Ship of Fools: St Saviour's, Leeds, England
The Mystery Worshipper
Shipmate
Ship of Fools: St Saviour's, Leeds, England
One of the nicest churches our Mystery Worshipper has ever visited!
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Comments
The congregation was usually in single figures - 4 or 5, plus priest and server - and the service would usually be followed by tea & cake.
Nowadays, we have Evening Prayer every Sunday, using the contemporary Franciscan Office, but I'm not sure what Father does as regards Benediction (which is advertised as being held on the first Sunday each month, and major Holydays). Alas, the congregation is still only 2 or 3 strong.
I can't help feeling that more could be made of our service, if (for example) it was sung professionally (or semi-professionally), and followed by a proper supper.
The present Roman rite, in its English version ,adds the words which many reformed Christians earlier on added as a sort of'embolism' to the Lord's prayer ,namely 'for Thine is the Kingdom,the Power and the Glory.
Interestingly ,at least for me, the Roman rite in its English version, retains the traditional 'thou' form - our Father who ART in Heaven,Hallowed be THY name etc. but goes back to the 'you' form for the doxology - for the kingdom,the power and the glory are YOURS.
Hooker's Trick asked what the Catholic version of the Lord's prayer is. I think that the answers given are the answer he is looking for, but there were and are a number of other minor changes from the standard Anglican form. I'll only mention one ;
Anglican Our Father WHICH art in Heaven...……archaic Tudor language
Catholic Our Father WHO art in Heaven...………….
In addition you have in Scotland the form which is popular with Presbyterians
Presbyterian Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors
Anglican/Catholic Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us
There are indeed minor variations to the Lord's Prayer in various rites, but the C of E in Common Worship Order One gives both the traditional and the modern form, to be used as required.
Aha! But that version is in BCP evensong also.
We are amused that 450 and more years on, the modern Catholic liturgy uses the translation by Cranmer, condemned as a heretic.
The embolism is odd. The present usage here in Catholic services is to stop at "But deliver us from evil" and proceed with a short prayer from the priest, followed by the congregation saying the embolism. It's so long since I've been to a Catholic mass said in English outside Australia that I can't remember if that is the pattern elsewhere. It seems different to that Forthview sets out.
IOW, stopping the flow of the prayer...
Apologies for any confusion caused!
The traditional Catholic version of the Pater Noster is not exactly the translation by Cranmer - the WHICH in the traditional Anglican version was very soon replaced by WHO in the Catholic version. I think,but don't know,that WHICH,as a relative pronoun referring to a person antecedent was already archaic certainly at the time of the publication of the 'King James'Bible'
I would be extremely surprised that there were not English versions of the Pater Noster known in England,before the official break with Rome.
The English version of the Roman rite is the only form mandated by the Catholic Church for celebrations of the Roman rite in English. I have never been to Australia but I can only think that a Roman rite Mass in English, certainly in a Roman Catholic church, would be exactly the same throughout the world.
without putting in all the words we have
Our Father,who art in Heaven...……..
but deliver us from evil.
The priest alone then says the embolism
Deliver us,we pray,from every evil,
graciously grant peace...……
as we await the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Then the people add the doxology
For the kingdom and the power and the glory are yours
now and forever.
ICEL ensures that there is a single RC translation throughout the Anglophone world.