Please see Styx thread on the Registered Shipmates consultation for the main discussion forums - your views are important, continues until April 4th.

Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

13233353738131

Comments

  • Wet KipperWet Kipper Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    A question for my US based shipmates

    the new song by Taylor Swift, "Christmas Tree Farm" talks about 'Cider flowing'.
    Similarly I recall seeing bottles / cartons (similar to what milk would be in) of "Apple Cider" in the juice sections of supermarkets when i visited some years ago

    In the US, is Cider synonymous with "Apple Juice?" (or pear or whatever fruit) ?
    here in the UK, Cider always denotes the fermented, alcoholic drink from apples (or other fruit).
    If it is just US-speak for Apple juice, what do you then call the alcoholic version?
  • Not US based, but I spent 7 years there... I think they call what we call cider "hard cider".
  • Rossweisse wrote: »
    "The holidays" is the period when work grinds to an end for everyone except retail workers, restaurant workers, delivery folk of varying descriptions, entertainers, and journalists.
    And police, firefighters, EMTs, health care workers, lots of government workers, and quite a few others I can think of. My office is closed Dec 24, 25 and 26 and Jan 1. If I want anything more than those days off, I have to use some of my vacation days (which I doing since my kids are home from college, though it remains to be seen how much I’ll need to work while on vacation).

    I remember when work slowed down in the legal world in late December. Those days are gone, and have been gone a few decades.

    @Wet Kipper, as @Cathscats says, what is called cider in the UK is generally called “hard cider” here, though that is changing a little. Cider here generally means unrefined apple juice.

  • Yes I've never been able to figure out the distinction between "apple juice" and "apple cider." In general they both mean unfermented apple juice. As noted we call the real stuff "apple cider." In the old days we had something called "apple jack" but I'm not entirely sure what that was, since it was for all intents and purposes gone by the time I was drinking booze.
  • The general, if vague, distinction that seems to be used here is that apple juice is strained and purified to the point of having a translucent, jewel-like amber color. It may or may not be sweetened. Kids drink it.

    Cider is not strained or purified and retains a thickish, cloudy color that isn’t in the least translucent. It isn’t sweetened, and kids typically won’t touch it.

    I’m about to make caramel sauce with the aforementioned kind of cider, which will be delivered to neighbors.

  • Wish I lived closer.
  • Apple Jack I'd take to be distilled cider. Same principle as Calvados.
  • I've read a historical fiction description of the making of apple jack (is that carefully circumlocuted enough?) which involves freezing hard cider and then removing the unfrozen alcoholic "heart" of the barrel. So basically way over-alcoholized hard cider.
  • I've read a historical fiction description of the making of apple jack (is that carefully circumlocuted enough?) which involves freezing hard cider and then removing the unfrozen alcoholic "heart" of the barrel. So basically way over-alcoholized hard cider.

    That sounds very familiar.
  • Then I expect you’ve read the Outlander novels! Or possibly Michael Pollan.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Reportedly, Johnny Appleseed, the folk hero US kids learn about in school , actually went around planting all those trees to eventually make *hard cider* with.

    Not quite what I was taught! ;)
  • Right. Hard cider was the most widely-consumed drink in the US in the early days of the country.

    Johnny Appleseed (aka John Chapman) was also a Swedenborgian minister.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Right. Hard cider was the most widely-consumed drink in the US in the early days of the country.

    Johnny Appleseed (aka John Chapman) was also a Swedenborgian minister.

    This explains the converts from Methodism. (joking)
  • Before Prohibition "cider" did refer to an alcoholic drink in the US as nearly all fruit juices will turn into alcohol if not pasteurized. When prohibition came into effect, American producers had to learn to change with the times. Lately, though, many local producers hare beginning to sell the hard stuff again.

    On a different tack, I saw a report on the American BBC broadcast that British sign language is developing new signs for the scientific discoveries that had none. It reminded me that American Sign Language and British Sign Language also have some differences in signs
  • It irks me no end that the self-proclaimed Apple Capital of the World has so few ciders available, and most of what is at the grocery store is imported from other states, and virtually no restaurants or bars have it on tap.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited December 2019
    You remind me that I'm shortly going down to visit friends in Somerset for the New Year who live not a laden swallow's flight from a cider farm that does the real, cloudy, unpasteurised, non-carbonated traditional cider and perry for stupidly low prices. The perry (there is no such thing as pear cider) is particularly good.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    The rise of artisanal ciders has been a thing here in recent years. It's on nothing the scale of Real Ales, but it's now possible to find pubs with taps that aren't just Strongbow (a popular, but imo disgustingly thin and fizzy cider). Admittedly the most common - Weston's and Aspall's - are also large producers, but they do at least produce a range of regionally distinct styles.

    All are, of course, regarded as the Antichrist by Real Cidermakers. Anytime we are in England, we hunt for these. They tend to be found in small villages, in properties with rambling sheds full of burbling carboys.

    We are currently drinking some from darkest Nottinghamshire, which is completely still, natural fermentation (no yeast) and all from organic orchards - some, he assured us, even have their own bees!
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited December 2019
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    On a different tack, I saw a report on the American BBC broadcast that British sign language is developing new signs for the scientific discoveries that had none. It reminded me that American Sign Language and British Sign Language also have some differences in signs

    As I understand it, each sign language is essentially a language, and not a representation of a spoken language. So this is not a case of dialect differences just because spoken American English and spoken British English are like that. There is no reason for sign languages to fall into the same language families as spoken languages do.

    A quick bit of googling led to the Wikipedia article on British Sign Language, which observes that American Sign Language is actually primarily based on French Sign Language, and is pretty much unintelligible to users of British Sign Language.

    EDIT: Turns out Wikipedia has entire articles on sign language families. The relationships are vastly different from the spoken languages.

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    And there can be various accents within a sign language. E.g., Gallaudet Univ. for the deaf has its own accent.

    **Hi, orfeo!** Good to see you! :)
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Golden Key wrote: »
    **Hi, orfeo!** Good to see you! :)

    Yo.

  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    Re French sign language:

    IIRC, that started out as the signing system used by Trappist monks in France. (Vow of silence.)
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    edited December 2019
    Golden Key wrote: »
    Re French sign language:

    IIRC, that started out as the signing system used by Trappist monks in France. (Vow of silence.)

    Well, Wikipedia doesn't go for that particular story...

    And it seems unlikely because that would be a signing system for French.

    Are you perhaps thinking of "Signed French"? Which is not the same thing as French Sign Language.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    But you're not clergy, the class about whom I posted.

    In response to mine about church musicians.

    Never mind.

    Suffice to say that even stripping out those events at other churches and straight concerts, I'll still end up doing more services at my own place than our priest.

  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    mousethief wrote: »
    I've read a historical fiction description of the making of apple jack (is that carefully circumlocuted enough?) which involves freezing hard cider and then removing the unfrozen alcoholic "heart" of the barrel. So basically way over-alcoholized hard cider.
    That sounds very familiar.
    I know that description of applejack production from Terry Pratchett's Equal Rites.

  • There was a time when I visited a 90-year-old man. Where did I find him? On a ladder picking apples at the top of one of his trees. He invited me in to try our his apple jack. He poured the liquid out into a kitchen glass. I drank that, and he refilled it. My head was spinning so much, I had to walk home and had to sleep it off.
  • The British conveyancing system does shut down for about 2 weeks at Christmas - when we bought our house a couple of years ago we were warned we wouldn't be able to complete at any point from the Thursday before Christmas until the new year. (They weren't doing anything on the Friday as they were shutting at lunch and there wouldn't be time to fix issues before Christmas.)
  • Something I noticed when I was in Germany and I also saw it on Downton Abby was people eating with the fork in the left hand. In North America, people will switch the fork from the left hand when cutting to the right hand when placing the food into the mouth.

    I thought it was something we did on this side of the pond, but why I never knew.

    Well, it turns out that at one time both Europeans and Americans would switch from one hand to the other; however, it seems Europeans stopped switching hands more or less out of economy--it takes less time to eat. Odd, because it always seems Europeans take longer dining times.

    For me, I am ambidextrous. I can eat both ways. My wife has learned to cut her meat and eat it with the fork in her left hand, but she cannot eat the rest of her food without moving the fork to the right hand.

    Have you noticed this?

  • carexcarex Shipmate
    Wet Kipper wrote: »

    In the US, is Cider synonymous with "Apple Juice?" (or pear or whatever fruit) ?

    According to my understanding of the applicable food labeling laws, "Apple Juice" is obtained by heating the fruit, and "Apple Cider" is obtained by pressing it.

    When we had apple trees we tried both, but mostly made juice as we didn't have regular access to a cider press.

    In practice, I suspect that pressing was more traditional, as it was easier (once one had a suitable press). We have specialized pots for heating fruit while catching the juice.

    As others have noted, at least since Prohibition the alcoholic version has been known as "hard cider" to distinguish it from the non-alcoholic variety.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    @Gramps49 I can't speak for Germany. European countries differ markedly on what is good manners. In the UK the normal, well mannered, practice, is to hold the knife in the right hand, the fork in the left and to use them together. I believe that is regarded as uncouth in the US.

    It is convenient to stick the fork into food items (using the left hand) so as to hold the items steady while cutting them with the knife (using the right hand). One uses the fork for transferring the food from the plate to the mouth. One does not - unless one is very uncouth - use the knife for this purpose.

    In the best circles, when using both items of cutlery simultaneously, the fork should only be used with the back of the fork upwards and the prongs pointing downwards.

    It is also acceptable to use the fork, this time with the front side and prongs upwards, in the right hand, more like a spoon, for food such as shepherds' pie that does not need a knife to cut it. However, if so, it is not acceptable to use one's knife at all. It should remain by the side of the plate, and as clean after the course as it was before it.

    What one can't do, which I think in the US is the best manners, is cut up ones food first with one's knife, then put the knife down, pick up one's fork with the same hand and use it to transfer the food into the mouth.


    As I've said, what is good manners differs quite markedly between countries. In the UK, a well mannered person when eating at table keeps their hands in their lap when not using them to eat food. He or she does not wave them around, putting those around them at risk of having their food knocked out of their mouths or their wine knocked over. Nor do they band their fists on the table to make their point. In France, a well mannered person has their hands on the table, one on each side of the plate. The joke was always alleged to be if men and women were seated alternately down the table, no Frenchman could be trusted to keep his hands to himself unless they were visible at all times.

    It's also much more important in many other countries that people are seated in order of precedence. Here, the best hostess aspires to seat people so that they will be next to others they will find interesting to meet.


    On cider and apple juice, here cider is fermented and the juice is extracted by pressing. Apple juice is a soft drink only. There is a separate beverage, apple wine, which is made by some home wine makers but as far as I know is not available commercially, where apple juice extracted by any means is fermented with a wine yeast and handled as a home made wine. I've drunk it. It can be excellent, but it's quite a lot different from cider. It's usually made from cooking apples, not specifically cider apples.
  • Use of cutlery owes quite a bit to what food is being eaten. For example, before forks people would cut up food (knife in RH on the whole) and a small peace of bread in the left to steady the food being sliced/cut. When spoons became more common the piece of bread was used in the left hand to guide food onto the spoon; thus when forks came to replace the bread they took the bread (left) hand to hold the food.

    But the variations in cutlery usage are endless. For example, some people in the UK have used (some still do) special knives and forks for fish while others stick to the old method of eating fish with two forks - it can be a class thing, a bit like whether one eats dessert with a spoon or a fork.

    The most important thing is that people should eat neatly, chewing with a closed mouth, not speaking with a mouth full of food, not littering the table-cloth with food and so forth. Above all, when using rimmed plates never ever pile the food beyond the central flat area of the plate - the rim is where one places salt, pepper and accompaniments such as horseradish, mustard, etc.
  • Above all, when using rimmed plates never ever pile the food beyond the central flat area of the plate - the rim is where one places salt, pepper and accompaniments such as horseradish, mustard, etc.

    I have never heard of this. Are you in earnest or taking the piss?
  • Deadly serious. Its the rule as followed by all my family, at school, etc. If a 12 inch dinner plate has a 1/1½ inch rim you have ample room for food. Maybe its something that started at a time of shortage - WWI? Of course, it could explain why some of us come from families where excess weight is not an issue ...
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Or spend much of their time hungry.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    @mousethief I agree with @TheOrganist on this. The rim is to keep food on the plate, stop it falling off and a convenient place to put salt, mustard etc. And salt should be placed in a little heap on the rim where one can conveniently dip food in it, and not sprinkled over the food randomly. That's why it's better served in a little cellar with a spoon, like mustard, and not a salt-pot with a nozzle.

    The nasty weird shaped plates that poncy restaurants go in for and which don't have proper rims mean that the salt gets washed into your gravy.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    I'm left-handed. When it comes to cutlery rules, all bets are off.
  • When I went away to Uni at the age if 18, I had only ever had non alcoholic sparkling apple juice which however my parents always called cider. I arrived in the big city where my older brother was a medical student. My 'evil' brother invited me to a med students' party on a particularly hot Summer night. Unfortunately the only drinks available were beer and alcoholic cider(which I thought was apple juice) You can guess what happened. I ended up drinking an entire bottle of cider and sitting crying on the sofa. My brother thought this was hilarious, but at least he eventually took me back to my student hostel. I haven't been game to drink cider since (nor have I been to another party organized by my brother).
  • Enoch wrote: »
    @Gramps49 I can't speak for Germany. European countries differ markedly on what is good manners. In the UK the normal, well mannered, practice, is to hold the knife in the right hand, the fork in the left and to use them together. I believe that is regarded as uncouth in the US.
    It’s not considered uncouth, at least not in my experience. It’s considered European, which may mean eccentric, but not uncouth. :wink:


    As for rims on plates, I’ll agree that food goes inside the rim, not on the rim (with the exception of bread if there’s not a separate plate for it). But I’ve never heard of putting mustard, horseradish, salt or pepper on the rim. That would get Strange Looks here. Butter yes, but not anything else, except your knife when you’re not using it.

    And I’m fascinated at the image of a heap of salt (or pepper) on the rim of the plate. That sounds remarkably unwieldy.

  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    Enoch wrote: »
    ...What one can't do, which I think in the US is the best manners, is cut up ones food first with one's knife, then put the knife down, pick up one's fork with the same hand and use it to transfer the food into the mouth. ...
    No, that is incorrect: The rule is to cut one piece at a time.

    I use my left hand for the fork and my right for the knife, generally speaking, because I find it easier and more efficient. (I also like to eat asparagus with my fingers, which would have horrified the Mater.) But it's not how I was brought up.

    Finally, food should indeed stay on the plate and off the rim, with the exception of bread and butter when no bread plate is provided.


  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited January 2020
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    ...What one can't do, which I think in the US is the best manners, is cut up ones food first with one's knife, then put the knife down, pick up one's fork with the same hand and use it to transfer the food into the mouth. ...
    No, that is incorrect: The rule is to cut one piece at a time.
    Yes, I somehow missed this earlier. Cutting up multiple pieces at one time is only acceptable when one is helping young children.

    (I also like to eat asparagus with my fingers, which would have horrified the Mater.) But it's not how I was brought up.
    My mother-in-law, who is quite the stickler for What Is and Isn’t Done (as was my own mother), says such otherwise deviations from What Is Done are quite acceptable, at least at home with family or close friends, “as long as you know better.” :wink:

  • RossweisseRossweisse Hell Host, 8th Day Host, Glory
    Agreed, Nick.
  • FirenzeFirenze Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    I eat my peas with honey
    I've done it all my life.
    It makes the peas taste funny
    But it keeps them on the knife


    (Anon, Trad)
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    This is all interesting. Two questions.

    1. If you have to put down one's fork, pick up one's knife, cut each item once and separately, then put down the knife, pick up the fork, transfer the food to one's mouth and then repeat the process, where does the dirty cutlery go while you're not handling it? Do you have the little rests for knives and forks that one sometimes encounters in France?

    2. If mustard, horseradish, salt etc don't go on the rim, where do you put them?


    I agree that it's difficult to eat asparagus 'naicely' rather than the obvious way. The same applies to drumsticks and bananas.
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    Rossweisse wrote: »
    I also like to eat asparagus with my fingers, which would have horrified the Mater.
    G.K. Chesterton wrote an essay on eating asparagus in buttery sauce. Apparently the done thing was to eat buttered asparagus in one's fingers; Chesterton puts this forward as an example of the rules having no purpose except to exclude those who don't know them, since the butter sauce made them slippery and one's fingers needed washing after.

  • Enoch wrote: »
    This is all interesting. Two questions.

    1. If you have to put down one's fork, pick up one's knife, cut each item once and separately, then put down the knife, pick up the fork, transfer the food to one's mouth and then repeat the process, where does the dirty cutlery go while you're not handling it? Do you have the little rests for knives and forks that one sometimes encounters in France?
    The knife is laid at an angle across the upper right rim of the plate when not being used. The fork is in the left hand when the knife is in the right hand.
    2. If mustard, horseradish, salt etc don't go on the rim, where do you put them?
    Condiments like mustard or horseradish go next to (or in some cases, usually informal, on) the food they’re meant to be eaten with.

    Occasionally, one might still encounter small dishes for salt placed just above the plate, but that is rare these days. Salt and pepper are generally in shakers or small mills that are placed on the table and passed and used as needed.

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Enoch wrote: »
    @Gramps49 I can't speak for Germany. European countries differ markedly on what is good manners. In the UK the normal, well mannered, practice, is to hold the knife in the right hand, the fork in the left and to use them together. I believe that is regarded as uncouth in the US.
    It’s not considered uncouth, at least not in my experience. It’s considered European, which may mean eccentric, but not uncouth. :wink:

    I'm relieved to read Nick's comment -- I was beginning to worry about what people on the west side of the Atlantic might have thought about my table manners.
  • You don't put down your fork unless you're taking a sip of water or getting up to use the head. You shovel the food into your mouth with the fork in your right hand. Then say you want to cut off and eat a piece of your steak. You transfer the fork to your left hand, pick up the knife with your right hand, cut off a piece of steak (still sticking to the fork). Set down the knife. Transfer the fork to your right hand. Eat the bite. It's designed to slow you down and not just shovel food into your mouth. Gives you a chance to have a conversation, or something. It's how I grew up. It feels comfortable.
  • And I must say it would never occur to me to create a pile of salt on the rim of my plate. If the left half of my steak needs salt, so does the right half, so shaking salt onto it works just fine, and ensures the amount of salt I get with each bite is much more consistent, I should think.
  • Believe it or not, I learned proper placement of cutlery and plates and condiments while at a residential Boy Scout Camp. They did teach us the "British" system at the time (1960ish). Relearned it in the military as "an officer and a gentleman."

    I had forgotten about keeping the fork tangs pointed down when eating with the fork on the left, but you are right, when Americans move the fork to their right hand, the tangs will get rotated to up before placing the food in the mouth.

    On a slight tangent, I had a Chinese friend point out that we Americans tend to put our right hand too close to the narrow tips than Asians do. It is rather uncouth to use chopsticks with your left hand. End of tangent.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    I have very fond memories of having a meal at babybear and the gremlin's lovely home. After a blessing, we four 'Muricans dug in and babybear's family sat and watched. She explained that they were hoping we would eat in the American style. We did not disappoint her! :blush:
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    LOL, jedijudy!

    I visited Europe briefly when I was a kid. Strange and fascinating manners: the knife/fork thing, as mentioned; eating *everything* with knife and fork (pizza, apples, even peeling a banana with knife and fork); etc.
Sign In or Register to comment.