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Heaven: 2021 Proof Americans and Brits speak a different language

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  • mousethief wrote: »
    First syllable of apricot (which takes the accent) has the æ vowel sound of app, sap, clap, rap, trap, map, zap. Here in the PNW of the USA.
    It’s more often “ape-ri-cot” in my corner of the American South, but one hears it with the æ sound as well.

    Meanwhile, the accent in “centrifugal” is on the second syllable, and for “marzipan,” one usually hears “mar-tzi-pan,” but sometimes “mar-zi-pan.”

  • In North America solicitor can be used to refer to someone who is taking orders for a business or someone who legally represents a client in a court.

    Do you know the difference between a lawyer and a solicitor? A lawyer is legally qualified to give legal advice, but not necessarily represent a person in court. A solicitor can give legal advice and represent a person in court.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    In North America solicitor can be used to refer to someone who is taking orders for a business or someone who legally represents a client in a court.

    Do you know the difference between a lawyer and a solicitor? A lawyer is legally qualified to give legal advice, but not necessarily represent a person in court. A solicitor can give legal advice and represent a person in court.
    This may be one of those things that varies from state to state. In a legal context here (North Carolina), “solicitor” was historically mainly limited to reference to a prosecutor—specifically what we’ve called the District Attorney since the 1960s used to be the Solicitor or State Solicitor.

    The only context in which I ever hear “solicitor” used in an American legal context is in the title “Solicitor General.” I’ve never heard a lawyer in private practice referred to as a “solicitor.”

  • We have a unified bar here in Canada - everyone is both a barrister and a solicitor - but in informal usage barristers litigate and advise on matters likely to lead to litigation, whereas solicitors do transactional work (corporate stuff, wills and estates, etc.).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Marsupial wrote: »
    We have a unified bar here in Canada - everyone is both a barrister and a solicitor - but in informal usage barristers litigate and advise on matters likely to lead to litigation, whereas solicitors do transactional work (corporate stuff, wills and estates, etc.).

    By and large the position in my State, and in Victoria. There are different professional associations for each branch. I am not sure about the smaller states.

    The Attorneys-General are all politicians, with no requirement that they be a lawyer. The Solicitor-General for the Commonwealth, NSW and Victoria is, in each jurisdiction, the second law officer of the Crown. Despite the title, each is a barrister (in fact an eminent barrister), and appears for the government in the most substantial non-criminal cases.
  • First definition for "solicitor" I ever learned was "call girl".
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    edited August 2020
    In England and Wales a solicitor is a lawyer who (broadly speaking) deals directly with lay clients, giving advice and acting on their behalf. A barrister is a lawyer who (broadly speaking) deals with lay clients through a solicitor and gives specialist advice and/or acts as their advocate in court. It used to be (maybe still is) the convention that a barrister wouldn’t see a client without a solicitor (or solicitor’s clerk) present.

    AFAICT the word attorney in the English legal system is only used for the Attorney General, or in the generic sense of someone appointed to act for another under a power if attorney.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    First definition for "solicitor" I ever learned was "call girl".

    A very old joke, perhaps even older than ?
  • la vie en rougela vie en rouge Purgatory Host, Circus Host
    For the sweet almond confection, I quite like Shakespeare's word "marchpane". I forget which play.
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Back in the day, when I was a solicitor, a married couple of American Mormons rented a house a couple of doors down; they were in Scotland for a year on church business. They were perfectly polite saying, Good morning" etc when we passed.

    A few weeks in they came up to me and apologised for being unfriendly and for not having stopped to chat to me. "We were told you were a solicitor" they explained "and we had completely the wrong idea about you!"

    They saw me going to and from work at 8.30 am and 5.30pm, wearing a suit and carrying a briefcase. I've always wondered what they thought was in that briefcase!

    The said that they had also misjudged someone who told them he couldn't stop to speak because he was on his way to the chippy. Apparently they thought a "chippy" was a brothel, and were relieved to discover it was a restaurant which sold fish and chips.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    Makes you wonder what sort of place they thought they’d come to!

    Maybe they’d had advice like Gerard Hoffnung’s advice for tourists in London (begins at about 5'15")
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    In England and Wales a solicitor is a lawyer who (broadly speaking) deals directly with lay clients, giving advice and acting on their behalf. A barrister is a lawyer who (broadly speaking) deals with lay clients through a solicitor and gives specialist advice and/or acts as their advocate in court. It used to be (maybe still is) the convention that a barrister wouldn’t see a client without a solicitor (or solicitor’s clerk) present.

    AFAICT the word attorney in the English legal system is only used for the Attorney General, or in the generic sense of someone appointed to act for another under a power if attorney.

    I would never see the lay client without the solicitor present; after all, I was briefed by the solicitor.

    As to attorney: until the advent of the fused profession (a fusion which has never worked in practice), people would be admitted as "attorney, solicitor, and proctor"; strictly speaking, solicitor applied in Equity proceedings, attorney in Common Law; and proctor in Probate. Those days are now history.
  • BroJames wrote: »
    AFAICT the word attorney in the English legal system is only used for the Attorney General, or in the generic sense of someone appointed to act for another under a power if attorney.
    Here, the formal distinction is “attorney-at-law” for someone admitted to the bar, and “attorney-in-fact” for the sense of someone acting under a power of attorney. “Attorney” is assumed to mean attorney-at-law, and is interchangeable with lawyer.

    We also have a unified bar in the US. The distinctions suggested by the terms “solicitor” and “barrister” do not exist here, and with the few exceptions I noted above for “solicitor,” neither term is used. The only other term that might be used is “counsellor” (or “counsel,” which is how lawyers are generally addressed in court); my license states that I am licensed as “Attorney and Counsellor at Law.” (Yes, there are two lls in “Counsellor.”)

  • Gee D wrote: »
    Marsupial wrote: »
    We have a unified bar here in Canada - everyone is both a barrister and a solicitor - but in informal usage barristers litigate and advise on matters likely to lead to litigation, whereas solicitors do transactional work (corporate stuff, wills and estates, etc.).

    The Attorneys-General are all politicians, with no requirement that they be a lawyer. The Solicitor-General for the Commonwealth, NSW and Victoria is, in each jurisdiction, the second law officer of the Crown. Despite the title, each is a barrister (in fact an eminent barrister), and appears for the government in the most substantial non-criminal cases.

    I used to think that the AG absolutely had to be a lawyer, until it was pointed out to me that a non-lawyer served in the position in Ontario as recently as the early 1990s. That strikes me as a very bad idea. It's very rare that an AG will appear personally in Court; I believe it's happened within recent memory, but I can't think of a specific case. Practically speaking, the Solicitor General position where it exists has to do with police and jails and the like; a number of governments have re-named the position to something more descriptive though the most recent government reverted back to "Solicitor General" from "Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services." It's all a question of what they want on their letterhead...

    BroJames wrote: »
    In England and Wales a solicitor is a lawyer who (broadly speaking) deals directly with lay clients, giving advice and acting on their behalf. A barrister is a lawyer who (broadly speaking) deals with lay clients through a solicitor and gives specialist advice and/or acts as their advocate in court. It used to be (maybe still is) the convention that a barrister wouldn’t see a client without a solicitor (or solicitor’s clerk) present.

    Some high-end litigation firms here use the word "Barristers" in their firm name to emphasize that litigation is all they do. But practically speaking a lot of what they do is stuff that would probably be considered solicitor work in the UK. It doesn't happen the other way around. Generically, we tend to be uninventive and generically call people licensed to practice law lawyers, or in professional settings "counsel" (singular or plural, no article).

  • For the sweet almond confection, I quite like Shakespeare's word "marchpane". I forget which play.

    Romeo and Juliet, I,5:
    Away with the joint-stools, remove the
    court-cupboard, look to the plate. Good thou, save
    me a piece of marchpane; and, as thou lovest me, let
    the porter let in Susan Grindstone and Nell.
    Antony, and Potpan!

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    Marsupial wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    Marsupial wrote: »
    We have a unified bar here in Canada - everyone is both a barrister and a solicitor - but in informal usage barristers litigate and advise on matters likely to lead to litigation, whereas solicitors do transactional work (corporate stuff, wills and estates, etc.).

    The Attorneys-General are all politicians, with no requirement that they be a lawyer. The Solicitor-General for the Commonwealth, NSW and Victoria is, in each jurisdiction, the second law officer of the Crown. Despite the title, each is a barrister (in fact an eminent barrister), and appears for the government in the most substantial non-criminal cases.

    I used to think that the AG absolutely had to be a lawyer, until it was pointed out to me that a non-lawyer served in the position in Ontario as recently as the early 1990s. That strikes me as a very bad idea. It's very rare that an AG will appear personally in Court; I believe it's happened within recent memory, but I can't think of a specific case. Practically speaking, the Solicitor General position where it exists has to do with police and jails and the like; a number of governments have re-named the position to something more descriptive though the most recent government reverted back to "Solicitor General" from "Minister of Community Safety and Correctional Services." It's all a question of what they want on their letterhead...

    I can't speak of other jurisdictions here, but can't remember the last time the NSW Attorney-General was not a lawyer, although many have been solicitors rather than barristers. It's just that there is no requirement that the A-G be a lawyer.

    The Solicitor-General would not be too concerned with police and gaols; they are separate government portfolios. The holder of that office would be appearing in the most important civil and constitutional cases. In any event, the Director of Public Prosecutions is the one concerned with the criminal side (for serious crimes), with ultimate responsibility for the work of the Solicitor for Public Prosecutions and those employed in that office, as well as for Crown Prosecutors, who are the barristers who appear in the superior criminal courts.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    orfeo wrote: »
    Have we discussed Zed or Zee already? Zed is in Shakespeare, so where does Zee come from?

    First attested to in the 1670s, apparently. Possibly to be more consistent with bee, cee, dee etc.

    Attested to in Britain?

    Yes.
  • Gee D wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    First definition for "solicitor" I ever learned was "call girl".

    A very old joke, perhaps even older than ?

    I wasn't telling a joke I was making an observation.
  • Apologies for my lapse a few posts back. I haad forgotten where I was, having made too many visits to Hell.
  • jedijudyjedijudy Heaven Host
    Thank you, Eirenist!
    jj-HH
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    mousethief wrote: »
    Gee D wrote: »
    mousethief wrote: »
    First definition for "solicitor" I ever learned was "call girl".

    A very old joke, perhaps even older than ?

    I wasn't telling a joke I was making an observation.

    Oh, I thought it was a joke - it used be a sort of one here.
  • Golden KeyGolden Key Shipmate, Glory
    edited August 2020
    In the US, a solicitor who goes door to door to sell Fuller Brushes, etc., may meet a sign saying "no soliciting"--i.e., "Go away, don't bother us, we don't want any". Missionaries probably included.

    However, someone charged by the police with soliciting is being accused of prostitution.
  • Penny SPenny S Shipmate
    I was once escorted into the local nick by a detective involved in investigating a theft from the school. I was there to identify the items as ours. Passing the custody sergeant, he announced that I was there for soliciting. I didn't quite have the chutzpah to say that that would be adding another £200 to the bill for legal fees, but was not at all happy about it.
    I did get my revenge later, when we had the computer back, and I got screen shots of all the files whose dates showed the evidence that the thief had, contrary to his claim, accessed the machine while he had it. He clearly had no idea that that could be done, and by a woman at that.
  • On the accent and emphasis on particular syllables. Gill H grew up in the same part of South Wales as I did, so she would say 'Centri-FEW-gal' because the accent is on the penultimate syllable in Welsh accents.

    That's what gives them their distinctive sing-song and lilting quality. It's why the place name Abertillery doesn't rhyme with 'artillery' but is pronounced something like 'Aber-til-LAIR-y' and Abergavenny is AbergaVENNy.

    It's not always as emphatic as that but it is detectable. My accent isn't as sing song as it used to be but you'd notice if you heard me talk. An American once told me that if I ever produced a CD of me reading poetry he'd buy it.
  • On stresses and emphases, an American friend told me she found David Tennant's Scottish accent difficult to follow and rather unattractive in 'Broadchurch'. One of the reasons she cited was that the emphases fell in unexpected places and in ways she hadn't heard before.

    I'd not thought about that much before, but the stresses do seem to fall differently in some forms of US English than they do in RP and other forms of UK English. I don't know enough about regional variations in US speech to put any geographical pattern on that, but my gut-feel would be that there are East Coast/West Coast differences at play, with Southern and Eastern forms of US speech echoing or sharing parallels with stresses found in UK speech rather more than West Coast US accents - but I might be completely wrong about that.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    edited August 2020
    This south of England English speaker would also place the stress on the third syllable of centrifugal (but the second of centripetal).
  • BroJames wrote: »
    This south of England English speaker would also place the stress on the third syllable of centrifugal (but the second of centripetal).

    What BroJames said. Although when I was at school, I pronounced "centripetal" with the emphasis on the third syllable. I think my pronunciation shifted in college.
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    BroJames wrote: »
    This south of England English speaker would also place the stress on the third syllable of centrifugal (but the second of centripetal).

    The English language is far from consistent! FWIW, I'd place the emphasis on the second syllable for both words.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    Some of the inconsistencies do, in fact, follow consistent patterns of inconsistency... it's all quite fascinating.

    I'm slightly obsessed with one part of the great vowel shift at the moment, how the letter "i" changed its value, but only in some words. For some reason it hit me just yesterday that "Christian" and "Christmas" still have the original sound, but "Christ" shifted.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited August 2020
    orfeo wrote: »
    Some of the inconsistencies do, in fact, follow consistent patterns of inconsistency... it's all quite fascinating.

    I'm slightly obsessed with one part of the great vowel shift at the moment, how the letter "i" changed its value, but only in some words. For some reason it hit me just yesterday that "Christian" and "Christmas" still have the original sound, but "Christ" shifted.

    Because it's short in the first two and long in the third. The GVS only affected long vowels. Hence also child and children.
  • orfeoorfeo Suspended
    KarlLB wrote: »
    orfeo wrote: »
    Some of the inconsistencies do, in fact, follow consistent patterns of inconsistency... it's all quite fascinating.

    I'm slightly obsessed with one part of the great vowel shift at the moment, how the letter "i" changed its value, but only in some words. For some reason it hit me just yesterday that "Christian" and "Christmas" still have the original sound, but "Christ" shifted.

    Because it's short in the first two and long in the third. The GVS only affected long vowels. Hence also child and children.

    Yes, like I said: the inconsistency actually does follow a consistent pattern.
  • TrudyTrudy Heaven Host
    On stresses and emphases, an American friend told me she found David Tennant's Scottish accent difficult to follow and rather unattractive in 'Broadchurch'. One of the reasons she cited was that the emphases fell in unexpected places and in ways she hadn't heard before.

    Wow -- no accounting for tastes. I would pay for David Tennant to read the phone book to me in his Scottish accent.

  • Indeed, although I'm not sure Tennant used his 'normal' Edinburgh accent in 'Broadchurch'. He's good at accents. Our Scottish shipmates would be able to tell us which particular Scottish accent he adopted for that.
  • Didn’t see Broadchurch, but Tennant’s normal accent, assuming he uses it on chat shows etc., is more west than east coast.
  • About emphases etc. I've always said: 'he wanted to dis-TRIB-ute his money'. Or 'she con-TRIB-uted to the fund'. But I notice on TV the norm seems to be (or have become) 'distri-BUTE' and 'contri-BUTED'. Is my way really weird?
  • Not to me.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Stress on first syllable of those for me, secondary stress on the final.
  • Stresses have changed a fair bit in UK English since the 1950s.

    An RP speaker back then would have said 'ges stove' for 'gas stove' with a fairly even stress throughout. These days is would be more like 'gAS stOVE' - there is a more marked emphasis towards the end of the words.

    Hence the observations Anselmina makes about 'distri-BUTE' etc. It's not universal of course, as KarlLB indicates but things seem to be heading that way.
  • rhubarbrhubarb Shipmate
    I'm quite bemused at the tendency of well spoken RP people to change the u sound in words such as put, cook and book into perk, cerk and berk. this was very evident when I watched a programme on tv about Captain Cook, the great explorer. It really sounded that the commentator was talking about Captain Kirk of Star Trek fame.
  • The playwright Alan Bennett tells a similar story about visiting a quaint rural parish church and chatting to a posh old lady in the churchyard after wards.

    When he observes how well kept it all is she complains that it would be better if they didn't have problems with the 'myrrh'.

    He's puzzled as it doesn't appear to be a particularly High and spikey parish. Then it dawns on him. She's referring to the 'mower', the 'grass myrrh ...'
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    One change in stress over my lifetime is 'research'. To me, that's 'rǝsearch' with the stress on the second syllable, whether a noun or a verb. People younger than me seem to pronounce it 'ree-search' with the the stress on the first syllable.

    The 'sort of general rule' would say that the first pronunciation would be for when it's a verb and the second for when it's a noun. I've not managed to notice whether there are people who do that, rather than use the same of whichever pronunciation they adopt for both.

  • There's all sorts of jokes about posh accents. In East of Scotland they get related to people in certain well-to-do areas of Edinburgh
    Sex: what the coalman uses to bring the coal
    Crèche : when the chauffeur loses control of the car.
    They stopped drinking tea and coffee when rhey thought one could "get BSE from the kettle" .
    etc., etc.
  • Enoch wrote: »
    One change in stress over my lifetime is 'research'. To me, that's 'rǝsearch' with the stress on the second syllable, whether a noun or a verb. People younger than me seem to pronounce it 'ree-search' with the the stress on the first syllable.

    The 'sort of general rule' would say that the first pronunciation would be for when it's a verb and the second for when it's a noun. I've not managed to notice whether there are people who do that, rather than use the same of whichever pronunciation they adopt for both.

    I remember reading about forty years that stressing the first syllable of 'research' was a mark of the vulgar, possibly in Jilly Cooper's book on Class.
  • balaambalaam Shipmate
    The general rule is that the stress is on the first syllable in nouns and second, or later in verbs.

    To desERT, but a DESert.
    To disTRIBute, a DIStriBUtion is how I'd pronounce it, distribUTE (italics for lighter stress, 'trib' is unstressed) sounds to me like a noun, a distribute, whatever that is.

  • Enoch wrote: »
    One change in stress over my lifetime is 'research'. To me, that's 'rǝsearch' with the stress on the second syllable, whether a noun or a verb. People younger than me seem to pronounce it 'ree-search' with the the stress on the first syllable.

    The 'sort of general rule' would say that the first pronunciation would be for when it's a verb and the second for when it's a noun. I've not managed to notice whether there are people who do that, rather than use the same of whichever pronunciation they adopt for both.
    Here (American South, but true of the US generally in my experience), your “general rule” is the rule—the noun is REE-search, while the verb is rǝ-SEARCH.

  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    As it is here.
  • They are both 'resEARCH' among 'the circles that I move in' (UK).
  • Mandatory. MAN-duh-tory. Man-DATE-or-ee.

    Continue. C'un-tin-you. CON-tin-you.

    The first for me for both.
  • How about 'Con-TIN-ue' or 'Man-da-TOR-y' or is that just Welsh people now isn't it?
  • MiffyMiffy Shipmate
    Wet Kipper wrote: »
    There's all sorts of jokes about posh accents. In East of Scotland they get related to people in certain well-to-do areas of Edinburgh
    Sex: what the coalman uses to bring the coal
    Crèche : when the chauffeur loses control of the car.
    They stopped drinking tea and coffee when rhey thought one could "get BSE from the kettle" .
    etc., etc.

    I know I’ve told this one a thousand times before, but when we moved back to the UK from France we were forever wondering just why we had to avoid a giant wasp ( “ Mind the guepe!”), on descending from tube train to platform.
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