the ordinary, and I have no clue what the organ voluntaries were except they both sounded mid-Baroque.
“Turn Back, O Man” disappeared from our denominational hymnals some time ago, but when it was in them it was sung to Old 124th. But we still use Old 124th for Psalm 124.
'Turn Back, O man, forswear thy foolish ways" is still to the Old 124th in our hymnal. Toulon appears as the tune for "God of the Prophets, bless the Prophets' sons" which still makes an occasional appearance at ordinations in our neck of the woods. I's always suspected the two were closely related, but did not know how,
Likewise, the only version of “We Plow the Fields and Scatter” that I like is the version from Godspell—“All Good Gifts.”
That show had and continues to have a major impact on me and on my faith.