Joseph the Dreamer

jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
We had the gospel passage of the journey to Egypt and back today, and it struck me that new testament Joseph both gets and acts on a large number of dreams.
Specifically marrying Mary, going to Egypt, returning from Egypt and going to Nazerath.

By default I tend to think of him to the side (probably from Luke and combined-Nativity gospels).
But in Matthew, he really does seem to have a really active role.

a) are there traditions that go into him as more than just an ok step-dad?
b) why did Matthew write that. Is there some cultural dynamics in Matthews reporting (why not in like)?
c) three of them are 'Angels' in dreams (1:20, 2:13, 2:19), is there anything to say? The one just after the magi left is suspiciously close to what hed have heard in sleep...
d) In 2:12 the magi go a different route because of a dream, but it doesn't say it's their dream (the same is true for Joseph's in 2:22). I don't think it adds anything, even if you were doing a Joseph centric nativity.

Comments

  • HarryCHHarryCH Shipmate
    Joseph is sent at least four dreams, and he acts obediently in each case. In most of the Bible, if you have four such dreams, you would have a book named after you and be listed as a patriarch. God thought so highly of Joseph that he entrusted Jesus to him.

    I don't understand why people bad-mouth him.
  • Do they? I'd never noticed that.
  • Do they? I'd never noticed that.
    Me either. Ignore him, yes, but not badmouth him.


  • Perhaps there is also an allusion to the interpretation of dreams by Joseph in the Old Testament.
  • Perhaps there is also an allusion to the interpretation of dreams by Joseph in the Old Testament.
    I had the same thought, especially since I assumed the OT Joseph when I saw the thread title.


  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited December 28
    All we know about NT Joseph is that he took Mary as his wife. He formally named Jesus, which means he was the adoptive father of Jesus. He takes mother and child to Egypt because Herod was out to kill the baby and eventually settles the family in Nazareth. The only other time we meet Joseph is when they took Jesus to be presented at the temple, and then when Jesus was around twelve, they went to Jerusalem again.

    We assume Joseph was a carpenter, because when Jesus tried to preach and heal people in Nazareth, the people asked if Jesus was the son of a carpenter.

    There is no indication of what happened to Joseph after the final trip to Jerusalem, but we can assume he may have died sometime thereafter since it appears Mary becomes a widow. We find Mary interacting with Jesus at the wedding feast in Cana, and then Mary and his brothers try to intervene as Jesus' ministry is taking off--and getting noticed by those in authority who were opposed what Jesus was saying and doing.

    Joseph, though, plays a key role in the NT story, naming Jesus, raising him as his son, probably teaching him the skills of the carpenter trade, modeling what it means to be a righteous man--honoring God while showing mercy to others.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited December 28
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    All we know about NT Joseph is that he took Mary as his wife. He formally named Jesus, which means he was the adoptive father of Jesus. He takes mother and child to Egypt because Herod was out to kill the baby and eventually settles the family in Nazareth. The only other time we meet Joseph is when they took Jesus to be presented at the temple, and then when Jesus was around twelve, they went to Jerusalem again.
    We also know he was the son of Jacob son of Matthan, that he was descended from David, that he and Mary were poor (as indicated by their offering of two turtle doves or pigeons rather than a lamb when they presented Jesus at the Temple), that he along with Mary was “amazed” at what Simeon said, and that he was, according to Matthew and as you say, “a righteous man.”

    We assume Joseph was a carpenter, because when Jesus tried to preach and heal people in Nazareth, the people asked if Jesus was the son of a carpenter.
    Slight correction: they asked if Jesus was the son of “the carpenter,” not of “a carpenter.”


  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Perhaps there is also an allusion to the interpretation of dreams by Joseph in the Old Testament.
    I had the same thought, especially since I assumed the OT Joseph when I saw the thread title.


    I had thought of it merely as a odd near coincidence.

    But it makes some sense that it influenced Matthew, if only between calling the same thing a dream or vision. Especially as it must be quite a hazy third hand account by then.
  • jay_emm wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Perhaps there is also an allusion to the interpretation of dreams by Joseph in the Old Testament.
    I had the same thought, especially since I assumed the OT Joseph when I saw the thread title.

    I had thought of it merely as a odd near coincidence.

    But it makes some sense that it influenced Matthew, if only between calling the same thing a dream or vision. Especially as it must be quite a hazy third hand account by then.

    Not necessarily third hand at all. And of course Matthew would have noticed the parallel between the dream-related aspects of the two Josephs.
  • I wonder if maybe the reason God chose dreams to communicate with him was precisely because he knew Joseph was likely to make the connection with how God spoke to Joseph son of Jacob. I suspect the familiarity would help (as opposed to, say, God communicating this time in waking visions).

    I've also been thinking about the suggestion that maybe Joseph was just dreaming of what was most on his mind while awake, and therefore these dreams were only natural. But when i look at my own experience, I can't manipulate my own dreaming at all, even when i set out deliberately to focus on certain subjects as I'm falling asleep. I don't think i could do it once, let alone five times.
  • ChastMastr wrote: »
    jay_emm wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Perhaps there is also an allusion to the interpretation of dreams by Joseph in the Old Testament.
    I had the same thought, especially since I assumed the OT Joseph when I saw the thread title.

    I had thought of it merely as a odd near coincidence.

    But it makes some sense that it influenced Matthew, if only between calling the same thing a dream or vision. Especially as it must be quite a hazy third hand account by then.

    Not necessarily third hand at all. And of course Matthew would have noticed the parallel between the dream-related aspects of the two Josephs.


    Something to notice. The first Joseph brought Isreal to Egypt because of a famine. The second Joseph took mother and child to escape Herod''s wrath.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    jay_emm wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Perhaps there is also an allusion to the interpretation of dreams by Joseph in the Old Testament.
    I had the same thought, especially since I assumed the OT Joseph when I saw the thread title.

    I had thought of it merely as a odd near coincidence.

    But it makes some sense that it influenced Matthew, if only between calling the same thing a dream or vision. Especially as it must be quite a hazy third hand account by then.

    Not necessarily third hand at all. And of course Matthew would have noticed the parallel between the dream-related aspects of the two Josephs.


    Something to notice. The first Joseph brought Isreal to Egypt because of a famine. The second Joseph took mother and child to escape Herod''s wrath.

    You’re right! I never noticed that till now. 😮
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Something to notice. The first Joseph brought Isreal to Egypt because of a famine. The second Joseph took mother and child to escape Herod''s wrath.

    You’re right! I never noticed that till now. 😮
    I think it's because the second time is normally read as "Jesus goes to Egypt (with parents)".

    How do you suggest Matthew might hear Joseph's account more directly?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited December 29
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Perhaps there is also an allusion to the interpretation of dreams by Joseph in the Old Testament.
    I had the same thought, especially since I assumed the OT Joseph when I saw the thread title.

    That's also what I assumed, largely due to Andrew Lloy...err, I mean, my extensive knowledge of biblical literature.
  • jay_emm wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    Something to notice. The first Joseph brought Isreal to Egypt because of a famine. The second Joseph took mother and child to escape Herod''s wrath.

    You’re right! I never noticed that till now. 😮
    I think it's because the second time is normally read as "Jesus goes to Egypt (with parents)".

    How do you suggest Matthew might hear Joseph's account more directly?

    From Jesus Himself, or Mary, or others in the know among the Apostles.

    (Yes, I know various recent scholars dispute St. Matthew’s authorship of St. Matthew’s Gospel.)
  • jay_emmjay_emm Kerygmania Host
    They (Joseph tells Mary tells Matthew* and Joseph tells teenage Jesus tells Matthew) were the two exceptions I thought of (other than Joseph reappearing).
    I hadn't thought of the brother's. or thought of Joseph knowing the Galilean apostles (or a younger Mary, which would be sort of third hand)
    There's not too much complex info in the passage anyway.

    *Or first formal recorder of that account.
  • Whatever accretions the accounts may have gained, Joseph is certainly a good role-model, not least for clergy - listening, thoughtful, obedient, and happy to forgo the limelight. One of the quiet heroes.
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