Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Our grandson's other grandmother prefers to be called "Nanna" so grandson calls my wife by her first name Nancy. Me, I am just gramps.
  • The names Ian/Iain and Ann are distinct here, but were not distinct in mid-west USA when we visited. And Ann was said in almost 2 syllables.

    Here respectively EE-yun, EYE-yun, and Æn
    So was dog: daw-awg. It's a very short awe sound here.

    Very short here also. One syllable.
    Diaper is dye-per here.

    Similar.
    Though a purchase will also refer to getting a good hold with your hand on something: "I had a good purchase on it, but it let go anyway." not "anyhow".

    Purchase meaning grip is all but dead here. I've heard anyhow, anyway, and anyways.
    Garage. Which is a guh-RAJ. The j sounds like as in Jim or gym.

    Same.

  • I am wondering what different English speakers call their parents, and grandparents? My parents were Mommy and Daddy. Grandparents were Grandmother last name, ( I had two) and Granddaddy. (I had only one.) I continued to use these names even as an adult. It was a Southern thing I am guessing that I did not shorten to Mom and Dad.

    Mom and Dad
    Maternal: Grandma and Gramps
    Paternal: Grandma Lastname
    Birth father's parents: Grandma and Grandpa Lastname.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    Mum and Dad.
    Grandma and Grandpa
    Nanny and Nappa (my brother's attempt at Grandpa)
    Husband and I are known as Nan & Pa
    Omah & Opah (daughter's Dutch in laws)
    Nancy (my sister whose surname starts with the letter C)
    Honey (this lady always called hr children Honey and they transferred the name to her)
  • Our grandparents were Granny and Grandad on the one side and Gran and Papa (with the stress on the first syllable) on the other.
  • I had mum and dad and nan and grandad (southeast England with northern parents, I wonder if nan is a working class northernism in my case). My children called us mummy and daddy til their teens then mum and dad.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host, 8th Day Host
    Cathscats wrote: »
    <snip>Gran and Papa (with the stress on the first syllable) on the other.
    Likewise re stressing Papa. I always have to think twice to pronounce it Pəpah.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The /z/ phoneme is absent in Irish.

    Really? What about B'jesus?

    That's English.

    Must tell my cousins in Cork that - making sure I'm wearing body-armour first, of course :grin:

    Well, they can react how they like, but it's an objective fact that 'by Jesus' is a phrase in English, not Irish. The Irish form of Jesus is Íosa, for staters.
  • Yes. But the majority of Irish people speak English. Despite best efforts, the language has not enjoyed the revival hoped for and is slowly dying out.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The /z/ phoneme is absent in Irish.

    Really? What about B'jesus?

    That's English.

    Must tell my cousins in Cork that - making sure I'm wearing body-armour first, of course :grin:

    Well, they can react how they like, but it's an objective fact that 'by Jesus' is a phrase in English, not Irish. The Irish form of Jesus is Íosa, for staters.

    In this thread of all places, one should be way more careful than you are being in distinguishing English to indicate place of origin, English as a language (spoken in both England and Ireland and lots of other places), Irish as a language, Irish as an indication of origin...

    I've honestly no idea if you're trying to argue that somehow a phrase that's in English must have originated in England and in English English rather than Irish English, nor on what basis you're doing so.

    Because saying that a phrase is in the English language and therefore can't have originated anywhere but in England is, in this thread of all places, patently nonsensical.

    Or whether you're trying to argue that an English phrase can't be pronounced in a specifically Irish way, which is equally wrong.

    The fact that a phoneme is absent affects the way that Irish people pronounce English. Just as the presence/absence of various phonemes in your own variety of English will affect any language you try to learn and pronounce. This pretty much is what an accent is. As an Australian I'm pretty much cursed with dipthongs I have to fight against when speaking anything else. Irish people tend not to pronounce /z/, and it doesn't matter what language they're pronouncing, the same thing will tend to happen.
  • PigletPiglet All Saints Host, Circus Host
    My parents were Mum and Dad, my grandmothers were Granny Bain* and Granny Mac** and my grandfather was Grandad Mac or (occasionally) Pop.

    * my maiden name - Grandad Bain died before I was born

    ** short for McWhirter, my mum's maiden name
  • fineline wrote: »
    I just realized that the HTML codes for phonetic symbols haven't changed since I were a lad, hence, ə, and other delicacies. It's the future!

    I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?

    Yes, I got fed up with copying symbols, but your point about being exclusionary is a good one. I think I will give both, phonetic and an ordinary version, e.g., /ka:t/, or cart.

    Here's one for Karl, ɬ, or the Welsh lateral voiceless fricative. There is a Zulu voiced lateral fricative, ɮ, so study phonetics and see the world.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Sorry. I thought I was clearer than I was.

    By English I mean the English language, whether the Irish, US, UK or any other dialect groups.

    By Irish I mean the Irish language, Gaeilge.

    I thought that was standard usage.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    fineline wrote: »
    I just realized that the HTML codes for phonetic symbols haven't changed since I were a lad, hence, ə, and other delicacies. It's the future!

    I actually had no idea there were HTML codes for phonetic symbols - this is handy. Easier than copying and pasting each symbol from its Wikipedia page, which is what I have done in the past. Though I also tend to use regular alphabet letters here as an approximation for pronunciation, as I'm not sure to what extent people are familiar with IPA, and I don't want to be exclusionary. But I guess everyone knows the schwa. Here is a web page I just found of HTML codes for phonetic symbols. Is it just me or does the schwa symbol, ə, look quite a bit smaller than the English text?

    Yes, I got fed up with copying symbols, but your point about being exclusionary is a good one. I think I will give both, phonetic and an ordinary version, e.g., /ka:t/, or cart.

    Here's one for Karl, ɬ, or the Welsh lateral voiceless fricative. There is a Zulu voiced lateral fricative, ɮ, so study phonetics and see the world.

    Dw i'n gwybod am 'll' yn y Gymraeg, dysgwr ydw i.

    (I know about the 'll' in Welsh; I'm a learner.)
  • I remember as a kid noticing how people pronounced ll in Welsh names as tons of people in Lancs went to Llandudno, and Pwllheli for hols. Most people said it as l, of course, but I think Pwllheli is very Welsh speaking.  [pʊɬˈhɛlɪ] There used to be a big Butlins there?
  • When I were a lad, people in this part of Lancs (ie Liverpool) pronounced those two towns as Clandidno and Puckheli which may reflect a ghost of the once large Welsh speaking population here ( and accounts, at least in part, for our distinctive accent).

    And there was a big Butlins in Pwllheli, not sure if it's still open.
  • We said petheli, which was an attempt at a Welsh ll.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    We said petheli, which was an attempt at a Welsh ll.

    Ouch!
  • (Don't get started on Betsy Co-ed :smile: )
  • Is that a school in Rhyl?
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    (Don't get started on Betsy Co-ed :smile: )

    Argh!

    If people could just get their head round how 'y'/'yr' is pronounced so much pain could be avoided.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    (Don't get started on Betsy Co-ed :smile: )

    Argh!

    If people could just get their head round how 'y'/'yr' is pronounced so much pain could be avoided.

    Is it a schwa sound?
  • This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed,  [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.
  • The places that gives most non-Welsh real problems are Bwlch, Ynysbwl and Machynlleth :grin:
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    (Don't get started on Betsy Co-ed :smile: )

    Argh!

    If people could just get their head round how 'y'/'yr' is pronounced so much pain could be avoided.

    Is it a schwa sound?

    It is. I was once asked by a fellow walker if he was on the right path for Why Garn. He was indeed on a route which would take him over Y Garn...

  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    The places that gives most non-Welsh real problems are Bwlch, Ynysbwl and Machynlleth :grin:

    If we could get people to grasp that Welsh has more vowel symbols than English (a, e, i, o, u, w, y) rather than lacking vowels (as commonly claimed) they'd struggle a lot less.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed,  [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.

    ʊ is like the 'oo' in 'book' (in an RP accent).

    ɨ is like saying 'ee' with your tongue further back. From the Wikipedia page on this sound, it is like the vowel in 'lip' with a South African accent, or like the vowel in 'rude' in a South East English accent.

    Here is the Wikipedia page on IPA, so you see where all the sounds are in the mouth, and each sound has its own Wikipedia page.


  • Tree BeeTree Bee Shipmate
    Parental names: Mummy and Daddy then Mum and Dad.
    Grandma and Grandad, Nana and Daddad. Daddad died when I was three, so don’t know if this might have changed as I grew up.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    fineline wrote: »
    This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed,  [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.

    ʊ is like the 'oo' in 'book' (in an RP accent).

    ɨ is like saying 'ee' with your tongue further back. From the Wikipedia page on this sound, it is like the vowel in 'lip' with a South African accent, or like the vowel in 'rude' in a South East English accent.

    Here is the Wikipedia page on IPA, so you see where all the sounds are in the mouth, and each sound has its own Wikipedia page.


    Though 'coid' would be perfectly acceptable. The ɨ only occurs in Northern Welsh dialects, being replaced by i elsewhere.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    For me also, in the south of England, mummy and daddy, then mum and dad.

    My grandparents from the south of England were Granny and Grandad. They started writing 'Gran and Grandad' on cards we got older, but we still always said Granny and Grandad. My grandmother from the north of England (who was widowed long before I was born) was Nana. She also started writing 'Nan' in cards as we got older, but we still said Nana. We didn't see our grandparents often though. Maybe if they'd lived nearby and we'd often seen them, we might have started saying Gran and Nan.
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    KarlLB wrote: »
    fineline wrote: »
    This is the Wiki phonetic transcription of Betws-y-Coed,  [ˈbɛtʊs ə ˈkɔɨd], so w is given as ʊ, which I think is a slack u sound, and the y as schwa. The ɨ I don't know.

    ʊ is like the 'oo' in 'book' (in an RP accent).

    ɨ is like saying 'ee' with your tongue further back. From the Wikipedia page on this sound, it is like the vowel in 'lip' with a South African accent, or like the vowel in 'rude' in a South East English accent.

    Here is the Wikipedia page on IPA, so you see where all the sounds are in the mouth, and each sound has its own Wikipedia page.


    Though 'coid' would be perfectly acceptable. The ɨ only occurs in Northern Welsh dialects, being replaced by i elsewhere.

    Ah, okay. I don't know Welsh, other than a few random words, and the national anthem, though now I think of it, the woodland chapel at St Beuno's is Capel-y-Coed, and is pronounced capel uh coid. Though generally by English people with RP accents, so I never know how accurate it is!

  • KarlLB wrote: »
    The places that gives most non-Welsh real problems are Bwlch, Ynysbwl and Machynlleth :grin:

    If we could get people to grasp that Welsh has more vowel symbols than English (a, e, i, o, u, w, y) rather than lacking vowels (as commonly claimed) they'd struggle a lot less.
    I actually was taught as a child (in the US) that the vowels are “a, e, i, o and u, and sometimes y and sometimes w.”

    Y is frequently used as a vowel in English, especially at the end of words, such as “frequently.” And the sound represented by w in English is really more or less a very quickly pronounced “oo” sound. (Likewise, y as at the beginning of “yes” is more or less a very quickly pronounced “ee” sound.)
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Indeed. They're semivowels. In English Y is indeed frequently a vowel, but people tend not to be taught that for some reason. W in English can't form a syllable without another vowel; in Welsh it can, hence bwlch, cwm, trwm, cwmwl and so on.
  • KarlLB wrote: »
    The places that gives most non-Welsh real problems are Bwlch, Ynysbwl and Machynlleth :grin:

    If we could get people to grasp that Welsh has more vowel symbols than English (a, e, i, o, u, w, y) rather than lacking vowels (as commonly claimed) they'd struggle a lot less.

    Reminds me of the comedian Mark Steele berating the good citizens of Shrewsbury because they can't decide between themselves exactly how to pronounce the name of their town, while less than ten miles away across the Welsh border there were place names with two dozen consecutive consonants that nobody had any trouble pronouncing.
    I had mum and dad and nan and grandad (southeast England with northern parents, I wonder if nan is a working class northernism in my case). My children called us mummy and daddy til their teens then mum and dad.

    Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.

  • BoogieBoogie Shipmate
    We are Omi and Opa. :mrgreen:
  • Robertus L wrote: »
    Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
    How interesting , thank you. Both my parents’ families were Lancashire mill workers.
  • DooneDoone Shipmate
    We’re Grandma and Grandpa, my parents were Mum and Dad (Granny and Grandad to our children) and my grandparents were Nanny and Granfer (the other set both died before I was born, sadly).
  • Robertus L wrote: »
    Just to tie two threads together 'nan' meaning grandmother as used in some parts of England probably derives from the (north) Welsh word for grandmother nain.
    “Nanny,” “Nanna” and “Nan” are fairly common names for grandmothers around here (American South). My sister is “Nan” to her grandkids. (Her husband is “Pop.”)


  • PuzzlerPuzzler Shipmate
    I am Granny and my husband is Grandad. The other GPs are Grandma and Grandpa, but thanks to various remarriages, my grandchildren also have Nanny and Pops, and also Oma and Opa, who are their cousin’s grandparents. Anyone else, their step dad’s Mum, for example, is called by their first name.
    I called my parents Mum and Dad, and Mum’s Mum was Nan. She lived in the south of England. I also had Grandma and Grandad.
    When my daughter is cross with me, or exasperated, she calls me Mother. Otherwise it is Mum, but her children still call her Mummy at 15 and 12.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense

    The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>
  • finelinefineline Kerygmania Host, 8th Day Host
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense

    The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>

    You're thinking about spelling rather than the sounds themselves. There doesn't need to be a written 'w' for a 'w' to be present. Say out loud 'Who is this?' There is a 'w' sound between 'who' and 'is'. Say the 'w' sound slowly. You are putting your lips together, as in an 'oo' sound. That is why it is a vowel - it's an oo sound, but the lips are close enough together to make a consonant sound when switching to another vowel.

    Same with 'y.' It is an ee sound, but the tongue is so close to the top of the mouth that a consonant sound is formed when switching to another vowel. Say out loud 'He is here.' Between 'he' and 'is', there is a 'y' sound. It comes from the ee switching to another vowel.

  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    One of my strong memories of visiting northern Wales is visiting the lovely town of Conwy...

    ...and then having an English staff member on a train repeatedly try to correct me and tell me I'd been to Conway.

    I wasn't having it. I was staying at a Welsh guesthouse with a lovely woman who was from Conwy, thanks very much.

    (who was also giving me a crash course in Welsh, though I remember about 4 words)
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    More generally I'm kind of fascinated by the anglicization of place names. Once you're some distance from English-speaking lands, you have to be a large enough place to get your name changed.

    Having learned Danish, I now sometimes have to consciously make myself say "Copenhagen" instead of "København" so that people know where the hell I'm talking about. I don't think I have the same issue with any other city or town in Denmark because they were never significant enough to the English consciousness to be anglicized. There's just mispronunciations, such as my own former mangling of Odense as "oh-DENSE".
  • I like watching the reverse process, where American (and other) placenames get recast into Vietnamese. Thus "Ca-Li," "Chi-Ca" [go], San Lui, Tes-ak (Texas), and streets like "MAhK-noe-leeeer" (Magnolia) and MAHK-kuh-tuh (MacArthur).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense

    The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>

    H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second. It's one of Mother Nature's little tricks. Same with Hey you!
  • Gee D wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense

    The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>

    H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second.

    I would have said that in the first it's silent. It adds nothing that "a" doesn't already have.
  • mousethief wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense

    The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>

    H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second.

    I would have said that in the first it's silent. It adds nothing that "a" doesn't already have.

    Exactly!
  • mousethiefmousethief Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Pigwidgeon wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    I never heard that <w> was sometimes a vowel. But it makes sense

    The letter <w> is usually a consonant. It is a vowel only when it teams up with an <a>, <e>, or <o> to spell a single sound—as in the words draw, few, and low. So the letter <w> is a vowel only in the two-letter teams <aw>, <ew>, and <ow>

    H, w and y are sometimes vowels, mostly consonants. As in ah-ha! In the first use, it's a vowel, but a consonant in the second.

    I would have said that in the first it's silent. It adds nothing that "a" doesn't already have.

    Exactly!

    So it's not a vowel, any more than the "t" in "merlot" is a vowel.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.
  • orfeoorfeo Shipmate
    edited March 2020
    Gee D wrote: »
    It modifies "a" to almost an "ar" and lengthens it a bit.

    What, you mean it sounds like "father" where the "a" does the same thing on its own just fine?

    Or indeed, the second half of "ah-ha"?

    I think you should quit while you're only slightly behind...
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