Ship of Fools: Holy Trinity, Toronto, Ontario, Canada


imageShip of Fools: Holy Trinity, Toronto, Ontario, Canada

A hybrid communion service in church and on Zoom, with hymns, readings and prayers from the congregation online

Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here


Comments

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 18
    Is the date of this Report actually correct? This sounds more like the sort of service churches were holding during Covid, or just after the worst was over, rather than the *normal* Sunday eucharist.

    ETA: Answering my own question, I see from the website that the hybrid style of service is indeed being used at the present time.
  • TrackerTracker Shipmate Posts: 5
    To further explain the style of worship at Holy Trinity, the presider for the service on that day was a person broadcasting on Zoom from Thunder Bay, Ontario. Thunder Bay is 1,377 kms north of the church!
  • >> a very good revised version of the Lord's Prayer <<

    That's an oxymoron. The traditional English translation is perhaps the best known and best loved prayer in the English language. There is no justification for "revising" it.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Well, that’s your opinion, just as the description was the opinion of the reporter.
  • The Mystery Worshipper Guidelines thread states in part: "The kinds of threads acceptable here are . . . emerging and traditional worship practices as reflected in the church’s way of doing things; debates about liturgical and worship issues raised." If expressing an opinion about something that was done during the service does not fit that guideline, then I would be happy to retract my post.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 19
    I did look at the service MWed on YouTube (via the church website), but I'm afraid I found the Zoomy to-ing and fro-ing too much to cope with.

    This is not to criticise the church - it's a good use of modern technology - but it's not for me. If others find it helpful in keeping them *in the loop*, so much the better, of course.

    I didn't last long enough to find out which version of the Lord's Prayer they used!

  • You're probably the better for it.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    The Mystery Worshipper Guidelines thread states in part: "The kinds of threads acceptable here are . . . emerging and traditional worship practices as reflected in the church’s way of doing things; debates about liturgical and worship issues raised." If expressing an opinion about something that was done during the service does not fit that guideline, then I would be happy to retract my post.
    Disagreeing with your opinion is not the same thing as saying you shouldn’t have expressed your opinion or are not entitled to it. :wink:

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 20
    A couple of things struck me as a result of the MW Report, and as a result of watching at least part of the service:

    1. The very small congregation - not only those present, but also those participating by Zoom;
    2. The apparently elderly demographic (which begs the question, maybe, as to why a *revised* version of the Lord's Prayer was used!).

    This does appear to be a progressive and thoughtful church and congregation, though, and one can only wish them well in the (possibly uncertain) future.
  • Terry TeeTerry Tee Shipmate Posts: 10
    Is it possible for a presider hundreds of miles away to consecrate bread and wine in another location? I find this weird. I believe that in England some Zoom services invite remote participants to have some bread and wine (or grape juice) by their side and to share in that way. Ex ecclesia anglicana semper aliquid novi.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Terry Tee wrote: »
    Ex ecclesia anglicana semper aliquid novi.

    [Hostly cotta on]
    Can we have a translation please?
  • Terry TeeTerry Tee Shipmate Posts: 10
    Pliny famously wrote, 'Ex Africa semper aliquid novi' - 'There's always something new coming out of Africa.' So I plagiarised to read ''There's always something new coming from the Anglican Church.'
  • Hmm ... during Covid I recorded services, including Communion as suggested above, for Facebook. Note the word "recorded" - I usually did this on the Friday afternoon but the service didn't become available to view until 11am on the Sunday, the idea being that most folk would then watch it simultaneously to engender a sense of community. Of course our view of "consecration" is not an Anglican or Catholic one, and any epiklesis is a call for God's Spirit to bless the worshippers rather than the elements.
  • WillWill Shipmate Posts: 1
    The Saviour’s Prayer at Holy Trinity, Trinity Square, Toronto: “O God, our Mother and Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name, your reign come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Save us from the time of trial, and deliver us from evil. For the realm, the power, and the glory are yours, now and for ever. AMEN.”
  • Not even the strongest smelling salts would revive Miss Amanda from her swoon if she had to listen to that in church.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Will wrote: »
    The Saviour’s Prayer at Holy Trinity, Trinity Square, Toronto: “O God, our Mother and Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name, your reign come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Save us from the time of trial, and deliver us from evil. For the realm, the power, and the glory are yours, now and for ever. AMEN.”
    So, basically the contemporary language version found in Rite II of TEC’s 1979 Book of Common Prayer, adopted in 1988 by the ecumenical English Language Liturgical Consultation and in 2006 in the ELCA’s Evangelical Lutheran Worship, with “O God, our Mother and Father in Heaven” replacing “Our Father in heaven,” and “reign” replacing “kingdom.”


  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited March 21
    I haven't had much exposure to what one might call contemporary-language versions of the Lord's Prayer (Our Place uses the one with thy, trespasses, temptation etc. etc.), but this example doesn't seem to trip off the tongue very well.

    Maybe that's no bad thing, as one is led to think about what the various petitions are saying...

    The version used at Holy Trinity does chime in with the church's inclusive and liberal outlook, though.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    I haven't had much exposure to what one might call contemporary-language versions of the Lord's Prayer (Our Place uses the one with thy, trespasses, temptation etc. etc.), but this example doesn't seem to trip off the tongue very well.
    FWIW, the contemporary version that appears in TEC’s ‘79 BCP, ELCA’s ‘06 ELW, resources from the ELLC, and various other liturgical books and resources (including the PC(USA)’s Book of Common Worship) is:

    Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on earth as in heaven.
    Give us today our daily bread.
    Forgive us our sins
    as we forgive those who sin against us.
    Save us from the time of trial
    and deliver us from evil.
    For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
    now and forever. Amen.

    One thing this version does is use the very straightforward “sins/those who sin against us” rather than either of the traditional options that require some explanation for most speakers of contemporary English: “debts/debtors” (are we talking about money transactions?) or “trespasses/those who trespass against us” (are we talking about coming onto property without permission?).
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    I haven't had much exposure to what one might call contemporary-language versions of the Lord's Prayer (Our Place uses the one with thy, trespasses, temptation etc. etc.), but this example doesn't seem to trip off the tongue very well.
    FWIW, the contemporary version that appears in TEC’s ‘79 BCP, ELCA’s ‘06 ELW, resources from the ELLC, and various other liturgical books and resources (including the PC(USA)’s Book of Common Worship) is:

    Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name,
    your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on earth as in heaven.
    Give us today our daily bread.
    Forgive us our sins
    as we forgive those who sin against us.
    Save us from the time of trial
    and deliver us from evil.
    For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
    now and forever. Amen.

    One thing this version does is use the very straightforward “sins/those who sin against us” rather than either of the traditional options that require some explanation for most speakers of contemporary English: “debts/debtors” (are we talking about money transactions?) or “trespasses/those who trespass against us” (are we talking about coming onto property without permission?).

    O yes - I could live with that! As you say, straightforward...but to use it at Our Place would be regarded as being on a par with introducing the worship of Mithras...
    :flushed:
  • TrackerTracker Shipmate Posts: 5
    Terry Tee wrote: »
    Is it possible for a presider hundreds of miles away to consecrate bread and wine in another location? I find this weird. I believe that in England some Zoom services invite remote participants to have some bread and wine (or grape juice) by their side and to share in that way. Ex ecclesia anglicana semper aliquid novi.

    This church has more Anglican clergy in the congregation, male, female, active, retired, or going for ordination than I have ever seen in one place. At the time of Communion a male priest from the congregation stood up, put on a stole, and proceeded to celebrate. I didn't think calling the presider the "emcee" was appropriate. I probably should have explained what happened at the time of Communion but hey, this was my first report as a MW, and I thought I'd written enough.
  • If God wanted to transform a bit of bread and wine into his Precious Body and Blood, I don't imagine he'd concern himself with the details of the staging. Although we might.
  • Terry TeeTerry Tee Shipmate Posts: 10
    Thank you Tracker for the clarification.
  • edited April 7
    I have always felt that Ian Drury's "Bus Driver's Prayer manages to fuse traditional cadences with striking geocentric insights:

    Our Farnham,[1] who art in Hendon[2]
    Harrow be Thy name.[3]
    Thy Kingston come; thy Wimbledon[4]
    In Erith as it is in Hendon.
    Give us this day our daily Brent[5]
    And forgive us our Westminster[6]
    As we forgive those who Westminster against us.[7][8]
    And lead us not into Thames Ditton[9]
    But deliver us from Yeovil.[10]
    For Thine is the Kingston, the Purley, and the Crawley,[11]
    For Esher and Esher.[12]
    Crouch End.
  • Since when has Yeovil been on a London bus route? At least Farnham would have been in the Country Buses/Green Line orbit!
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    Since when has Yeovil been on a London bus route? At least Farnham would have been in the Country Buses/Green Line orbit!

    I don’t think London Country or Green Lines went out that far. Farnham was covered by Aldershot & District and later, Alder Valley.
  • Since when do any London bus routes go past Holy Trinity, Toronto?
  • SojournerSojourner Shipmate
    Try megabus.ca….
  • Spike wrote: »
    Since when has Yeovil been on a London bus route? At least Farnham would have been in the Country Buses/Green Line orbit!

    I don’t think London Country or Green Lines went out that far. Farnham was covered by Aldershot & District and later, Alder Valley.

    It was indeed! My Dad used to work on the "Traco" - which was also known as "Have-a-shot & Riskit".

    (I was actually born on the outskirts of Farnham. Know it well!)
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