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Heaven: 2022 April Book Club Piranesi by Susanna Clarke

SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
edited August 2022 in Limbo
This months Book Club pick is Piranesi by Susanna Clarke. I found it a strange and haunting read and I'm looking forward to re-reading it this month. As usual some questions will appear on or around the 20th.
More about the book here. It was also serialised on BBC radio, but that isn't available at the moment.

Comments

  • Tree BeeTree Bee Shipmate
    Intrigued. I’ve reserved a copy from the library.
  • I think this is the only novel I have read in the last decade (I prefer non-fiction as I don’t like surprise twists due to my anxiety) and I pre-ordered it and read it as soon as it came out as I like the author’s previous work. It is quite unusual and I found it beautiful.
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    I loved this one. I hope I remember enough about it to have meaningful things to say in the discussion, as I was completely captivated when I read it soon after it came out.
  • MiliMili Shipmate
    I put an e-copy on hold at the library and got it quicker than expected, then read it in a few days. I loved the imagery and the links to Narnia, especially 'The Magician's Nephew', but tried to to compare it to the series too much as it comes from such a different world view.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Great, pleased we've got a few takers. I'm looking forward to a re-read as the first time I wasn't quite sure about it all at first, though by the end I was hooked. A second read will be good. Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell by her is one of favourite books, but this is very different.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Apparently I've read the book, but don't remember a thing! Hopefully I'll be able to reread it and participate in the discussion.
  • LolaLola Shipmate Posts: 49
    Delighted to see this come up. I thought this was a beautiful book and so well controlled and economical for something that was so clever and original. I have also read Jonathan Strange and was interested the contrast (what a brick of a book) and some of the cross themes - such as the footnotes and the benefits of research!
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    I'm almost finished with Piranesi, and nope. I did not read it before! How in the world it was marked as read in my e-book, I'll never know!
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    edited April 2022
    I’ve nearly finished my rereading too and am looking forward to the discussion.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Managed to download a library copy onto Kindle and am rereading between power cuts, hoping to finish it over Easter. So absorbing, looking forward to the discussion.
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    I've finished it - quite unlike anything that I have ever read!
  • MaramaMarama Shipmate
    Well that was strange! Looking forward to the discussion.
  • Tree BeeTree Bee Shipmate
    Finished! Looking forward to seeing what you all make of it.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Well it's the 20th so here are some questions. Please feel free to add some of your own.


    What did you make of it, were you bewitched, bothered or bewildered by it?

    Were you convinced by the world Piranesi inhabits? What do you think was the importance of the statues?

    Piranesi forgets that he is effectively in a prison and sees himself as the 'beloved child of the house'. Does it make the labyrinth any less of a prison?

    The book starts with a quote from Lewis's The Magician's Nephew and The Other has the same name as that magician and there are hints that he might be a descendent. How important do you think that is to the story?

    I wondered if Piranesi's real surname of Sorensen was deliberately meant as a reminder of Sorry Carlisle in Margaret Mahy's The Changeover, and if the name Raphael is a nod to the archangel. What do you think and what other connections have I missed?

    Any other thoughts?
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The 'real' Giovanni Battista Piranesi produced a highly unusual series of prints called Imaginary Prisons. These etchings were issued as a collection of fourteen around 1749–50 and then reissued—after significant reworking—as a set of sixteen in 1761. I've been immersing myself in these and they were undoubtedly an influence on Susanna Clarke.
  • Tree BeeTree Bee Shipmate
    What did you make of it, were you bewitched, bothered or bewildered by it?
    A bit of all three. The statues, the tides, the halls conjured up an intricate but frightening world. Piranesi seemed to have it all figured out at the start.

    Were you convinced by the world Piranesi inhabits? What do you think was the importance of the statues?
    Convinced? I went along with it as a sci fi novel. When the Other kept turning up immaculately dressed I realised there was an outside world too.
    I don’t know about the statues though the different figures were interesting. Mr Bee looked at the book title and asked,”Statues?” which gave me a start.


    Piranesi forgets that he is effectively in a prison and sees himself as the 'beloved child of the house'. Does it make the labyrinth any less of a prison?
    Yes, before he found his old journal entries he was content there. He found it difficult to leave in the end.

    The book starts with a quote from Lewis's The Magician's Nephew and The Other has the same name as that magician and there are hints that he might be a descendent. How important do you think that is to the story?
    That passed me by. It’s a long time since I read The Magician’s Nephew.

    I wondered if Piranesi's real surname of Sorensen was deliberately meant as a reminder of Sorry Carlisle in Margaret Mahy's The Changeover, and if the name Raphael is a nod to the archangel. What do you think and what other connections have I missed?
    I missed that too. There may be many more references that I haven’t seen. I’ll be interested to see what others spot.

    I’m glad I read this as it’s a haunting story, but it’s also very weird.

    (Sorry, I tried to put my answers in italics but only managed some!)
  • MiliMili Shipmate

    What did you make of it, were you bewitched, bothered or bewildered by it?

    I found the descriptions of the house-world enchanting, though a little repetitive at times. The story was engaging and although I could predict some of the events, there were enough surprises to keep it interesting. 'The Magician's Nephew' is my favourite book from the Narnia series and I last read it a few years ago, so the house-world reminded me of the world of Charn, where Jadis the witch 'Queen' of Narnia came from. I was more charmed by the worlds and place between worlds in C.S. Lewis' series, maybe because all of the scientific study and the conclusion that the deep magic in the fictional world in 'Piranesi' no longer or had never existed. It took away the magic for me.

    Were you convinced by the world Piranesi inhabits? What do you think was the importance of the statues?

    I was convinced by the world as a sci-fi or fantasy setting. The statues seemed to be related to thoughts, dreams, myths and stories from people in our world. In this way it reminded me of the movie 'The Never Ending Story', especially as at times I wondered if the world would be destroyed by the ocean and erosion. Although there was no sense that another world could not be created due to modern technology, unlike in 'The Never Ending Story' where children not reading and daydreaming as much affected the existence of Fantasia

    Piranesi forgets that he is effectively in a prison and sees himself as the 'beloved child of the house'. Does it make the labyrinth any less of a prison?

    Piranesi seemed mostly happy in the house and so did not seem imprisoned, from his point of view. It must have been a shock going back to our world, given he had forgotten so many people lived there and all its complexities. It was interesting that he felt like a different person, even though his friends and family still saw him as the man they had known before.

    The book starts with a quote from Lewis's The Magician's Nephew and The Other has the same name as that magician and there are hints that he might be a descendent. How important do you think that is to the story?

    I think it depends if you are familiar with the book. You don't need to have read or remember much about 'The Magician's Nephew' to appreciate and fully understand 'Piranesi', but as a fan of the first book, I enjoyed finding connections.

    I wondered if Piranesi's real surname of Sorensen was deliberately meant as a reminder of Sorry Carlisle in Margaret Mahy's The Changeover, and if the name Raphael is a nod to the archangel. What do you think and what other connections have I missed?

    There are probably lots of links I missed and things the statues were referring to that I have little or no knowledge of, but I enjoyed the book without knowing what they were. It will be interesting to read any other connections people make, however.

    Any other thoughts?
    [/quote]

    I liked how Piranesi was so pure and kind-hearted while living in the house-world, however I think the Narnia series is enriched by the faults of the children who visit Narnia, even though they are sometimes laid on a bit thick and used to overly moralise by C.S. Lewis.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Because I only read CS Lewis' Narnia series as an adult, I don't have such deeply felt connections there. What did jump out at me was another major influence, the work of Jorge Luis Borges and his labyrinths (The Garden of Forking Paths) and vast libraries. Mazes and labyrinths have enduring fascination (I found myself thinking about Guillermo del Toro's film Pan's Labyrinth with its captive faun, along with the ancient Greek tales about Theseus fighting the Minotaur in an underground labyrinth on Crete). The novel resembled an unfolding puzzle, and the wondering, detached and often disingenuous tone of the narrator added to the mystery.

    Set against the complex and intricate pattern of architecture, there is incipient chaos and I kept thinking about the ocean trapped in the House, the tension between memory and forgetting and what can never be really known or resolved.
  • MaryLouiseMaryLouise Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    Apologies for double post, I've been thinking about @Sarasa's prompts.

    Studying philosophy as an undergrad, we talked about Plato's cave and the shadows on the wall projected by firelight, all that the chained and imprisoned inhabitants of the cave know of reality. The statues in Piranesi seemed at first to be nothing more than carved stone representations of the real world, scenes and people sculpted from another world, fixed archetypes. Yet they are more than that for Piranesi and, later, on his return to "the real world" he will see people passing in the street and know their destinies and deep creative realities are to be found in the House, that he will always be the Beloved Child of the House and that being able to go back to the House is freedom not imprisonment.
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    I loved this book so much when I read it last year, but reading through responses to this thread has reminded me that I've forgotten a lot. Last night I started reading a book that's not grabbing my attention at all so I think I'll go back and reread Piranesi so I have a fresher memory, as I'd like to respond to some of the discussion questions here. I remember it as being a quick read first time around.
  • HelixHelix Shipmate
    Really glad to have read this book. Thank you for the suggestion and the questions. It's not a book I would have likely read without the book club and thread and I love the expansion of the mind.

    What did you make of it, were you bewitched, bothered or bewildered by it?

    I was utterly bewildered by this book. I haven’t read The Magician’s Nephew which may have placed me at a disadvantage in terms of understanding. It took me quite a long time to figure out what was going on. I found the characters – well weird! I figured out the Other was controlling Piranesi in some way, but that took some time, and even then I couldn’t quite work out the why of it all. I wondered what Piranesi did with his days, without internet, books, TV, companionship, but he was clearly a very deep thinker, very methodical.

    But at the same time, I was bewitched by it. I had to read it and finish it, and did so fairly quickly – I sign that I was utterly engrossed.

    Were you convinced by the world Piranesi inhabits? What do you think was the importance of the statues?

    The statues were something I didn’t understand. Piranesi seemed to have a relationship with them but any mythology there may have been was lost on me.
    Piranesi forgets that he is effectively in a prison and sees himself as the 'beloved child of the house'. Does it make the labyrinth any less of a prison?

    I felt there was something akin to “Stockholm Syndrome” with the labyrinth. Piranesi felt he was fortunate to be in the labyrinth and felt sorry for The Other not being there. The wording “beloved child of the house” felt archaic and I wondered where he had dragged those words up from.

    The book starts with a quote from Lewis's The Magician's Nephew and The Other has the same name as that magician and there are hints that he might be a descendent. How important do you think that is to the story?

    No idea! But I may read The Magician's Nephew now !

    I wondered if Piranesi's real surname of Sorensen was deliberately meant as a reminder of Sorry Carlisle in Margaret Mahy's The Changeover, and if the name Raphael is a nod to the archangel. What do you think and what other connections have I missed?

    Not read The Changeover, but also in relation to the statues, if I was more familiar with mythology, the statues might have more meaning..

    Any other thoughts?

    I too, found Piranesi a very kind and gentle character. And extremely methodical and thoughtful.

    One thing that did trouble me was how quickly he moved out of The Other’s spell, and began to withhold things from The Other. He considered the possibility that perhaps encounters with other people in his Labyrinth might not be a bad idea and I found it strange that he had entered the Labyrinth with his notebooks from his past - I would have thought The Other would have snaffled them. I couldn’t quite equate the coincidence that he had started to doubt The Other (for example, the occasion that he apparently missed the day to meet up with The Other and not be wholly satisfied that he was in error) not be wholly satisfied that he had mistaken the day of the week in meeting up with The Other.

    I did wonder how long he had been in the Labyrinth
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    What did you make of it, were you bewitched, bothered or bewildered by it?
    The first time I read the book I spent most of the time trying to work out where Piranesi actually was. I assumed it was a mental hospital and the statues, tides etc were delusions and that The Other was a doctor. When I gave up on that idea and just went with the flow I enjoyed it a lot more and was less bothered and bewildered. This time knowing what was happening I enjoyed it a lot more. I think most of my confusion on the first read was that I totally bought into the world of her previous novel Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell and this was so different.

    Were you convinced by the world Piranesi inhabits? What do you think was the importance of the statues?
    I found the world much more convincing this time around because I just accepted it for what it was.

    Piranesi forgets that he is effectively in a prison and sees himself as the 'beloved child of the house'. Does it make the labyrinth any less of a prison?
    Raphael and Sorensen's family see him as being imprisoned and that is presumably what The Other thinks too. Certainly Sorensen at first was horrified by what had happened to him, then he starts to accept and forget. Maybe it is a bit like drug addiction. Certainly James Ritter wants to return to the labyrinth even though her cannot live in it.

    The book starts with a quote from Lewis's The Magician's Nephew and The Other has the same name as that magician and there are hints that he might be a descendent. How important do you think that is to the story?
    It's a while since I read The Magician's Nephew, but from what I can remember the magician is happy for Diggory and Polly to travel to the other worlds, but has no desire to do so himself, a bit like Arne-Styles and Ketterley.

    I wondered if Piranesi's real surname of Sorensen was deliberately meant as a reminder of Sorry Carlisle in Margaret Mahy's The Changeover, and if the name Raphael is a nod to the archangel. What do you think and what other connections have I missed?
    Sorensen 'Sorry' Carlisle inThe Changeover feels somewhat like Matthew Rose Sorensen as a character, but I'm not sure I can analyse quite why. I'd love to meet Clarke and ask her.

    Any other thoughts?
    While writing this I've been looking at the end of the book. What do you think the hybrid Sorensen/Piranesi will do next. There are hints that his and Raphael's relationship will develop. Will they disappear into the labyrinth to raise their children?
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    If you liked Piranesi, you would probably like some of China Mieville's books. I described Piranesi to a fellow Mieville fan as "Mieville lite". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Miéville
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    I'm not going through the discussion question in order but I think I'm hitting on at least a few of them in my response:

    I finished my reread this morning and was delighted to find that I loved the book as much on a second reading as I did the first time. I didn't know if I would, because the first time I was so engaged with trying to figure out the mystery -- what is this world Piranesi is in, how did he get there, who is the Other, when is Piranesi himself going to figure all this out (a bit behind the reader, in my case, and I would assume most people's cases)? But even knowing all that I still enjoyed the reading. I find Matthew/Piranesi a wonderfully engaging character and narrator, and the basic idea -- a man who believes he is living an idyllic life, only to find out he is actually a prisoner -- is fascinating to me.

    Of course the faun statue and the other statue with the fox and the satyrs at the picnic reminded me of Narnia, but I'm not sure I would have caught Ketterly's name and remembered the name of Uncle Andrew in The Magician's Nephew if it hadn't been pointed out to me. But of course both Ketterlys are exactly the same kind of person - the type of "magician" who would send another person into a parallel universe to satisfy their own curiosity, but not be willing or prepared to take the risk of doing so themselves -- and, when they do get there, are not really all that interested in the world and what it has to offer. It's a really good tribute to the Lewis character.

    I also love the book for the big questions it poses. The whole idea that the world knows us and responds to us -- which is Arne-Sayles' initial theory about the ancients that leads him to the discovery of the labyrinth -- is, I think, fundamentally a theistic idea, as opposed to the modern, materialist and atheist idea that we live in a universe that is unaware of and uncaring about our presence. Piranesi's experience of the House takes things a step farther than Arne-Sayles's believe that the universe is aware of us; Piranesi believes that the House not only is aware of him, but loves him and acts on his behalf to care for him. Which, I think, is what most people of faith believe about the universe -- that far from being uncaring and unaware, it filled with a presence that is not only aware of us but benevolent toward us. So I loved the way that idea was explored.

    I think the ending is good too -- a bit melancholy, but good. It's interesting that the main character, at the end, identifies both Matthew Rose Sorenson and Piranesi as people separate from himself -- which you could argue is leading him in the direction of a dissociative disorder, but in fact, he seems to be willing to integrate them and their experiences both into his identity, but to recognize that he is someone different from either of them. I guess he never regains his memories of his pre-Piranesi life, even though he wears some of Matthew's clothes and interacts with Matthew's family. It's interesting, too, that ultimately the whole experience seems to have affected him in a positive way rather than traumatizing him. Since all the other people who went into the Labyrinth/House ultimately died there (except Raphael, whose angelic name can't be coincidental), it must be something to do with Matthew/Piranesi's own mind or personality that makes him thrive and ultimately integrate the experience into a very loving and generous view of the world and its people.

    I don't know if I can ever fully forgive Susannah Clarke for not writing a sequel to Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, but I did really, really love this book on both readings.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Trudy wrote: »
    I don't know if I can ever fully forgive Susannah Clarke for not writing a sequel to Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, but I did really, really love this book on both readings.

    Apparently Clarke was going to write a sequel then became ill, so decided to go back to an earlier idea she'd had which is Piranesi as it was an easier set of characters and plot to manage. I hope she is a lot better and we do get another book from the world of Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell.



  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    Oh, if she was ill then I can definitely forgive her! I would really love a follow-up book to JS&MN, but Piranesi is its own quite lovely thing.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    What did you make of it, were you bewitched, bothered or bewildered by it?
    I was enchanted by the book! When I first started reading it, it took me a while to understand what was going on...at least the beginnings of understanding.

    Were you convinced by the world Piranesi inhabits? What do you think was the importance of the statues?
    Piranesi's world was very descriptive. The map I tried to make in my head was too small, and trying to figure out the flooding tides was interesting. I loved how Piranesi knew his house-world, and how, with the help of his journals, he could predict what would happen with the tides. I'm not sure what I think of the statues. The descriptions were wonderful, but I kept wondering who had made them.

    Piranesi was a fun read, and I will add this to my 'to be re-read' list.

  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    I'm glad most of you enjoyed Piranesi. I was really pleased I had to read it again for the book club as I enjoyed it so much more the second time around, and may well read it a third time in the future.
  • LibsLibs Shipmate
    I'm sorry I didn't get around to reading it in time to join the discussion - but, after checking this thread out, it's definitely on my 'must read' list.
  • agingjbagingjb Shipmate
    I read Piranesi, and then managed to finish Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. I'm finding the short stories in The Ladies of Grace Adieu more appealing than either of the novels.

    Piranesi: an interesting construction. I'd compare it to Iain Banks The Bridge as an odd, unreal, setting where the reader is not certain what or where it is. For half the story I assumed that Piranesi was a woman.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    This thread will be open for a while @Libs if you get a chance to read Piranesi in the next few weeks.
    I too liked The Ladies of Grace Adieu @agingjb and I hope Clarke gets well enough to write some more stories in the Strange and Norrell world. Interesting that you thought Piranesi was a woman. Was there any particular reason for that?
  • agingjbagingjb Shipmate
    The book is a first person narrative; the author of the novel is a woman. Perhaps I just assumed a gender (and missed the obvious somewhere).
  • LibsLibs Shipmate
    What did you make of it, were you bewitched, bothered or bewildered by it? I was completely enthralled. It was one of those books that I kept trying to put down – to make it last – and also to (try to) make sure I was reading it properly and not galloping through. Even so, I finished it within 24 hours and may have to read it again before I take it back to the library. Like others, I spent ages trying to work out what was going on, though I must say that the idea Piranesi might be in a mental hospital never occurred to me.

    Were you convinced by the world Piranesi inhabits? What do you think was the importance of the statues? I didn’t at first see how the world could be a sufficient world in itself, given that the statues seem to gesture towards another – but then I wondered if it was a post-post-apocalypse thing. In a way, perhaps what I’m going to call the Overflow Theory explains the existence of this world. I think perhaps the importance of the statues, as with the birds, is the way in which Piranesi ascribes meaning to things and how that helps him to develop and grow.

    Piranesi forgets that he is effectively in a prison and sees himself as the 'beloved child of the house'. Does it make the labyrinth any less of a prison? Aren’t we back to Narnia themes again? You can be in the most beautiful place but, if you think it’s a prison, it will be a prison. Conversely, you can be in what others think of as a prison and find freedom and happiness. To The Other, Piranesi is perhaps something like a rat in a laboratory maze.

    The book starts with a quote from Lewis's The Magician's Nephew and The Other has the same name as that magician and there are hints that he might be a descendent. How important do you think that is to the story? I hadn’t realised it was the same name, but I did spot the nod to Tumnus meeting Lucy. I suppose the connection perhaps reinforced the idea that a magician is not necessarily terribly clever or wise, to say nothing of not being very nice.

    I wondered if Piranesi's real surname of Sorensen was deliberately meant as a reminder of Sorry Carlisle in Margaret Mahy's The Changeover, and if the name Raphael is a nod to the archangel. What do you think and what other connections have I missed?
    I don’t know Mahy’s book. The name conjured for me was Arne Saknussemm (from Jules Verne, but I didn’t remember the detail, just that he was an explorer.adventurer) and perhaps also endless Scandi detectives. I don’t know why, but it wasn’t a surprise to learn he was of mixed race. Is there a sly hint that the Laurence tastes ran that way – and perhaps also with ketterley being such a vile character, it made it easier for him to use him as a slave – but I suppose the key thing was saying no one knew he was there. [A bit like not shutting the door of the wardrobe: never let any stranger you meet know that no one else knows where you are]. I agree Raphael is a nod to the archangel but perhaps we are just being asked to consider what angels might be. How could an angel be caught by a thorny bush? Apparently there is a book called ‘Angel in a Thorn Bush’ by Rob Fynn which might be said to have religious/spiritual sub-themes.

    Any other thoughts? It was interesting that Piranesi could be seen as inventing his own religion – and yet it was not completely delusional – it worked for him. The prophecy of the birds, as he interpreted it, came true. He was upheld, he was saved and justified.

    Thanks so much for prompting me to get down to reading this - it's been on the list for a long time.
  • SarasaSarasa All Saints Host
    Thanks for your comments @Libs. I'd forgotten about the Dwarves in The Last Battle, but that fits in really well with the whole theme of the book.
  • LibsLibs Shipmate
    Sarasa wrote: »
    I'd forgotten about the Dwarves in The Last Battle, but that fits in really well with the whole theme of the book.
    And i'd forgotten who it was who was in prison and which book - so thank you!

    Do you think Uncle Andrew from TMN is somehow divided between Laurence and the Other? The Other has the name, but doesn't Laurence look more like the original AK? (I'm going to have to go back to The Magician's Nephew aren't I? I've only just passed it on to my step-grandson.

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